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So Many Behind Bars In 'The Land Of The Free'

tang-malow said:
One city has more murders than the whole of the UK?...I find it hard to believe that this is the case that a single city could have more murders that the whole of the UK including England Wales Scotland and the War torn northern Ireland. I could be wrong however.
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The following is taken from the introduction to Michael A. Bellesiles book Arming America (Oh, and before I'm accused of rabid anti- Americanism this is an American book by an American author)

An astoundingly high level of personal violence separates the United States from every other industrial nation. To find comparable levels of interpersonal violence, one must examine nations in the midst of civil wars or social chaos. In the United States of America in the 1990's, two million violent crimes and twenty-four thousand murders occured on average every year...In a typical week, more Americans are killed with guns than in all of Western Europe in a year.

As for "war-torn" Northern Ireland, between 1969 and 1998 there were around 4000 conflict related fatalities in total in both parts of Ireland, Britain and mainland Europe. 3251 of these were in Ulster itself. So the entire conflict in Northern Ireland since 1969 has accounted for approximately 16.7% of the US's average annual domestic bodycount...I think.

God bless the NRA.
 
Spookdaddy said:
So the entire conflict in Northern Ireland since 1969 has accounted for approximately 16.7% of the US's average annual domestic bodycount...I think.

God bless the NRA.
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I think these stats are interesting, but misleading for a number of reasons. First off, gun-related deaths don't mean they're all murders. Not by a long shot. Accidental discharges occur every now and then while handling weapons. Furthermore, I'd be willing to bet most crime-related deaths are criminals, themselves. When you hear of someone getting shot to death, 90% of the time it's a "Jerry Springer guest" kind of person that has chosen their own collision course with destruction, rather than the regular stand-up citizen. Criminals often prey on other shady "societal underbelly" types, rather than PTA members and city councilmen, mainly because those latter crimes bring more heat down on the perpetrator. The only reason I point this out is that the stats make it sound as if mothers taking their kids to football practice are being mowed down in drive-bys everyday, and that's not remotely close to reality.
 
TorgosPizza said:
I think these stats are interesting, but misleading for a number of reasons. First off, gun-related deaths don't mean they're all murders. Not by a long shot. Accidental discharges occur every now and then while handling weapons...The only reason I point this out is that the stats make it sound as if mothers taking their kids to football practice are being mowed down in drive-bys everyday, and that's not remotely close to reality.
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Point taken. Actually I’m not a big fan of statistics used in this way myself as they are far too often manipulated to back up a particular authors point of view.

However, to clarify, the statistic I quoted is 24,000 murders per year not 24, 000 gun-related deaths (you made that bit up. My comment re the NRA probably didn't help). Bellesiles states that of the annual 24, 000 murders, guns are used in only 70% of them. He does goes on to say a bit vaguely that “thousands more are killed by firearms every year in accidents and suicides."

I was more keen to put the idea of a war-torn Northern-Ireland (as tang-mallow described it) in some sort of perspective than to make any comment on the US murder-rate or the rights and wrongs of it's gun-culture.

Just glancing at the book again I saw Charlton Heston's comment warning the US to avoid "Englands Orwellian nightmare" of gun control. Can't say that I feel there's a gaping hole in my life. Any other Brits out there feel oppressed at not being able to buy automatic weapons at Woolies?
 
Spook said:
Just glancing at the book again I saw Charlton Heston's comment warning the US to avoid "Englands Orwellian nightmare" of gun control. Can't say that I feel there's a gaping hole in my life. Any other Brits out there feel oppressed at not being able to by automatic weapons at Woolies?
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In a word, No!

Torgos said "Furthermore, I'd be willing to bet most crime-related deaths are criminals, themselves. When you hear of someone getting shot to death, 90% of the time it's a "Jerry Springer guest" kind of person that has chosen their own collision course with destruction, rather than the regular stand-up citizen. Criminals often prey on other shady "societal underbelly" types, rather than PTA members and city councilmen, mainly because those latter crimes bring more heat down on the perpetrator."

But as I understand it (and I'm in regular correspondence with an American, on a variety of topics) a lot of non criminal pro-gun types often claim that they want guns for protection from the criminal types. So are they just paranoid? (The solution to the gun problem is - more guns!)

And if so many shootings are accidents, that in itself seems a good reason to limit the number of guns.

I know there are lies, damn lies, and statistics, but the figures given by Spook (even allowing for large error margins) make me glad I live in Europe. To me, the idea that guns can control gun problems is like trying to cure a headache by banging your head with a brick.
 
Spook said:
Can't say that I feel there's a gaping hole in my life. Any other Brits out there feel oppressed at not being able to buy automatic weapons at Woolies?
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Just a little interesting thing - a couple of weeks ago a teenager in the town I live in was approached in a carpark in town by a man with a car boot full of guns and was asked if he wanted to buy one! This is a small 'market town ' ! Don't think he was caught , he is probably still going round trying to sell them . ( the seller not the teenager ) . I've said it before - it is not difficult to find guns for sale in the UK .
 
Spook, sorry about messing up the stats, mate: I have a problem mouthing off without sorting out the details. I still believe what I said about the type of people killed (being largely criminals, themselves); still, I'd prefer a world in which these things weren't an issue, to begin with. Any situation that cheapens life is horrible, but many people seem almost destined to such endings (f.ex., drug addicts are more likely to be killed than, say, realtors). It bothers me to sound so heartless, but it still seems to be the way it often works out.

Rynner also asked if the people buying all the guns were paranoid, and that's a good, tough question. I think so, to a degree. Not everyone that purchases weapons do so for defense purposes. Most gun owners I know --such as my brother or co-workers-- have them for hunting or sport. My boss is typical: he has a single rifle, and isn't sure whether or not he has shells for it. Still, some people have a distrust of government that is as old as our nation. It would be impossible for a coup to ever occur here, because the populace would kill the usurpers. On a related note, back during the LA riots, I knew it would be contained to urban areas (People detroying their own neighbors' homes? Makes no sense, to me.), because people elsewhere wouldn't tolerate such behavior and would quell it themselves, if necessary.

They might be crazy as loons and paranoid of a gestapo that might never come, Rynner, I'm not sure. Still, I know an NRA member will never shoot good blokes like me and you, and might possibly deter someone else from acting out of line. I'd gladly live with that risk.
 
TorgosPizza said:
Trust me on this: DC might be interesting on a tour, but no one in their right mind would live there. NYC is more hospitable.
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Who was it who said 'Washington DC - Northern Hospitality combined with Southern Efficency'
 
Spook said:
Just glancing at the book again I saw Charlton Heston's comment warning the US to avoid "Englands Orwellian nightmare" of gun control.
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Did anyone see that remake of Planet of the Apes? Charlton Heston gave what appeared to be an anti-firearms soliloquy. I wondered at the time if he knew what he was doing, or if he'd been tricked into it. You know the scene I'm talking about?
 
A friend of mine was on Holiday in Massachusetts last year and was told Britain was not a free country - because we coudn't own guns.

Years ago a Texan friend moved to Scotland and literally the first thing he did was to go out and buy the biggest firearm he could legally possess - which to his horror was only a shotgun. How was he going to defend his wife and home? He was genuinely traumatised (even worse was the first time somebody called him a 'Yank' - but that's another story).

Its a culture thing. At work we had a colleague over from the New jersey office, and over lunch started discussing the latest school shooting in the US. 'Oh yes' says our guest in a very thick Brooklyn accent. 'Children with guns is terrible. We waited until our son was 12 before we bought him his first gun'. We just stared at her. They are all quite potty.
 
I was thirteen before I first handled a firearm...never did me any harm... Mind you, I've never actually had a working firearm in the house. I don't need to, I've got a sword.
 
beakboo said:
Do they not like being called yanks then? Oh dear. :(
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In the US, Southeners HATE to be called Yanks. To them, to be called a yank is the most dire form of insult. Stems from our Civil War. [these punks are manufacturing grudges from events a hundred years in the past!]
The Good Ole' Boys down South liked to think of themselves as "Rebels" or "Rebs" and anything North of the Carolinas was Yankee territory. To call a Texan a Yank, or a Yankee is especially insulting.

It hold similarities to the resentment caused by calling someone from Edinburgh English.
:D
 
Crikey, I'll not do that again then. Minor Drag must be a very understanding man to put up with the abuse he gets here.
 
Banning guns wouldn't do any good , look at the strict laws here in the UK , but you only have to know which pub to go into to get one , they aren't hard to get hold of ,and gun related crime seems to be on the increase in inner cities.
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***WARNING***
Urban myth alert
*************
To my knowledge there is no evidence to support this commonly repeated myth.
 
Arthur ASCII said:
***WARNING***
Urban myth alert
*************
To my knowledge there is no evidence to support this commonly repeated myth.
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Ive never been able to pick a gun up in a pub not for the lack of trying. Its hard enough getting a decent pint of guinness.

I have a shotgun that my gf's father gave me but i dont have a licence for it yet, ill get one soon. I also have a sword like IJ, i have a ninjitsu sword with the blade painted black but its starting to chip a bit now. I think ill stick with my shotty if anyone messes with me tho.
 
OK here's the story. Once we had persuaded Mr Texan to put down the guy's head, we explained that over here 'Yank' just means an American of any persuasion, and forgive our ignorance but we weren't trying to suggest that Atlanta should be burned or Lincoln canonized etc. He understood but too late, he had also discovered it was fun to start fights in Glasgow bars. I spent quite a lot of the next two years hiding under tables.

Years later, Mr Texas suddenly started telling me, out of the blue, that it didn't matter what a man caled you, it was only words. Something had obviously got to him. I waited until he finished and then said 'But what if someone called you a Yankee?'

Long pause. Then he just smiled and said 'Well, that would be different...'

He took to the bottle and went bananas in the end. Bit of a tragedy.

BTW, most of the people in Edinburgh are English, or in my case just sound like it (oh how I suffer). But could be worse - could be from Fife.

Sorry if this is way off topic.
 
jritchie said:
BTW, most of the people in Edinburgh are English, or in my case just sound like it (oh how I suffer). But could be worse - could be from Fife.
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Umm no most people in Edinburgh arent English and i dont know how you could get the 2 accents mixed up. Also whats wrong with being from Fife?
 
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