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September 11th: The History of 9/11

Does he once mention the fire protection that covered all the supports ?

or did it get blown off with the draft of the towers falling next to it ;)

The fire was no hotter than the ones in the main towers at worst and we are to beleive that the plane explosion blew the fire protection of the steel.

well ok I can go for that

what happened to the fire protection on the core of the WTC7
 
techybloke666 said:
Does he once mention the fire protection that covered all the supports ?

or did it get blown off with the draft of the towers falling next to it ;)

The fire was no hotter than the ones in the main towers at worst and we are to beleive that the plane explosion blew the fire protection of the steel.

well ok I can go for that

what happened to the fire protection on the core of the WTC7

Beats me, I can't find any reference anywhere on the net to the exact structure or whether the WTC7 even had fireproofing. He is however claiming that the building collapsed in a different way to WTC1 and 2 with a supporting truss giving way rather than the columns bowing outwards.
 
His explanantion is very good and is the best I have read thus far.
WTC7 did have fire protection mind you which would have affected his overall schema.

good tho :D
 
I agree that the most likely explanation to Building 7 collapse is a controlled demolition. There was damage, but it was not that extensive - at least not the kind which could endanger its whole megastructure. It doesn't seem that the fire was very harsh, or that's not what videos suggest: only black smokes. Firefighters denied the existence of a furnace. Buildings 4, 5, 6 and 7 all were simirlarly damaged by scraps, had their foundations shaken after the earthquake and suffered fire. According to some firefighters testified, fires at buildings 5 and 6 were more important. Comparisons with other arsons do not abound in the official version's way. As with this venezuelian building where fire was more intense, and raged for a day. But it stood. There is this very suspect SILVERSTEIN's remark. Even FEMA had to acknowledge that its hypothesis was only remotely plausible.

Ithink taht this idea has other consequences. I think that it is unlikely that the decision to destroy the building was snap. To set charges this very day would have been difficult to hide, it needs lots of logistics. Of, if we admit a CIA involvement, the existence of its office inside Building 7 made it much easier to rig with explosives than the Twin Towers. And there is the possibility that it was pre-rigged. But the implications that it was a controlled demolition are upsetting. It would have been vital to the perpetrators that the collapse looks credible. They could have reached it only if the Twin Towers had previously been destroyed. Only one destruction would have looked suspect, it had never happened before after all. But how could have they been sure that the Twin Towers would crumble? There was no certainty that this combination of damage + fire would work.

GARCIA's take on it is interesting, it explains how the storeys would crumble so fast. It is maybe less convincing when it comes to the core. There is no way that the columns could have whithstood such strenght, but I'm not sure that they would not have slowed more the collapse. But its demonstration has flaws. It relies upon the same disputed statements the official commission failed to convincingly adress, and so won't convince sceptics (of the official version): we're not sure if the fire reached 1000°C. If it did, GARCIA had to acknowledge that it didn't last long. The absence of visible flames and the black flumes suggests that the arsons were on the wane, and were less than 700°C hot. The fire at the south tower had maybe almost gone out. If fire declined, steel had already begun to cool, and the official scenario can't work anymore. There is the problem of poor quality steel, but if the fire had almost become extinguished, it would change little.
I'm not saying that I'm endorsing the most extreme claims and discount completely the official version relating to twin towers. But it is not so solidly grounded. And there are a number of other anomalies: various claims by witnesses of having heard explosions before the collapse. Flares on videos, suggesting the existence of such explosions. The uncanny pattern of seismic waves, more intense before the rumble reached the ground. Claims by qualified witnesses of the presence of molten steel among the remains. The illegal removing of debris. May be the official version still holds water, but it has more shacky foundations than it is usually thought.
 
Hello Space Oddity.

This has been posted before and has been discussed at great length, from all angles by people on all sides of the argument.
If you scroll down the conspiracy threads to...

SEPTEMBER 11 – The History of 9/11

...you'll see that we've done 40 pages on the second thread of this provocative topic. It's quite a read.
 
Techybloke. Tell me your not buying the most laziest journalism on 911 in years?The dutch makers never explained the lack of debris on the pentagon lawn or why the remains are not consistent with a plane crash.

This is the most cowardly thread the website has had in a while. We can all go round in circles with the material and manipulate the material to fit our prejudice but when we accept that that a bunch of misfits helped to create such an epic tragedy is just blinkered.

I see myself has a Fortean and i see it has my duty to question any official line given to us by experts , since the explanations they give never stand up to close scrutiny.

Has Forteans we need to ask ourselves do we take pleasure and comfort in the lies the world gives us? To me this is a form of cowardice parading itself has laziness. Or do we question the information we are given and challenge it?.....
 
I see myself has a Fortean and i see it has my duty to question any official line given to us by experts , since the explanations they give never stand up to close scrutiny.

I would see "Forteanism" as being open minded as to an explanation and not being afraid to challenge the orthodox view on something when it doesn't make sense.

What I don't think this means is that Forteans should create a conspiracy theory over every event. At best, it makes us look silly. At worst, it leads to things like Holocaust denial.

At the end of the day often the simplest explanation is the correct one. In the case of the September 11 attacks, a small number of religious fanatics murdered thousands of innocent people. There's no conspiracy here - the planes were not remote controlled drones piloted by Zionist neo-cons. In the case of the Pentagon, it was hit by a plane. Not a missile or a truck bomb. If you seriously believe otherwise, try explaining the missing plane and passengers, because I have not yet heard one credible argument which explains this anomaly.

I do think there is a lot of mileage in examining the West's relationship (and in particular the Bush family's relationship) with the Saudis and the extent to which terror plots were played down in the past for fear of upsetting them. If you are looking for a conspiracy, I think that is probably the place to start.
 
you know I could have sworn I had posted this a few weeks ago

ah well here goes

http://www.911blogger.com/node/5541

Questions for the US Govt regarding AA77 Flight Data Recorder.

1. The current FDR shows 480' MSL True Altitude, too high to hit the light poles. What are your findings of True Altitude at end of data recording 09:37:44. Why did you provide a Flight Data Recorder that shows the aircraft too high without a side letter of explanation? How did you come to your conclusion.

2. What is the vertical speed at end of data recording :44. How did you come to your conclusion.

3. What is the Absolute Altitude and end of data recording? How did you come to your conclusion.

4. Why does the csv file show the altimeter being set in the baro cor column on the descent through FL180, but the animation altimeter does not show it being set?(This is a blatant cover-up to confuse the average layman in hopes no one would adjust for local pressure to get True Altitude. Too bad for them we caught it).

5. Why do the current G Forces for the last minute of data correspond to the changes in vertical speed, yet at end of data :44-:45 it shows an increase in vertical speed never accounting for any type of level off to be level with the lawn as shown in the DoD video?

6. Do you have any video showing a clear impact and/or of the plane on its approach to impact?

7. Why does your animation show a flight path north of the reported flight path?

8. Why are there no system indication of any impact with any object up to and after :44?

9. Why does the csv file and animation show a right bank when the official report requires a left bank to be consistent with physical damage to the generator?

10. How did you come to the conclusion of 09:37:45 as the official impact time?

11. What is the exact chain of custody of the FDR? What date/time was it found? Where exactly was it found? Please provide documentation and names.

12. Why does the hijack timeline show a 3 min interval for hijacking to take place? Why was Capt. Burlingame reported to have not followed protocol for the Common Strategy prior to 9/11?

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pentagon.html
 
George Monbiot takes us all tip toeing through the tulips again, as he does the bidding of his shape changing alien paymasters, in the Guardian:
http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/featurepages/0,,2006833,00.html

A 9/11 conspiracy virus is sweeping the world, but it has no basis in fact

Loose Change is a sharp, slick film with an authoritative voiceover, but it drowns the truth in an ocean of nonsense

George Monbiot. Tuesday February 6, 2007. The Guardian

There is a virus sweeping the world. It infects opponents of the Bush government, sucks their brains out through their eyes and turns them into gibbering idiots. First cultivated in a laboratory in the US, the strain reached these shores a few months ago. In the past fortnight, it has become an epidemic. Scarcely a day now passes without someone possessed by this sickness, eyes rolling, lips flecked with foam, trying to infect me.

Article continues
The disease is called Loose Change. It is a film made by three young men that airs most of the standard conspiracy theories about the attacks of September 11 2001. Unlike the other 9/11 conspiracy films, Loose Change is sharp and swift, with a thumping soundtrack, slick graphics and a calm and authoritative voiceover. Its makers claim that it has now been watched by 100 million people.

The Pentagon, the film maintains, was not hit by a commercial airliner. There was "no discernible trace" of a plane found in the wreckage, and the entrance and exit holes in the building were far too small. It was hit by a cruise missile. The twin towers were brought down by means of "a carefully planned controlled demolition". You can see the small puffs of smoke caused by explosives just below the cascading sections. All other hypotheses are implausible: the fire was not hot enough to melt steel and the towers fell too quickly. Building 7 was destroyed by the same means a few hours later.

Flight 93 did not crash, but was redirected to Cleveland airport, where the passengers were taken into a Nasa building and never seen again. Their voices had been cloned by the Los Alamos laboratories and used to make fake calls to their relatives. The footage of Osama bin Laden, claiming responsibility for the attacks, was faked. The US government carried out this great crime for four reasons: to help Larry Silverstein, who leased the towers, to collect his insurance money; to assist insider traders betting on falling airline stocks; to steal the gold in the basement; and to grant George Bush new executive powers, so that he could carry out his plans for world domination.

Even if you have seen or read no other accounts of 9/11, and your brain has not yet been liquidised, a few problems must occur to you. The first is the complete absence of scientific advice. At one point, the presenter asks: "So what brought down the twin towers? Let's ask the experts." But they don't ask the experts. The film-makers take some old quotes, edit them to remove any contradictions, then denounce all subsequent retractions as further evidence of conspiracy.

The only people they interview are a janitor, a group of firemen, and a flight instructor. They let the janitor speak at length, but cut the firemen off in mid-sentence. The flight instructor speaks in short clips, which give the impression that his pupil, the hijacker Hani Hanjour, was incapable of hitting the Pentagon. Elsewhere he has said the opposite: he had "no doubt" that Hanjour could have done it.

Where are the structural engineers, the materials scientists, the specialists in ballistics, explosives or fire? The film-makers now say that the third edition of the film will be fact-checked by an expert, but he turns out to be "a theology professor". They don't name him, but I would bet that it's David Ray Griffin, who also happens to be the high priest of the 9/11 conspiracists.

The next evident flaw is that the plot they propose must have involved tens of thousands of people. It could not have been executed without the help of demolition experts, the security firms guarding the World Trade Centre, Mayor Giuliani (who hastily disposed of the remains), much of the US air force, the Federal Aviation Administration and the North American Aerospace Defence Command, the relatives of the people "killed" in the plane crashes, the rest of the Pentagon's staff, the Los Alamos laboratories, the FBI, the CIA, and the investigators who picked through the rubble.

If there is one universal American characteristic, it is a confessional culture that permits no one with a good story to keep his mouth shut. People appear on the Jerry Springer Show to admit to carnal relations with their tractors. Yet none of the participants in this monumental crime has sought to blow the whistle - before, during or after the attacks. No one has volunteered to tell the greatest story ever told.

Read some conflicting accounts, and Loose Change's case crumbles faster than the twin towers. Hundreds of people saw a plane hit the Pentagon. Because it collided with one of the world's best-defended buildings at full speed, the plane was pulverised - even so, plane parts and body parts were in fact recovered. The wings and tail disintegrated when they hit the wall, which is why the holes weren't bigger.

The failure of the twin towers has been exhaustively documented by the National Institute of Standards and Technology. Far from being impossible, the collapse turns out to have been inevitable. The planes cut some of the support columns and ignited fires sufficient to weaken (but not melt) the remaining steel structures. As the perimeter columns buckled, the weight of the collapsing top stories generated a momentum the rest of the building could not arrest. Puffs of smoke were blown out of the structure by compression as the building fell.

Counterpunch, the radical leftwing magazine, commissioned its own expert - an aerospace and mechanical engineer - to test the official findings. He shows that the institute must have been right. He also demonstrates how Building 7 collapsed. Burning debris falling from the twin towers ruptured the oil pipes feeding its emergency generators. The reduction in pressure triggered the automatic pumping system, which poured thousands of gallons of diesel on to the fire. The support trusses weakened and buckled, and the building imploded. Popular Mechanics magazine polled 300 experts and came to the same conclusions.

So the critics - even Counterpunch - are labelled co-conspirators, and the plot expands until it comes to involve a substantial part of the world's population. There is no reasoning with this madness. People believe Loose Change because it proposes a closed world: comprehensible, controllable, small. Despite the great evil that runs it, it is more companionable than the chaos that really governs our lives, a world without destination or purpose. This neat story draws campaigners away from real issues - global warming, the Iraq war, nuclear weapons, privatisation, inequality - while permanently wrecking their credibility. Bush did capitalise on the attacks, and he did follow a pre-existing agenda, spelt out, as Loose Change says, by the Project for the New American Century. But by drowning this truth in an ocean of nonsense, the conspiracists ensure that it can never again be taken seriously.

The film's greatest flaw is this: the men who made it are still alive. If the US government is running an all-knowing, all-encompassing conspiracy, why did it not snuff them out long ago? There is only one possible explanation. They are in fact agents of the Bush regime, employed to distract people from its real abuses of power. This, if you are inclined to believe such stories, is surely a more plausible theory than the one proposed in Loose Change.

www.monbiot.com
Interesting how the 'Loose Change' phenomenon continues to rumble on, though.
 
Quake42 said:
I would see "Forteanism" as being open minded as to an explanation and not being afraid to challenge the orthodox view on something when it doesn't make sense.

What I don't think this means is that Forteans should create a conspiracy theory over every event. At best, it makes us look silly. At worst, it leads to things like Holocaust denial.

Its always struck me as strange that very often those who claim, sometimes very loudly, to be challenging the orthodox do so by simply replacing it with another orthodoxy.
 
Quite. It's OK to go along with the official line if you're happy with it. Likewise, you can agree with the spirit of an unorthodox theory without having to subscribe to every detail.

Orthodoxy tends to preclude shades of grey, and a lot of what we deal with on here is somewhere in the greyscale.
 
The next evident flaw is that the plot they propose must have involved tens of thousands of people. It could not have been executed without the help of demolition experts, the security firms guarding the World Trade Centre, Mayor Giuliani (who hastily disposed of the remains), much of the US air force, the Federal Aviation Administration and the North American Aerospace Defence Command, the relatives of the people "killed" in the plane crashes, the rest of the Pentagon's staff, the Los Alamos laboratories, the FBI, the CIA, and the investigators who picked through the rubble.

1. maybe two demolition experts = 2
2. Security form was linked to BUSH Brother ? maybe 4 in the know = 4
Mayor Guiliani ( do we need to dredge up his record ) =1
The geberal who told the troops to stand down lets be generous = 4
the FDA , only one person destroyed the tape conversations = 1
Norad = 3 on duty perhaps anyway they were only following orders =3
Pentagon staff ( why does he say this anyway ?) = only close to bush few
Los Alomos = unknown but 2 or three would have worked on it = 3
Investigators = I take it he means NIST and FEMA unclear
FBI - were told a pack of crap , and did their best to get prior warning to the world
CIA ( i'm not even going to answer that one )

Thousands indeed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
techybloke666 said:
The next evident flaw is that the plot they propose must have involved tens of thousands of people. It could not have been executed without the help of demolition experts, the security firms guarding the World Trade Centre, Mayor Giuliani (who hastily disposed of the remains), much of the US air force, the Federal Aviation Administration and the North American Aerospace Defence Command, the relatives of the people "killed" in the plane crashes, the rest of the Pentagon's staff, the Los Alamos laboratories, the FBI, the CIA, and the investigators who picked through the rubble.

1. maybe two demolition experts = 2
2. Security form was linked to BUSH Brother ? maybe 4 in the know = 4
Mayor Guiliani ( do we need to dredge up his record ) =1
The geberal who told the troops to stand down lets be generous = 4
the FDA , only one person destroyed the tape conversations = 1
Norad = 3 on duty perhaps anyway they were only following orders =3
Pentagon staff ( why does he say this anyway ?) = only close to bush few
Los Alomos = unknown but 2 or three would have worked on it = 3
Investigators = I take it he means NIST and FEMA unclear
FBI - were told a pack of crap , and did their best to get prior warning to the world
CIA ( i'm not even going to answer that one )

Thousands indeed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it would raise the suspicions of a lot more people though. being given orders that are contrary to common sense on so many occassions would produce many, many potential whistleblowers.
 
it would raise the suspicions of a lot more people though. being given orders that are contrary to common sense on so many occassions would produce many, many potential whistleblowers.

maybe thats why there are Pilots now asking questions that are hard to find answers too ?
 
why didn't the Federal Aviation Administration and the North American Aerospace Defence Command follow procedures throught ?

like they had done on countless other occasions before and since 911
 
techybloke666 said:
it would raise the suspicions of a lot more people though. being given orders that are contrary to common sense on so many occassions would produce many, many potential whistleblowers.

maybe thats why there are Pilots now asking questions that are hard to find answers too ?

which pilots? were they involved on the day?
 
techybloke666 said:
why didn't the Federal Aviation Administration and the North American Aerospace Defence Command follow procedures throught ?

like they had done on countless other occasions before and since 911

which specific procedures are you referring to?
 
1. maybe two demolition experts = 2

If the demolition of a normal size building takes x months to set up and y people to do it then how long did it take these 2 men to demolish the WTC? Years?
 
did you see my posts ?

they are pilots who have been looking at the evidence and the black box info released for the Pentagon flight.
 
techybloke666 said:
did you see my posts ?

they are pilots who have been looking at the evidence and the black box info released for the Pentagon flight.

as far as i can make out they weren't directly involved in 9/11 so they couldn't really be whistleblowers of the kind we were discussing earlier.


in any case this is a tiny number of pilots (including "steve, canada") compared with the number of pilots who haven't spotted the plan. i couldn't begin to answer those questions but then i'd have to take thier word for the various technical details. are you certain than no-one of a better aviatory stripe than myself might actually have tried to answer their questions?
 
Mike_Pratt33 said:
If the demolition of a normal size building takes x months to set up and y people to do it

That's to do the job to civie street safety and working practice standards and to ensure that debris and dust doesn't go everywhere, ie a civilian demolition of a large bridge might take months but a couple of SAS men could do it in a night.
 
in any case this is a tiny number of pilots (including "steve, canada") compared with the number of pilots who haven't spotted the plan. i couldn't begin to answer those questions but then i'd have to take thier word for the various technical details. are you certain than no-one of a better aviatory stripe than myself might actually have tried to answer their questions?

not that I can find Ted no.
and I agree they are too technical for non pilots to answer.

it would seem to me that the Blackbox data has been tampered with to almost fit in with the theory, but small mistakes had been made and spotted by techy pilots interested in 911.

could be rubbish I dunno, but it needs further investigation IMHO.

I mean the Government investigators said the Pentagon Black boxes were destroyed at first.
Then someone in france said the FBI had sent them to them for investigation.
The FBI said they didnt
then they turn up like Magic
now it seems the data on them isnt quite right somehow.
 
If the demolition of a normal size building takes x months to set up and y people to do it then how long did it take these 2 men to demolish the WTC? Years?

Nothings impossible Mike and they had two weeks.

anyway can you sensibly explain the picture below other than demolition

9-11_thermite1.jpg
 
Cutting through beams with actelylene torches to try to search the debris (you're on about the slanting cut).
 
Response: Don't believe the official 'conspiracy' theory

We have to ask who stood to gain the most from the appalling events of 9/11, says Tim Sparke

Tuesday February 13, 2007
The Guardian

George Monbiot's explicit attack on the film Loose Change (A 9/11 conspiracy virus is sweeping the world ..., February 6) has no basis in fact. While we accept that there are flaws in the current version of the film, we stand by its overarching theme that the official "conspiracy" theory of 9/11, constructed in the hours, days, weeks and months after 9/11, is false.

In uncritically endorsing the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) report, Monbiot neglects to say that the collapse mechanism for the entire World Trade Centre building was never documented by NIST - it didn't see it as its job. Additionally, in accepting that the towers collapsed at virtually free-fall speed ("the weight of the collapsing top storeys generated a momentum the rest of the building could not arrest"), Monbiot shows no awareness that this explanation violates the law of conservation of momentum.

Monbiot also appears oblivious to NIST's failure to explain that, although fire could not have melted any steel, there were pools of molten metal under the rubble, and these pools remained molten for weeks after the collapse; that dozens of people, including firefighters, news reporters and fleeing victims, all reported massive explosions; the clear video evidence of explosions taking place; that virtually all the concrete was pulverised into tiny particles; the apparent disintegration of the central steel core; and the destruction of all the evidence from America's biggest crime scene, which was covertly transported to Asian and African shores before any forensic examination could take place.

Monbiot then endorses the idea that Building 7 collapsed because "thousands of gallons of diesel [were poured] on to the fire" - oblivious to the fact that, even if an enormous fire could have caused a symmetrical collapse (which required all 81 steel columns to miraculously fail simultaneously), there was, as photographs and eyewitnesses reveal, no enormous fire. Monbiot also appears unaware that several engineers and demolition experts, after studying videos, have declared that this collapse can only have been caused by explosives.

Monbiot suggests that thousands of people must have been involved in the conspiracy, as if the official story must therefore be true. We have no clue as to how many (though some suggest probably fewer than 1,000); but wasn't the Manhattan project, involving 100,000, kept secret, even from Vice-President Truman, until weeks before the first atom bomb was dropped?

Monbiot then suggests that CounterPunch - by refuting the film's claims - has to be correct, because it is a left-leaning newspaper. But acceptance of the official "conspiracy" theory is not a left or right political issue. It is about whether we should accept unconditionally a story which defeats the laws of physics, denies the abundance of witness testimony, and rejects video evidence put forward by an organisation, which, in hindsight, we know had the means, motive and opportunity, and also has a record of being economical with the truth.

We agree that our movie can't answer all the questions that millions of people now have - but the fact that Loose Change is the most downloaded film in internet history is the strongest argument for an honest public debate, and a truly independent inquiry. As we say in the 9/11 Truth Movement: ask questions, demand answers, investigate 9/11.

Tim Sparke is executive producer of Loose Change Final Cut. [email protected]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... 45,00.html
 
crunchy5 said:
Mike_Pratt33 said:
If the demolition of a normal size building takes x months to set up and y people to do it

That's to do the job to civie street safety and working practice standards and to ensure that debris and dust doesn't go everywhere, ie a civilian demolition of a large bridge might take months but a couple of SAS men could do it in a night.

But isn't a precise civilian demolition just what the conspiracy is claiming? ie collapsing the building into its own footprint. If all it required to collapse the building was a sufficiantly large explosion then why didn't they do that with a truck bomb or why not drive a plane into the building?
 
techybloke666: "Then someone in France said the FBI had sent them to them for investigation.
The FBI said they didn't.
then they turn up like Magic
now it seems the data on them isnt quite right somehow."

The problem with the crash on the Pentagon is not that there is no evidence that something else than an airliner crashed. It is that there is still no evidence taht an airliner crashed. Five years ago, Thierry MEYSSAN's ideas looked ridiculous. It was logical to think that evidence would be released to establish once and for all that Flight AA77 collided with the Pentagon. But remarkably, there is yet no.such evidence. The new hints suggest that MEYSSAN was right, how unimaginable it seems.

-Flight AA77 is a black hole. It vanished for nearly half an hour. The first reports said that it maybe crashed in Kentucky. Alone of the four, there were no phone calls, except a dubious one to a Bush official. According to Theodore OLSON, its passengers were alone to be told by the hijackers that they were going to be sacrificed. In contradiction with everything we know about their modus operandi. All of this suggests that 'Barbara Olson's' call is a tall tale.

-When it was spotted again, 29 mn later, according to the official version, it was not identified as AA77, but as AA11 (despite the fact that it was supposed to have crashed in the WTC!). The official version is very confusing, and unreliable. But this strange discrepancy is unexplained. Well, not so important as there is no evidence that any commercial plane (AA77 or AA11) crashed into the Pentagon.

-The official depictions of the crash are a true carnival of farce, no need to mention the disappearing and reappearing black boxes: the plane is supposed to have burnt so hot that metals were vaporized (!), despite the fact that no hydrocarbon fire is higher than 1100°C. But nonetheless, the authorities were able to identify the passengers! But was it via DNA prints or fingerprints? The absence of the reactors is explained by the fact that the crash was so strong they were disintegrated. On the other hand, the lack of damage on the facade is explained by the plane being slowed by its bouncing on the lawn! It is told that the wings politely followed the fuselage into the hole. According to the laws of physics, the contrary should have happened: the tip of the wings should have been put forward. And I don't speak of the smallness of the entry hole, and explanations suggesting that the empenage hung its head.
-Other anomalies: the angle of approach forbids that an airliner could have hurt the poles. And now as five years ago, there are yet no photos showing significant wreckage or any mark on the lawn. And they were not modified: TV reports a few minutes later did not show them.

-And there are the problem of witnesses. Proponents of the official version say sometimes that they are reliable, sometimes that they are not, according to their needs. But psychology of perception doesn't support their stance. Witnesses were maybe influenced by media to 'see' a commercial flight where there was none. And sometimes, it is true that the identification to AA77 was put forward by a journalist. Maybe it's going too far to say that all testimonies are explained like that, I believe that many people did see an airliner above Washington before the crash, their testimonies are consistent. There are coherent patterns among non-influenced witnesses: an airliner above Washington, vanishing behind buildings (but no one seeing directly the crash). A smaller craft, like a military plane or missile with wings, near the ground, some did see it crash (they include qualified witnesses). And there are those who saw two planes in approach of the Pentagon, only one of them crashing in the Pentagon while the other turned away. In a picture strangely reminiscent of Operation Northwoods. Sightings of a Hercules C-130 happened only later, but sometimes added confusion.

Added to the falsification of the "reappeared" black box, the evidence suggests that no airliner crashed on the Pentagon, but a smaller aircraft filled with explosives. And that there was a substituion. Now, there are practical objections. Where did AA77 go? Why not manipulate terrorists to crash a plane in the same way than with the Twin Towers? I don't know. For the first, some give an answer: crew and passengers were abducted and probably killed. As for the second: a possible explanation is that while civilians are seen as expendable, a true crash on the Pentagon would have caused tremendous damages and many victims. Military victims, this time. Hence the simulation of a crash, hurting the façade with a small plane and causing relatively minor damage, as opposed to a collision on the roof, much easier but more destructive.

My mind changed relating to the three WTC buildings. Converging evidence shows that they were mined: tens of wintensses heard explosions: firefighters, policemen, WTC staff, reporters. Some of them were videotaped or recorded. It was told that the evidence was put out of context, but it was not. And at the time of the collapse, the fires were not hot enough to soften the steel.
 
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