'Slavery' Alleged: Ultra-Orthodox Cult (Jerusalem; 2020)

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#1
Owing to its elaboration and level of discursive tension this topic / discussion has been spun off from the Ultra-Orthodox Jews thread.


Sounds like a cult

Israeli police have arrested a rabbi who is suspected of holding around 50 women and children in conditions of slavery.

The arrest follows a raid on a complex in Jerusalem, where the alleged victims are believed to have been kept isolated from their families. The women had been punished in various ways and had money stolen from them, police said. The suspect, in his 60s, has denied doing anything wrong.

He was detained in an ultra-Orthodox district in central Jerusalem on suspicion of running a "closed community" where women and children "worked under conditions of slavery", police said in a statement. He and eight female accomplices are suspected of isolating the women in a residential complex, along with children up to the age of five, it added.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51098770
 
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Victory

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#2
Sounds like a cult based around personality worship and coercion. The local community had tried to have it closed.

From The Ha'aretz newspaper article:

"As early as 2011, ultra-Orthodox leaders in Jerusalem published strongly-worded statements against the seminary and demanded that its leader, the suspect, step down. The affair made headlines when parents of women studying there demonstrated outside its gates at its previous location in Jerusalem's Sanhedria neighborhood. The parents called on the authorities to rescue their daughters, who had cut contact with them. The police could not continue the investigation, however, as the women studying there were adults and said they wanted to remain."


https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...enslaved-sexually-abused-women-kids-1.8398269
 

AlchoPwn

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#4
Sounds like a cult based around personality worship and coercion. The local community had tried to have it closed. From The Ha'aretz newspaper article:
"As early as 2011, ultra-Orthodox leaders in Jerusalem published strongly-worded statements against the seminary and demanded that its leader, the suspect, step down. The affair made headlines when parents of women studying there demonstrated outside its gates at its previous location in Jerusalem's Sanhedria neighborhood. The parents called on the authorities to rescue their daughters, who had cut contact with them. The police could not continue the investigation, however, as the women studying there were adults and said they wanted to remain."
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...enslaved-sexually-abused-women-kids-1.8398269
In truth, it is merely a faithful pursuit of the moral values of the ancient Jews. Read the Book of Judges.
 

Victory

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#5
In truth, it is merely a faithful pursuit of the moral values of the ancient Jews. Read the Book of Judges.
Nothing of the sort.
You persist in your bizarre agenda post after post after post.
 
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K-Mill

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#6
I once saw an Orthodox Jew getting a lap dance in the VIP area of a place I used to have business with.
 
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#9
I direct your attention to the Levite and His Concubine (Judges: 19-21). A heartwarming story about family values.
It's true there is some very unpleasant stuff in the Bible. But I don't think that story is an example of how anyone is supposed to behave, its an 'historical' account of the misbehaviour that led to the Jews being punished by God (Exile, etc.).
 

AlchoPwn

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#10
It's true there is some very unpleasant stuff in the Bible. But I don't think that story is an example of how anyone is supposed to behave, its an 'historical' account of the misbehaviour that led to the Jews being punished by God (Exile, etc.).
If one happens to be a religious fanatic, it is easy enough to adopt the most outrageous interpretations and turn them into a justification for one's actions. This is called casuistry, and is a species of mainly religious immorality.
 
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Lb8535

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#11
If one happens to be a religious fanatic, it is easy enough to adopt the most outrageous interpretations and turn them into a justification for one's actions. This is called casuistry, and is a species of mainly religious immorality.
Its also called being a psychopath, and psychopaths can find justification in any religion for what's internal to them. Its not about the religion.
 

Victory

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#12
If one happens to be a religious fanatic, it is easy enough to adopt the most outrageous interpretations and turn them into a justification for one's actions. This is called casuistry, and is a species of mainly religious immorality.
As @Cochise points out, the story is an example of how some people can descend into rape, murder, lies and pimping.
It is about how this is morally wrong.

For reasons known to yourself, you have taken this story as an instruction of how Jews were meant to behave, and suggestied it influenced a modern day coercion cult.
One which the local community of religious Jews tried to draw police attention to nine years ago.
 
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Lb8535

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#13
As @Cochise points out, the story is an example of how some people can descend into rape, murder, lies and pimping.
It is about how this is morally wrong.

For reasons known to yourself, you have taken this story as an instruction of how Jews were meant to behave, and suggestied it influenced a modern day coercion cult.
One which the local community of religious Jews tried to draw police attention to nine years ago.
And Judges 21:25 is very direct.
 

AlchoPwn

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#14
As @Cochise points out, the story is an example of how some people can descend into rape, murder, lies and pimping. It is about how this is morally wrong. For reasons known to yourself, you have taken this story as an instruction of how Jews were meant to behave, and suggestied it influenced a modern day coercion cult. One which the local community of religious Jews tried to draw police attention to nine years ago.
Coercion has always been part of religion, including mainstream Judaism as the Bible amply demonstrates:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17)

“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9)

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10)

A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.” When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16)

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15)

This list is extensive, but doesn't cover quite a few other reasons that ancient Jews were forced to murder in the name of their religion. The fact is amply demonstrated that ancient Judaism was wildly intolerant and extremely violent. This is not to say that Judaism presently hasn't given up such practices. On the other hand, the notion of owning a plethora of concubines/sex slaves is enshrined in Ancient Judaism, for example 1 Kings 11:1-3. Thus I am suggesting that the Rabbi in question hasn't broken with the traditions of ancient Judaism by having 50 concubines. Apparently one might have as many concubines as one can afford to keep, while remaining true to Levitical Law, even while breaking a number of modern secular laws by running a cult and owning sex slaves, which, let's face facts, is pretty heinous.
 

Victory

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#15
@AlchoPwn

You have got it quite wrong.

1.) Death as a punishment was considered so severe, that it was only to be carried out once in a generation (meaning once in every 70 years), and then only if there were two independent witnesses.

All the quotes you have put above are not to be taken literally as physical death, for the reason I have explained.
They relate to spiritual excommunication.

2.) Owning sex slaves was never part of the prescribed mode of conduct of Ancient or Modern Judaism!

A concubine is not a sex save.

A concubine is a woman who lives with a man but has lower status than his wife or wives.
She is still part of the household and is to be treated with respect and kindness.

"Lower status" is perhaps a rare thing in the UK /USA, but then again...how many men have mistresses, especially France/Italy where such a thing is common and tolerated if not condoned.

The vast majority of Old Testament men had one wife.
Some had two, others did have concubines.

Polygamy faded out by 2000 years ago, and was outright banned for the vast majority of Jews 1000 years ago.
There do remain a handful of Yemenite Jews who have two wives.

And one presumes, two mother-in-laws?

He'd be enamoured :)


les.jpg
 

AlchoPwn

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#16
AlchoPwn You have got it quite wrong.
No, I am really not wrong at all.

1.) Death as a punishment was considered so severe, that it was only to be carried out once in a generation (meaning once in every 70 years), and then only if there were two independent witnesses.
"Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. And those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation; and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." So all the congregation brought him outside the camp, and stoned him to death with stones, just as the Lord had commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36)
Clearly you have been misinformed on this point. This scripture clearly shows that people were dragged out and killed pretty much immediately.
All the quotes you have put above are not to be taken literally as physical death, for the reason I have explained. They relate to spiritual excommunication.
A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9)

An example of an explicit form of execution.

Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. And those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation; and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." So all the congregation brought him outside the camp, and stoned him to death with stones, just as the Lord had commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36)

Another example of explicit forms of execution. It is a well known fact that people were regularly stoned to death (aka Lapidation) in ancient Israel. The facts of the matter are laid down in Wikipedia: Stoning, and I draw your attention to the section marked "Torah".
2.) Owning sex slaves was never part of the prescribed mode of conduct of Ancient Judaism!
Not explicitly, but one was entirely allowed to own and abuse a non-Jewish woman as a slave, who was commonly referred to as a concubine, despite having no rights whatsoever.
a concubine is not a sex slave
The article should read "A concubine is not always a sex slave". Again I draw your attention to the daugthers of Shiloh from the Levite and his concubine, their families set upon and murdered and then dragged off into bondage by the perverted Benjaminites, all with the blessings of the other tribes. That's some "frontier justice" right there. The entire role of being in concubinage was always one of inferiority and subordination. A concubine is not a wife, she doesn't enjoy the same (few) rights that a wife legally had, she is a sub-wife, an under-wife, and given that wives are legally considered all but property, a concubine couldn't expect much. She was a rich man's toy.
It is a woman who lives with a man but has lower status than his wife or wives.
She is still part of the household and is to be treated with respect and kindness.
Yes, because we all know that the model of how things work is alway how they play out in real life, and when a non-Jewish woman was purchased as a slave, she could expect to enjoy all the rights of a married Jewish woman... Thought nobody ever... Except perhaps yourself, but I think you are talking thru your hat. Surely you can't be so very naive?
"Lower status" is perhaps a rare thing in the UK /USA, but then again...how many men have mistresses, especially France/Italy where such a thing is common and tolerated if not condoned.
Irrelevant. We are not making a study of comparative morality of concubinage in various cultures. We are establishing the facts of concubinage in ancient Judaism.
The vast majority of Old Testament men had one wife.
Some had two, others did have concubines.
Yes, polygamy is a related issue, but not truly pertinent.
Polygamy faded out by 2000 years ago, and was outright banned for the vast majority of Jews 1000 years ago. There do remain a handful of Yemenite Jews who have two wives.
I never claimed that these practices were still carried out in the present day, but the information about Yemenite Jews doesn't surprise me, as my time in Yemen did little to endear the entire country to me.
 
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Victory

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#17
@AlchoPwn

A concubine was significantly distinct from a slave, or a sex slave!

Slavery, was strongly cautioned against. Though had strict rules of conduct as we have previously discussed, including a severe caution against slavery for life, and was nothing like the depravity of some of the American slavery of the colonial and pre Civil War era.

Slavery of a non-Jewish woman, probably captured in battle?
It's clear such a practice was frowned upon, with Jewish men told to shave the head of such woman to make her look unattractive, and wait a month before touching them.

Your frequent quotes of violence are simply not what happened, they are cautions and spiritual excommunications.
Though the man killed for collecting wood on Shabbat was one of the very rare examples of those killed as punishment, he had ignored the warnings of witness to stop this.

And so what if those Yemenite Jews have two wives?
They are not forced to marry the man.
 
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AlchoPwn

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#18
A concubine was significantly distinct from a slave, or a sex slave!
You are repeating yourself without providing fresh evidence. Just repeating yourself adds nothing to your claims, and if act goes a long way towards discrediting your claims, as it makes you appear dogmatic and unreasonable.
Slavery, was strongly cautioned against. Though had strict rules of conduct as we have previously discussed, including a severe caution against slavery for life, and was nothing like the depravity of some of the American slavery of the colonial and pre Civil War era.
And yet slavery was also widely practices and the Levitical laws used were pretty appalling.
"Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property." - Exodus 20:20-21.
In all likelihood this primarily applied only to Jewish debt slaves, not to foreign slaves, who had no legal means of recourse as they had no access to the religious legal system and thus no means of legal redress. Now it should also be pointed out that under the US system of slavery, for all its vices, the population of slaves actually grew. This is in stark contrast to slavery in the Middle East, where historically, foreign slaves could expect to die in captivity, and where their populations dwindled due to shocking abuses, generally involving mutilation and punishment.
Slavery of a non-Jewish woman, probably captured in battle?
It's clear such a practice was frowned upon, with Jewish men told to shave the head of such woman to make her look unattractive, and wait a month before touching them.
"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. And you, camp outside the camp seven days; whoever has killed any person and whoever has touched any slain, purify yourselves, you and your captives, on the third day and on the seventh day." - Numbers 31: 17-19.

- Ergo, proof positive that your claim isn't true. This details compulsory acquisition of female captives as slaves i.e. concubines after the sack of Midian. Furthermore, this methodology is repeated numerous times in scripture during multiple military victories, as the normal procedure in wartime when dealing with populations captured by the Jews. During the time of Mohammed the Muslims followed the same methodology when they destroyed tribes following Judaism in the Arabian Desert (as an historical footnote).
Your frequent quotes of violence are simply not what happened, they are cautions and spiritual excommunications. Though the man killed for collecting wood on Shabbat was one of the very rare examples of those killed as punishment, he had ignored the warnings of witness to stop this.
I note that you are saying things but not providing actual evidence other than your word. This isn't good enough as a measure of proof for what you are saying. In fact I think you are being very dishonest and you cannot find any documents that support what you are saying. Just because you underline something, doesn't mean it links to pertinent information, or that it carries any particular weight. Your argument is unsupported, and you know it.
And so what if those Yemenite Jews have two wives? They are not forced to marry the man.
I know I don't care what people get up to in Yemen. It's a horror show of a country and I hope I never have to return there. This is not pertinent to the argument in any case.
 
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Lb8535

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#19
@AlchoPwn

A concubine was significantly distinct from a slave, or a sex slave!

Slavery, was strongly cautioned against. Though had strict rules of conduct as we have previously discussed, including a severe caution against slavery for life, and was nothing like the depravity of some of the American slavery of the colonial and pre Civil War era.

Slavery of a non-Jewish woman, probably captured in battle?
It's clear such a practice was frowned upon, with Jewish men told to shave the head of such woman to make her look unattractive, and wait a month before touching them.

Your frequent quotes of violence are simply not what happened, they are cautions and spiritual excommunications.
Though the man killed for collecting wood on Shabbat was one of the very rare examples of those killed as punishment, he had ignored the warnings of witness to stop this.

And so what if those Yemenite Jews have two wives?
They are not forced to marry the man.
Um, yes she very likely was. But then so was the first wife. Local cultural norms dont provide for female agreement to marriage.
 

hunck

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#20
An example of an explicit form of execution.

Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. And those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation; and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, "The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." So all the congregation brought him outside the camp, and stoned him to death with stones, just as the Lord had commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36)
Collecting wood?.. The bastard. He got off lightly for this heinous crime.
 

Lb8535

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#23
Um, yes she very likely was. But then so was the first wife. Local cultural norms dont provide for female agreement to marriage.
And Victory, the stories are not metaphors, but also are not news reporting. They are more likely to be propaganda or delusion. The composition of the Old Testament was very complicated. I recommend Unauthorized Version by Fox, an even handed and scholarly study, as a good place to start.
 

Victory

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#24
@AlchoPwn

With you, it is not a logical or clear discussion.
You have an agenda, and then take quotes to fit it.

I explained at length when we last clashed on another thread, that simply reading the bible in English, will provide only a superficial reading.
The way it is read and studeied by Jews involves context.
That comes only from knowing the four basic levels of Torah, and from understanding the Talmud (Oral Torah) and the commentaries.

Not to mention that it is written in Hebrew, and studying in it in Hebrew means knowledge of word roots, and letter placements, and Gematria, which convey the proper meaning.

You are single handedly trying to impose your basic "cut and paste" reading of things as some kind of truth, in the face of centuries of study by Jewish scholars. It's bizarre.

Hence your insistence on execution being common is not correct, for a study of Talmud shows this was a "Once in a generation" occurence.

Any dictionary will clearly define concubine.
The examples of Zilpah and Bilha show integral members of a household, whose sons became some of the 12 Tribes.

Basically there was a recently busted coercion cult in Israel. The local religious Jews tried to stop it.
The man who ran it was not using any known form of Judaism to justify what he did, he basically "went rogue" and it was a crime against religious and civil law.

There seems little point in continuing this subject as you are far removed from the established body of knowledge and understanding.
A fresh approach to a subject is all well and good, but not if it is based on such a "face-value" approach.
 
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AlchoPwn

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#25
@AlchoPwnWith you, it is not a logical or clear discussion.
You have an agenda, and then take quotes to fit it.
No, that is paranoia on your part. I could easily say that you are the one with the agenda, seeing how you want to whitewash the dubious and ugly history of your people in their formative years. That is a form of dishonesty that does you no credit.
@AlchoPwn I explained at length when we last clashed on another thread, that simply reading the bible in English, will provide only a superficial reading.
And yet you offer nothing by way of supporting text to support anything you say. Where are your references? No references=zero credibility for your claims. Of course your references also need to satisfy cross-examination. As to so-called superficial readings, as opposed to what? Reading informed by cult membership? That won't be entirely unbiased now, will it?
The way it is read and studeied by Jews involves context. That comes only from knowing the four basic levels of Torah, and from understanding the Talmud (Oral Torah) and the commentaries.
I am well aware of Yeshiva studies and their limitations, but this is entirely diversionary on your part. Back to the actual point...

If you recall, you took issue with me claiming that the Rabbi in question who has been keeping 50 women in his cult as concubines was not in fact following normal practice for ancient Judaism. I have clearly demonstrated that his behavior is indeed consistent with the practices of ancient Judaism, and I have done so in detail. Your claims however have been repeatedly proven dishonest and false, yet you persist in making them, so I persist in proving you wrong and dishonest.
Not to mention that it is written in Hebrew, and studying in it in Hebrew means knowledge of word roots, and letter placements, and Gematria, which convey the proper meaning.
Yes, well, given that I used to translate Hebrew, Aramaic, Ancient Greek and Arabic for a living, I do know about such things. I am also utterly unimpressed by Gematria, as for every time it yields something interesting, one must ignore a dozen times when it reveals noise rather than signal. Claiming therefore that it is anything other than a superstition is pure confirmation bias. Are you aware that Greek also has access to a form of Gematria? Of course it is open to the same criticism.
You are single handedly trying to impose your basic "cut and paste" reading of things as some kind of truth, in the face of centuries of study by Jewish scholars. It's bizarre.
I'm hardly going too waste serious scholarship on you. I am dashing this off on the fly, offer only enough evidence to prove that you're wrong. You on the other hand offer no actual quotes to support anything you say. Highly suspicious.
Hence your insistence on execution being common is not correct, for a study of Talmud shows this was a "Once in a generation" occurence.
You are clearly wrong about this. Did you even read the link I left that clearly shows that executions in the ancient Jewish states happened on a regular basis, and multiple crimes carried capital punishment as a penalty? No, you didn't , because you're intellectually dishonest, and would sooner repeat false information to support your agenda of misrepresenting history.
Any dictionary will clearly define concubine.
Great! Then please include 8 easily accessible links to the information so that people can verify your claims. Or can't you do that?
The examples of Zilpah and Bilha show integral members of a household, whose sons became some of the 12 Tribes.
Again, you expect everyone to suddenly have access to this information. Where are the links? If you provide no links, then everything you say is here-say.
Basically there was a recently busted coercion cult in Israel. The local religious Jews tried to stop it. The man who ran it was not using any known form of Judaism to justify what he did, he basically "went rogue" and it was a crime against religious and civil law.
He broke modern laws, not ancient laws. That was the point I was making all along. I still stand by it. There is no law to suggest that a Rabbi cannot have concubines in great profusion should he be able to do so. It only becomes a problem when there are modern laws about coercion that there is an issue. In ancient times? Not so much.
There seems little point in continuing this subject as you are far removed from the established body of knowledge and understanding. A fresh approach to a subject is all well and good, but not if it is based on such a "face-value" approach.
I agree that there is little point in continuing. Clearly you can't offer a single piece of documentary evidence to support your spurious claims, and that makes this a pretty one-sided exchange. Your lack of knowledge about your people's history is shameful, as is your inability to offer any supporting documentation to support your spurious claims. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.
 
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