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So Many Behind Bars In 'The Land Of The Free'

Really chaps all this talk of public execution,very messy and wasteful,shouldn't we cut them up for body parts?
 
mike_legs said:
I hate to say it, DD, but that is an absolutely wonderful idea. Now the only question is, what island? I recommend someplace either arctic or tropic. Temperate would just be too easy.
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How about an old oil rig in the arse-end of nowhere?
 
Maybe, but then you've either got to feed them (costs $$) or if you don't they starve to death, which upsets the human rights brigade. I like the idea of putting them somewhere where they have full responsibility for their actions after spending so long taking advantage of others. Let them walk for miles to get their own water, let them find/catch their own food, let them build their own shelters - total self-sufficiency. And there's no escape because there's no technology, and many miles of shark infested water surrounding them. The rest of their lives will be spent rueing what they've lost, living from day to day, possibly(hopefully) in fear of their lives, like others did, with time to consider what they did. Killing someone doesn't give them that luxury.
 
"Ah you'll never never now if you never never go" Sounds just like the advertisement for Northern Territory Tourist promotion.Or maybe a new survivor TV show,some people actually enjoy that sort of carry on.How about proper reflection on the crime,Im sick of people blaming their past!But you are right,if a crime is committed and retribution is handed out,it should be repugnant to the perpetrator.
 
Dark Detective said:
Maybe, but then you've either got to feed them (costs $$) or if you don't they starve to death, which upsets the human rights brigade. I like the idea of putting them somewhere where they have full responsibility for their actions after spending so long taking advantage of others. Let them walk for miles to get their own water, let them find/catch their own food, let them build their own shelters - total self-sufficiency. And there's no escape because there's no technology, and many miles of shark infested water surrounding them. The rest of their lives will be spent rueing what they've lost, living from day to day, possibly(hopefully) in fear of their lives, like others did, with time to consider what they did. Killing someone doesn't give them that luxury.
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I remember reading a piece in one of the Sunday papers about how the Spanish (pr maybe it was the Portuguese) have a 'prison island' for their hardened crims. Only it's actually quite nice - they can bring their families along, there are schools and shops. The crims fish and grow most of their own food on allotments and are offered training and useful work- the idea is to take them out of the urban criminal society in which they operated and get them to see that there's a better way of life, without drugs, violence etc. It apparently works - some of them are choosing to stay when their sentences are up!
 
Inverurie Jones said:
The point is, that films like 'Scream' et al cheapen death. It should be treated far more seriously.
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I'm surprised you don't see the historical precidence for this, what with you studying Shakespeare and all. It's just the skull at the banquet. Stupid films though I agree.
 
Maybe if we gave 'em a "time out"

My 4-year old and I were stopped at a red light and a police officer was arresting a young man. My daughter wanted to know what was going on so I told her. I defined arrest as being caught doing something very naughty. I explained that as adults sometimes make mistakes about who was being naughty, that man might well be innocent, but the judge/legal system would find out. She wanted to know if he had really been naughty, would he get a time out (as she sometimes does at home). I told her yes, and adults call the big time out for adult naughtiness "jail". Her next question was "So do they have to think about what they did and if they were naughty?"

And that was the real question. Perhaps that's one reason for the high incidence of repeat offenders in the U.S. (Repeat offenses are one of the reasons for that 1-in-134-in-jail statistic). In U.S. prisons, it's considered cruel and unusual punishment to force inmates to take part in behaviour improvement programs of any sort. Anything that might instill a sense of personal responsibility for one's own actions is considered "damaging to the inmates' psyche" and is purely voluntary. Maybe 5% of the prison populace ever face up to their own choices and actions having lead them to prison.

Maybe if they just took a time out, and had no options but to sit and think about what they did and if it was wrong.....

But doing away with the books, movies, television, weight rooms, etc. would again be "cruel and unusual punishment".
 
Re: Maybe if we gave 'em a "time out"

Fallen Angel said:
(Repeat offenses are one of the reasons for that 1-in-134-in-jail statistic).
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Could anyone tell me where they got that figure? It seems to me, that if we really had that many people in prison, we'd have to have a prison system SO LARGE that we would need a series of buildings, so numerous, one could probably view them from space!

Are we sure that the factoid didn't state that one in one-hundred and thirty four had BEEN to jail? That would be a bit more believable, but I would doubt that. One of my best friends is an Assistant Commonwealth Attorney in the state of Virginia, and when I repeated this little tidbit to him, he laughed his ass off and asked me what kind of crazy people had I been associating with!:confused:
 
Dark Detective said:
Actually, no I haven't so you'll have to enlighten me!
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Sending all of the criminals off to live by themselves in harsh conditions just made super-mean baddies. Then they were brainwashed and turned into the Emperor's army. No one could defeat them until the protagonist organized another group of outcast people on another harsh planet--they were even meaner. (This is only one thread in the novel, but it is fairly well-developed--even moreso later on in the series.)
 
afebk said:
Sending all of the criminals off to live by themselves in harsh conditions just made super-mean baddies. Then they were brainwashed and turned into the Emperor's army. No one could defeat them until the protagonist organized another group of outcast people on another harsh planet--they were even meaner. (This is only one thread in the novel, but it is fairly well-developed--even moreso later on in the series.)
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Saurdakar [sic] anyone? Send them all to the prison planet in the "Dune" series!
 
wulfloki said:
Saurdakar [sic] anyone? Send them all to the prison planet in the "Dune" series!
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Dude, that's what I was talking about.

Sorry for saying 'dude.'

Sardaukar.
 
RE: putting criminals on their own island

I hope we'll get full weekly reports on their progress and get to vote our favourites off like on survivor!

Actually, I hate shows like survivor and big brother.. it was just a joke. lol
 
As any good anarchist will tell you, crime is just symptomatic of the inherent unfairnesses of the modern capitalist system.
Once all property is free and the economic system works on the principle of each according to his need, then their will be no point commiting crime.
Though of course this would only work to a certain extent, as some people are just born/conditioned by their environment (delete as you see fit) to be real nasty f**kers, and even in a perfect world you would get rapists and serial killers.
I think the Isle of Wight is a good idea, but only if we surrond it with huge walls, put Lee Van Clef in charge, and Ernie Borganstien gets to drive a cab.
 
Another point is its hard to ship people to an island,they tend to come back in a couple of hundred years winning awards and exporting crap T.V. shows back to torture their exilers.Cheers enjoy we don't.
 
I think it's easiest to explain America jibing freedom with incarceration in this way: if we are all playing a game like good children, everything's fine. If I start cheating and ruining everyone else's fun, I'm kicked out of the game. It's not at all about rehabilitation regardless of what anyone says, it's about punishment and getting crims out of decent folks' hair. That sounds callous (and probably is callous); yet, I think it's true.

If a kid gets caught with dope in his car, he doesn't go to prison for four years, unless he represents himself in court. Any lawyer worth his salt could get the kid off with probation. Trust me: most of my friends under 21 have all been through this. :)

I also wonder if jail and prison are being confused in the stats. I've been to jail twice, but never to prison; that's a huge difference, believe me. Also, keep in mind the folks in prison aren't librarians and candystripers: they're in there for a reason, and chances are, they don't care a tenth as much about your welfare as you do theirs. They're not in there for teaching literacy classes or volunteering at the old folk's home. They're there because they're not suitable members of the community, and inhibit our enjoyment of freedom. You don't want to take your dog for a walk if the neighbors are engaging in drive-bys.
 
TorgosPizza said:
I also wonder if jail and prison are being confused in the stats. I've been to jail twice, but never to prison; that's a huge difference, believe me.
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So what is the difference? They're the same thing over here (except that jail is spelt goal).
 
In the States, jail is basically a local thing, ie; get busted for DUI, and end up in jail for a month or so, forget to pay some fines, county jail with you, usually in the local police station or county jail.
Prison, on the other hand, is usually state or federal run, not county, and is usually much bigger and more crowded and filled to the brim with the most offensive offenders. This is where you go for murder, rape, arson, etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong...
 
Jail ,prison they are all incarceration,the deprevation of liberty for whatever reason society demands,and the figures dont lie.
 
To be fair if we took the statistics for jail "timers'away the prison statistics are over 500,000 incarcerated which if we took the USA's population at 300,000,000 roughly,still makes the figure 1 in 600 in prison.know wonder they call the prison system a growth industry.Surely this must make alarm bells start ringing,Im personally shocked by the figure.
 
Hey, maybe if we all drank as much alcohol as Europeans do, we'd be more mellow, and we wouldn't have such a problem with violent crime.
 
as to sending criminals to an Island or whatever (re:Australia) does anyone remember that the original transportees were mainly undesirables (ie "poor") and had committed crimes such as stealing bread,etc. They weren't in general murderers and rapists. The same with the transportees sent to America! Our judicial system is far from perfect but the alternatives aren't worth thinking about. I would rather see everyone who commits violent crimes such as child rape/murder and crimes against women tortured in public than to have my tax dollars support them in prison but there it is. Our jails are too full and that's the fault of our archaic drug laws but Wildman, if you lived here, you probably wouldn't be spouting off about "freedom" in regards to our criminal population. I'm not trying to flame you, but you need to walk a mile in American shoes before you make blanket statements about our way of life here.
 
Of course we need to refine some of the more unsavoury elements of Victorian justice, but I've yet to hear a good argument for NOT implementing this idea. I wish we could kick this idea around a bit, otherwise why don't we get this implemented? :confused:
 
goodpoint Webfoot,as to walking American Streets no thanks,Id be a babe in the woods,but what would you do to address the blow out in crime statistics,ban handguns,and semiautomatic weapons??It seems all our societies laws are based upon crisis management,steps need to be taken to take toys out of the hands of boys and education even if that can be called cruel and unusual punishment to help prevent people making the wrong decisions that lead to the spiral of crime.
 
see Wildman, our crime statistics are based on ALL crimes not only the violent ones. I think non-Americans visualize us like the old West where we're all totin' guns lookin for a fight but it's not like that at all. There has been a shift in the rise of violent crimes; ours in Seattle has dropped steadily in the last five years. BUT we have had a rise in "non-violent" such as car theft, etc. Now, in the last month, we have had several deaths resulting from car chases (police vs. car thefts) where the cars themselves were used as weapons. Should we then ban cars??? I've seen this argument before but I'll take it up anyway. Anything and everything can be a weapon if used improperly. A gun is an implement only; banning guns (if that were even possible!) wouldn't change the nature of a person who wants to hurt another. And, like many Americans, I do want the right to defend myself (even if I don't personally own a handgun) if necessary. So you see, there isn't a nice band-aid answer to preventing crime and emptying our prisons so we can all be "free" according to our "label" but I still (gulp) love living here and will take it with all it's imperfections.
 
I have to disagree with you on one point, webfoot...
I do think that the relatively free flow of handguns here adds significantly to the problem of violent crime. I do not think, however, that banning guns would do any good at this point--just look at how Prohibition worked out. As far as I am concerned, we should put all of our efforts into the public education system--it is the only institution we have that has the potential to alleviate any of our social problems.
 
Banning guns wouldn't do any good , look at the strict laws here in the UK , but you only have to know which pub to go into to get one , they aren't hard to get hold of ,and gun related crime seems to be on the increase in inner cities.
Marion
 
Originally posted by Annasdottir

So what is the difference? They're the same thing over here (except that jail is spelt goal).
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Annasdottir, Wulfloki had it right. I went to jail last time for "failure to appear [in court]," so it's typically not serious offenders, unless it's just after an apprehension or while transferring them. The "Pens" (or "Walls" or "Big House") are where the baddest of the bad wind up or maybe repeat offenders that just can't get it together. It's rare to go to prison proper for writing bad checks or not paying the parking meter. And although (as someone else suggested) it's still a deprivation of freedom, I'd take jail over prison any day. I wasn't in jail long (mere hours) and no one looked at me cross-eyed; yet, in prison, I'd have to attack a prospective "suitor" in the first fifteen minutes, just to prove a point. Jail's no big deal if you get in and get out, but I would never go to prison unless they put me down with elephant tranqilizers and carried me in. Very different place.
 
The seperation of jail and prison is a concept we are not familar with.Here goal means prison and every one is lumped in remand,until classified,not a pretty experience by all accounts.The real point is our statistics reflect all crimes bunched together too,but yours seem so much greater in number is it greater violence in your community,or heavier sentences that sway your statistic numbers.
 
Both, I would think. We're the more violent of 1st world countries, and with the idiotic mandatory sentencing laws we have, we put a lot of people in the pokey.
 
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