Sitting On Offence

[Schwadevivre]

This is too serious for chat and not News enough for Mainstream News
It Shows up in the Reddit Thread Women of Reddit, when did you first notice that men were looking at you in a sexual way? How old were you and how did it make you feel?

I was already aware that harassment was pretty rampant but thought that only a very few women were so objectified but from this you realise that many are regarded sexually at ages as young as 8, 9 and 10. This is a massively long comment thread (over 21,000 comments) and most responses seem to be from American women, but a few are probably British. The actions that these women recall would be inappropriate if directed at an adult let alone peripubescent children.

Some samples:

Comment by Reddit User Intoon
I was 8, had wandered away from my mom at Kmart. A creepy 40 something white guy in construction attire stared at my chest and butt, and followed me all around the store. I even went into the changing room to get away from him (stupid idea I know, but c'mon, I was 8!) he FOLLOWED ME INTO THE CHANGING ROOM. Tried to pull and shake the locked stall door open that I was hiding behind. I sat, curled into a ball on the changing seat, staring at his dirty work boots just on the other side of that door, terrified. Thank god a woman walked in to try on some clothes, saw him, and screamed at him to get out. After he had left, I ran out and found my Mom.

From Reddit User Cuddlebunz
I remember the first time pretty clearly. I was a mix of scared/angry/confused and I was only twelve years old.

I was waiting at a bus stop alone, when a guy who was probably in his late twenties/early thirties came riding past on his bike.

He slowed right down and whistled at me. When I ignored him, he turned on his bike and slowly rode right past me. I remember being pretty freaked out at how he leered at me.

Twelve year old me had no idea what to do. He turned around and rode by again. Luckily a woman showed up to the same stop so I moved to stand near her. He finally rode off when he saw I wasn't by myself anymore (or maybe was bored I wasn't responding?)

From user WinstonScott
When I was 12, my mom and I were at a small, carry-out only restaurant waiting for our order to be ready. This older guy, who looked like he was about 20 came in. He just stared at me, open-mouthed. I had to walk past him to fill my drink, and he said, "Hey baby. Give me some of that T & A." I didn't even know what T & A was! He even positioned himself so I would have to walk past him again when we left the restaurant, and he made another comment where he called me "Princess."

User Justkeeper91
I was about 10. I was terrified. Who the fuck cat calls/follows a 10 year old? I'm more than sure my lion king back pack and light up shoes were an indicator I wasn't of age. "you're so pretty I just want to talk to you." While walking home from the bus stop. Terrifying. Sadly men became more aggressive once I turned 14, I literally had a guy chase me down the street. I hat to run to a neighbors house.

h/t to "We Hunted the Mammoth"

 

[OneWingedBird]

Sadly, I am not sure there are any adult women who haven't been subjected to some sort of inappropriate sexual behaviour by the time they reach adulthood. That is just people.

 

[GeorgeP]

We do live in a very disturbing world at times.

 

[Ulalume]

"We hunted the mammoth" - was that formerly the Manboobz site? I certainly recognize Dave Futrellle.
The reddit thread itself...oh, it doesn't surprise me at all, not at all. I've got similar stories, and so had all my female friends back in fourth and fifth grade, too. It was part of life we had to deal with and work around the best we could, something to always keep in mind, always be alert.

This is how I really began to understand "white privilege" actually (which a lot of Caucasian Americans don't realize they have). I don't have to think about my race every time I leave the house, or ever, really. I do have to think about being a woman, every time I step outside, walk alone, hear a car passing. Acutely aware and alert. I asked my husband how often he had to be this aware of being a man, and he said "never". He didn't realize that it was something a woman would have to constantly keep in mind. Most Caucasian Americans don't realize that non-white Americans have to be aware of their race all the time, whether they want to be or not.

Sorry for the digression, I was just shuddering to think about what certain elements* of the men's rights movement, loveshy, incel, true forced loneliness and the others are saying about this. The incel forum I helped out on for years, this reddit would have caused a high alert amongst the mods and advisers for the severe reactions it would cause. It sets my nerves twanging. I'm so used to explaining i(n a logical way, that might have half a chance of being understood) why a woman who runs from a man hiding in a dark alley isn't just being " too picky". I have to remind myself I'm not fighting that battle these days.

*if readers are not aware of these elements already, Do yourself a favor and don't go looking. Not if you want to want to retain your faith in humanity.

 

[Schwadevivre]

That is just people

But it shouldn't be, Dammit!

I'm certain that most of this behavior comes from a minority. Those men not in that minority should try to speak up at the time this disgusting behaviour occurs.

 

[Schwadevivre]

"We hunted the mammoth" - was that formerly the Manboobz site?

Yup, it was indeed Manboobz

 

[Novena]

I wonder if it's a predominantly American thing too, Schwadevivre. I have of course experienced this type of thing (unwanted attention, the very occasional comment etc.) but absolutely not to the extent that seems to be happening in these cases, and I think it would be unusual to find a majority of women in the UK who recognise this as happening regularly to them. I'm unsure though, since people don't tend to talk about this kind of thing easily, and perhaps I've just led a very sheltered life!

I was once physically manhandled and pushed around by the manager of a cafe in Spain, for reasons that I still don't quite understand to this day as the situation was very confusing (I think he thought I was a TEFL teacher trying to use the toilet without buying a coffee - because obviously that calls for physical assault ). That shook me up, but it was definitely an aberration, not a regular event.

 

[Rosebud]

But it shouldn't be, Dammit!

I'm certain that most of this behavior comes from a minority. Those men not in that minority should try to speak up at the time this disgusting behaviour occurs.

In several of those stories the girl's mother was nearby, why didn't they intervene? I think there is the same reluctance to get involved that often occurs when you see a couple arguing, there is every chance they will both round on you.

 

[Schwadevivre]

In several of those stories the girl's mother was nearby

In at least 2 of the stories on Reddit the girls mother told off the girls for wearing "slutty" clothes. In one the girl was wearing a T-shirt and jeans, in the other it was clothes that her mother had recently purchased. Sometimes comments the mother just said something like "... better get used to it, it happens all the time,"

 

[RyoHazuki]

My OH had unwanted attention from an older man when she was obviously pre-pubescent. At the time, she just ran home, but didn't think to tell anyone (and I'm not sure that her parents would've tried to get the police involved if she had told them - no reflection on them, I think people just tried not to think about or dwell on it years ago).

In terms of other men intervening, it's a very tricky area. If I saw a lone female child being 'targeted' by an adult male, I might question their intentions, but it would depend on whether there were other people around, and whether I could verify my level of involvement. It's a horrible fact of modern life that any contact between an adult male and an un-related child is viewed with mistrust, even if the adult male is trying to offer some form of protection.

 

[Rosebud]

My OH had unwanted attention from an older man when she was obviously pre-pubescent. At the time, she just ran home, but didn't think to tell anyone (and I'm not sure that her parents would've tried to get the police involved if she had told them - no reflection on them, I think people just tried not to think about or dwell on it years ago).

In terms of other men intervening, it's a very tricky area. If I saw a lone female child being 'targeted' by an adult male, I might question their intentions, but it would depend on whether there were other people around, and whether I could verify my level of involvement. It's a horrible fact of modern life that any contact between an adult male and an un-related child is viewed with mistrust, even if the adult male is trying to offer some form of protection.

I actually began to type something similar and then deleted it. I would be very worried if any of my male relatives tried to intervene, as they could well be the ones who end up accused of something, although they probably would act anyway - they are husbands and fathers.
Some of the fathers of the girls being abused in Rochdale threatened to do something about it since the Police wouldn't and were warned they would be arrested if they harassed the paedos!

 

[Schwadevivre]

Yet more examples, many British, on Everyday Sexism

Mairi2014-09-25 08:19
Male friends telling me they thought I was a lesbian because I had short hair, that I'm much more 'feminine' with long hair.
Being on a date and the guy laughing in my face loudly because I like snowboarding and rugby because "it's a man's sport" and ordering me a pint when I asked for a half.
Age 15 being told by a boy in my class that he'd go out with me if my boobs were bigger. (I never asked for his opinion and didn't want to go out with him!)

Alice, via twitter2014-09-24 23:28
Having the enjoyment of wearing a new dress ruined by having five men jeer at you continually down the street

John, via twitter2014-09-24 23:32
Wondered why white van driver hitting his horn behind me, realised we were passing schoolgirls. Felt dirty, how do you cope?

hello2014-09-24 20:29
A man touched my arse on a train repeatedly. When I was fourteen. Fourteen. It was horrible and I couldn't do anything but slightly angle myself away. It's nothing extreme but it made me feel so uncomfortable..

 

[drbastard]

In terms of other men intervening, it's a very tricky area. If I saw a lone female child being 'targeted' by an adult male, I might question their intentions, but it would depend on whether there were other people around, and whether I could verify my level of involvement. It's a horrible fact of modern life that any contact between an adult male and an un-related child is viewed with mistrust, even if the adult male is trying to offer some form of protection.

This is right. The problem is this stuff goes on in plain sight and the perpetrators make damn sure they're not noticed by other men. When I was about 12 I had this pervert come up to me at a bus station and masturbated as he was talking to me. (laughably a textbook perv, with a big coat and bottomless pockets..) I knew what he was doing, but he was surrounded left and right by people who either didn't pay attention to him or just thought he was making harmless conversation.

 

[dannyagger]

Sadly, I'm not surprised in the slightest.

 

[Yithian]

Me neither.

An interesting question would be: has such horrible behaviour become more common than in the past or do we just here more about it?

 

[poozler]

Me neither.

An interesting question would be: has such horrible behaviour become more common than in the past or do we just here more about it?

I would say we just hear more about it now. The following is just my personal experience living in three countries and six cities over a 57-year life:

My mother told me she was sexually assaulted (digitally raped) by a family 'friend' when she was little (probably around mid to late 1920s). Never reported because girls didn't do that then.

I have been sexually assaulted as follows: 1) a man on a tram was sitting behind me in an old tram that had room between the wall of the tram and my seat. He slipped his hand through the space and grabbed my left boob. I said nothing (too shocked) and he quickly left the tram. I was in my early 20s. 2) a man walking along the sidewalk grabbed my crotch as he passed me, sticking his finger up my vagina through my tights. I think I was 27. He and his mate laughed when I whooped and turned around to look. They just walked away and I continued along. I never reported these incidents. I simply assumed that the police would dismiss it as nothing since I was not in the least bit traumatized by the assaults (and I wasn't either; some women just react differently). 3) at a country dance, I was mauled and threatened by a drunken farmer with whom Irefused to dance (i was about 24). 4) I was once jumped by 3 drunken men who mauled me slightly but luckily they were very drunk and it was very icy. i pushed them and they all fell down. I told my husband but nobody else 'cause it seemed pointless. I was 40.

I have had 4 friends (not just 'women I know') vaginally raped (aka 'really raped') by complete strangers (that classic 'drag her off the street and drag her into an alleyway' scenario), one of whom suffered the ordeal of being kidnapped and driven around the city over the course of hours, being intermittently sexually assaulted until the man finally let her go. Of those 4, 2 reported it, but not the women who was kidnapped. She was terrified and ashamed.

Most women I know have had unwelcome sexual activity forced upon them. Hooting and hollering after women (especially when we are young) is the norm. I think you would be surprised both by the women who do not report assaults and those who are not seriously affected by them. Every women is different, so one woman might be seriously traumatized by a man following her at night, while another will brush off an outright rape. (Indeed, one woman I know actually sat down with her rapist and had a talk with him about HIS problem because HE was quite upset. I couldn't do that!)

 

[OneWingedBird]

My mother told me she was sexually assaulted (digitally raped) by a family 'friend' when she was little (probably around mid to late 1920s). Never reported because girls didn't do that then.

My mother claimed that she was flashed at as a child, cira 1950s, by a guy on a bicycle who had on a dirty mac that he opened to reveal an erection with a ribbon tied around it. Now that I actually type that I'm wondering how he rode the bike in a mac, that aside, she never told her parents as they would have battered her for it.

Not counting a few times I've been felt up felt up in nightclubs, I've been indecently assaulted twice as an adult, didn't report either, once was by the owner of a sex shop I went into who locked the door and propositioned me to give him a blow job, the other time was by a doctor.

Not counting family members it's once as a child that I recall, age maybe 12, some nonce claimed to be lost and tried to lure me to a remote spot on the edge of the city centre, he didn't manage to do more than a bit of touching though I shudder to think what would have happened if it'd fallen for his trick. Never told my parents as they would (surprise) have battered me for it.

Oh, that's not counting the time I got off the bus one night to see a guy stood at the stop who had been peeing, then he stopped, turned to face me and starts waving his knob at me. Rang the police and they said it wasn't an offense because he had been peeing first.

You can't stop people like that, try as you might, you can't even slow them down.

 

[Mythopoeika]

I'm shocked and horrified.

 

[poozler]

I'm shocked and horrified.

Me too. I am very glad that more girls and women have thrown off the old blanket of shame and are now talking about these things.

 

[GNC]

Me too. I am very glad that more girls and women have thrown off the old blanket of shame and are now talking about these things.

Judging by the online world, the worrying thing is that women standing up for themselves makes many men even more reactionary, as if they are the ones being threatened and not the women.

 

[Cochise]

I guess most men don't behave like that - at least they don't think they do might be a possible better way of putting it - and so they feel they are being vilified for something they didn't do.

Me, I just treat women as dangerously irrational until they prove otherwise

That's not quite a joke - it is evident after many years experience that most women do not think like me at all, so I am often surprised by their reactions - I know how most blokes will react to a joke or a prank, for example, no clue how most women will react. So I'm cautious around women, generally speaking. I've even been surprised at biker do's by women taking exception to conversations being had - you're among a load of beered up bikers, Virginia, what subjects did you expect the conversation to cover?

None of this is meant as an apology for men who act like creeps, to be clear.

 

[RyoHazuki]

My mother claimed that she was flashed at as a child, cira 1950s, by a guy on a bicycle who had on a dirty mac that he opened to reveal an erection with a ribbon tied around it. Now that I actually type that I'm wondering how he rode the bike in a mac, that aside, she never told her parents as they would have battered her for it.

Not counting a few times I've been felt up felt up in nightclubs, I've been indecently assaulted twice as an adult, didn't report either, once was by the owner of a sex shop I went into who locked the door and propositioned me to give him a blow job, the other time was by a doctor.

Not counting family members it's once as a child that I recall, age maybe 12, some nonce claimed to be lost and tried to lure me to a remote spot on the edge of the city centre, he didn't manage to do more than a bit of touching though I shudder to think what would have happened if it'd fallen for his trick. Never told my parents as they would (surprise) have battered me for it.

Oh, that's not counting the time I got off the bus one night to see a guy stood at the stop who had been peeing, then he stopped, turned to face me and starts waving his knob at me. Rang the police and they said it wasn't an offense because he had been peeing first.

You can't stop people like that, try as you might, you can't even slow them down.

No disrespect to your ancestors (I think) but I can't even begin to get my head around those expected reactions. Of course, I wouldn't expect them to have taken much action about it years ago, but why would anyone respond by severely punishing their own kid? Would there be an assumption that the kid had made it up for attention, or would it be a mindless knee-jerk reaction to thinking about something really distasteful?

 

[OneWingedBird]

Purely imo but I don't think it's worthwhile to try and figure out why someone would think that was an ok thing to do, the only thing you will get for trying is a headache.

The older I get, the better I think it is to view people as black boxes, we know they will behave in a particular way when we observe them doing it, beyond that, who knows. There is no way to ever check that what we think someone else thinks is accurate, even if they confirm it for us it does not mean it's true.

 

[Schwadevivre]

the worrying thing is that women standing up for themselves makes many men even more reactionary, as if they are the ones being threatened and not the women.

What is even worse is that there are even a few women going along with these trolls. I was really shocked when I found out that Erin Pizzey (the founder of Chiswick Womens Aid - on of the first shelters) thinks that unless rape and abuse leave physical damage it was not rape and abuse.

 

[Schwadevivre]

I wouldn't expect them to have taken much action about it years ago, but why would anyone respond by severely punishing their own kid?

Some of the posts in that I first posted had similar reactions from parents. The idea seems to be that the child somehow encourages or deserves the sexual come-on or is lying about it for attention.

 

[poozler]

I guess most men don't behave like that - at least they don't think they do might be a possible better way of putting it - and so they feel they are being vilified for something they didn't do.

Me, I just treat women as dangerously irrational until they prove otherwise

That's not quite a joke - it is evident after many years experience that most women do not think like me at all, so I am often surprised by their reactions - I know how most blokes will react to a joke or a prank, for example, no clue how most women will react. So I'm cautious around women, generally speaking. I've even been surprised at biker do's by women taking exception to conversations being had - you're among a load of beered up bikers, Virginia, what subjects did you expect the conversation to cover?

None of this is meant as an apology for men who act like creeps, to be clear.

I know exactly what you mean. I, too, have a similar feeling about some women's reactions -- and I am an feminist (please don't call me a feminazi!). There have been so many articles written about women who feel as if they have been assaulted simply by having some guy they don't fancy hit on them. My response? Why don't you just say 'no thanks' and move on?

And sometimes a joke is just a joke (even if it is in poor taste -- but I like jokes in poor taste) and sometimes a prank is just a prank. (I do not understand the allure of pranks, but i am willing to admit that many like them. So be it.) Girls do silly things that I don't understand; guys do silly incomprehensible things too. There was something in the paper recently about a women being soaked with champagne on the winner's podium at the Grand Prix (I think). The picture showed her grimacing as she was sprayed with champagne, and loads of women commentators posted horrified messages about her 'assault'. For christ's sake! She's on the winner's podium at the Grand Prix wearing a Miss Grand Prix-type gown! That's what the car boys do there! They spray champagne on everyone.

Sorry for the mini-rant, but I think it's important to save outrage for truly outrageous things.

 

[Cochise]

poozler, I promise not to call you a feminazi. As far as I know no feminists have yet proposed putting all men into concentration camps.

I don't fully understand feminism (its aims and such) nor am I especially bothered what they are. I try to treat people as people, each complicated in their own way. My best friend is a lady who I'm certain would call herself a feminist, but is nevertheless happy for me to refer to her as 'little sis'. Because she doesn't have a brother and I don't have a sister and she's younger than me. She did on the other hand take exception to me describing the female population as 'birds', so I try not to when she's listening!

But I do know women have to put up with things I don't have to. Including creeps. When the creeps target little girls (or little boys, for that matter) then it ought to be ass-kicking time in any proper society. However, as I have discovered, almost nothing in life is without its downside, and if paranoia about creeps reaches the point where any adult trying to help a child is suspect, or any man trying an inexpert chat-up line is threatening an assault, then overall we probably haven't improved the situation.

 

[Schwadevivre]

Cochise the definition of a feminist is

... try to treat people as people, each complicated in their own way

Some people (me included) like to stand up against the thoughtless expression of gender bias; for example if a news report says "... the attractive 18 year old blonde," I'll often complain because that NEVER refers to a man. Activists will stand up and note that women are harassed by catcalling, inappropriate comment, sleazy actions, discrimination at work and in everyday life.

I've come across people ignoring Monstrosa and asking if such and such goods or services are what is wanted - despite it being Monstrosa who has done the choosing and come to the cash desk to pay. There are times when I went to a business with my ex-manager, Jen, and the key holder has regarded me as the important one and so addressed all comments to me. There was the senior manager at briefing who went all out to get a female meter reader, hugging her without permission and trying to kiss her goodbye. Several of the women in the job found that many male householders would make passes at them and would ask that only a male make further calls. The nearest I came to that in 12 years was the 80 yo with Alzheimers and a bigger beard than me who pinched my bum as I bent over to see the meter.

Essentially there is a great deal of unrecognised prejudice against women and it is up to everyone to correct it.

 

[Cochise]

"It is up to everyone to correct it."

Don't totally agree. (Note - not the same as disagreeing). A man rushing to a woman's defence doesn't exactly change the stereotypes. And I'm no 'activist' - hate the term. It's too easy to wade in without knowing the whole circumstances.

Anyway, my missus didn't need any help in reducing such thoughtless people to quivering jelly - I expect the story of the salesman who tried to suggest that the laptop she wanted was a bit over specified for her (poor dear, after all, you don't want to bother your pretty head with all those terms like RAM and Mhz) is still told round the City. He was cowering in the corner of the shop by the time I get there. She and two of her friends - also senior computer people - used to tour computer exhibitions just waiting for a salesman to come out with lines like 'do you want to take these brochures for your boss'

To some extent, women have to do it for themselves.

But we are getting off topic.

 

[Schwadevivre]

A man rushing to a woman's defence doesn't exactly change the stereotypes.

And a woman "rushing" to a woman's defence is stereotyped as being a "harridan" or a "feminazi" or an "interferring bitch". It is not about being a white knight or a good guy or a ministering angel, it is about finding ways of shutting down the culture that permits the everyday sexism and assaults.

• Someone has to support and, if needed, offer aid to the person assaulted or demeaned.
• Someone has to say to the guy they work with that "I'd tap that" or "look at the tits on her" is not OK.
• Someone has to be there ready to offer comfort or reassure a 12 year-old girl who has been called a "whore".
• Someone has to say it is OK for women to report or talk about assaults both verbal and physical.
• Someone has to make clear that assaults, insults crude comments and unqualified stereotyping is vile.