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Speed of Gravity

As far as computers are concerned, I would maintain the first real computers in the modern sense were the ones developed in Manchester starting with the Manchester Baby.

http://www.computer50.org/

In that they contained a means of on-line storage rather than just the ability to calculate.

I've been privileged to meet a couple of the folk who worked on these. Brilliant British left-field engineering.

Hard disks are not essential for a computer. Plenty of other storage devices have been used - its the concept of permanent or semi-permanent storage that makes a computer different from a calculator.
 
Jerry_B said:
Any chance you could validate any of these statements please...?

Ghostisfort said:
This is just another sad and somewhat despicable attempt at support for a myth to elevate academia.

Ghostisfort said:
The apparent development is technology withheld by big business in order to make money.

Ghostisfort said:
Also, nothing new was ever discovered by a group of people sitting around a table.


The first one is about using Turing's misfortune to bolster a myth by attributing computer work to him that he obviously had no part. I'm not saying that the myths of science are all the work of academics, but I don't often see them putting the record straight; something one would expect them to do.

The second is about drip-feeding technology. Things that have been around for decades are withheld in order to sell the previously released technology.
Examples:
Flat screen and HD TV, available in principle since the 1950's are presented as state of the art development.
The presentation the car as new technology when it's all been around for a hundred years. See the link I provided.

The third is just what it appears to be: Attempts at gaining ideas from a committee invariably fail, as ideas come from individual inspiration.
The only time I've seen anything close to this work, is with continuous improvement teams. In this case ideas from individuals are collected and their value is discussed by a team. The team does not influence the ideas.
(This method would be ideal for science.) :D
I wrote this because there are misconceptions about R&D and how it all works.
It's rarely, if ever done by the imaginary "team of experts".
 
Flat screen and HDTV weren't withheld, they'd have just been ludicrously expensive and impracticable with 1950's techonology. If they could've built and sold them in large quantities as the next big thing they would have been. Quite a few technological dead ends have been launched as the next big thing without their limitations being addressed, 8-track stereo, laserdiscss, those advanced film system cameras, that were an attempt to stem the flow of digital cameras....there's probably a lot more.

BTW, IMO the current generation of 3D TVs are a dead end, wait till something better comes along.

New gadgets get released as soon as possible to get in at the start of the market.
 
Ghostisfort said:
The second is about drip-feeding technology. Things that have been around for decades are withheld in order to sell the previously released technology.
Examples:
Flat screen and HD TV, available in principle since the 1950's are presented as state of the art development.
The presentation the car as new technology when it's all been around for a hundred years. See the link I provided.

That's all alot different from saying that it's 'being withheld by big business in order to make money'. You'd have to prove such a statement. Objects being available 'in principle' is alot different from their being mass-produced at an affordable price and supported by an infrastructure that makes use of them. Even so, at the moment this all still seems like your opinion as to how such things work.

I wrote this because there are misconceptions about R&D and how it all works.
It's rarely, if ever done by the imaginary "team of experts".

But often as not such work is done by teams of people from different areas of expertise. As to whether 'nothing new' comes out of such processes, you'd also have to prove that.
 
Are you saying that working examples of flat screen TVs were available in the 50's, or are you saying that the idea was proposed then?
 
Ghostisfort said:
The first one is about using Turing's misfortune to bolster a myth by attributing computer work to him that he obviously had no part. I'm not saying that the myths of science are all the work of academics, but I don't often see them putting the record straight; something one would expect them to do.

That seems like you're back-tracking to a great extent. You said that it was an 'attempt at support for a myth to elevate academia.' You haven't shown how this has been done over the years since Turing's death.
 
Ghostisfort said:
Do I really have to go over this again? :shock:
Why do you find it so difficult to understand that if something is up and running in 1950 and not used until 2000, there is no development, it's just not in the shops?
Then logically, since the Antikythera Mechanism, there's been no development in computers. Since possibly the Baghdad Battery, there's been no development in electronics. Since the aeolipile, there's been no development in engines. Since the invention of painting stuff on cave walls, there's been no development in "hard drives".

You should update your theory. Nothing's been invented for at least 2000 years.
:lol:
 
kamalktk said:
Ghostisfort said:
Do I really have to go over this again? :shock:
Why do you find it so difficult to understand that if something is up and running in 1950 and not used until 2000, there is no development, it's just not in the shops?
Then logically, since the Antikythera Mechanism, there's been no development in computers. Since possibly the Baghdad Battery, there's been no development in electronics. Since the aeolipile, there's been no development in engines......

You should update your theory. Nothing's been invented for at least 2000 years.
:lol:

And since according to Eric von Daniken et al. those pieces of technology were supplied by aliens, nothing has been invented on Earth ever...
 
kamalktk said:
Then logically, since the Antikythera Mechanism, there's been no development in computers. Since possibly the Baghdad Battery, there's been no development in electronics. Since the aeolipile, there's been no development in engines. Since the invention of painting stuff on cave walls, there's been no development in "hard drives".

You should update your theory. Nothing's been invented for at least 2000 years.
:lol:

Yes - that's what tends to happen if you expand and rewind the 'nothing is new' idea ;)
 
Ghostisfort said:
wembley9 said:
Ghostisfort said:
Do some research rather than taking the word of the popular scientific press.

I have, and we're still not seeing any examples suggesting that things used to go from idea to everyday use in less than thirty years. Your examples make it look as though things have always been much the same, as I said.

Do you want to try again, or do you concede that things haven't actually changed since your 'golden age'
Do I really have to go over this again? :shock:
Why do you find it so difficult to understand that if something is up and running in 1950 and not used until 2000, there is no development, it's just not in the shops?

Do I really have to go over this again?
Read what I'm saying: it takes decades to go from idea to product, and it always has, even in your 'golden age'.
Unles you can actualy quote some counterexamples I'll assume you're giving up.
 
kamalktk said:
Then logically, since the Antikythera Mechanism, there's been no development in computers.

Oi! I was just working up to that, and now you've ruined it...or saved us some time.
 
Ghostisfort said:
The presentation the car as new technology when it's all been around for a hundred years.

What on earth do marketing claims have to do with science? Marketing claims frequently defy science as well as sanity and common sense. Especially when beauty products are involved.

Next you'll be compalining that Coke's claim that "Life Begins Here" isn't true.
 
Assumptions

You seem to adopt misapprehension as a deliberate ploy to further your arguments.

Making a comparison between a metaphorical foam and the luminiferous æther is a misapprehension designed to further your thesis that "academia" is an exclusive club that denies access to the "outsider". That is a contention that would probably be opposed by Bose, Wickramasingh, Chandrasekhar, Einstein, Levine and any number of others born outside the privileged classes. Science requires the outsider who, having acquired education, can then bring new insights into stagnant studies.

Compare the insiders, Fleischmann and Pons, their observation was of excess heat produced during electrolysis using paladium electrodes. They then went beyond their areas of expertise and thrust an entirely un-evidenced theory on to this interesting observation and publicised it using their insider status to access the scientific journals.

The fact that this excess of heat is rarely reproducible and that other byproducts that you would expect from a fusion reaction are rarely seen led to their downfall and the marginalisation of what was an intriguing finding. Hence Cold Fusion is a fringe area of study. Similarly unevidenced hypotheses also belong in the fringe. Some ideas also belong in another fringe - the lunatic fringe - and I would suggest the æther is one of those.

To complete this element let me say I have no problem with you posting links to established and accepted history. What Hume said or wrote is not disputed although logicians will dispute at length over the "meaning" of his words.

I assume the existence of the Higgs or the Graviton because, at present, neither has been shown to exist. They are essential to current mainstream theories that seem to describe the behaviour of matter but neither has been shown by experiment to exist incontrovertibly.

In relation to the nature of time and the recent experiments casting doubt on its existence, I am aware of them and am also aware that one or two have been reported in the "popular science press"; but do not let that affect your reverence for them. Your problem is they do not cast doubt upon the existence of such a dimensionality but that they exclude certain assumptions that we make about time - such as the link implicit in the term "space time".

Such results and the implications flowing from them are dependent upon the following:
i) these experiments being reproduced
ii) adequate hypothetical foundations being constructed that allow ...
iii) further different experiments that are capable of proving the hypotheses false, i.e. falsifying them.

And after all that you have the anthropic problem. We experience time, it may be an illusion like continuous space but we have to deal with time and smooth, flat space as if they really exist.
 
wembley9 said:
Ghostisfort said:
wembley9 said:
Ghostisfort said:
Do some research rather than taking the word of the popular scientific press.

I have, and we're still not seeing any examples suggesting that things used to go from idea to everyday use in less than thirty years. Your examples make it look as though things have always been much the same, as I said.

Do you want to try again, or do you concede that things haven't actually changed since your 'golden age'
Do I really have to go over this again? :shock:
Why do you find it so difficult to understand that if something is up and running in 1950 and not used until 2000, there is no development, it's just not in the shops?

Do I really have to go over this again?
Read what I'm saying: it takes decades to go from idea to product, and it always has, even in your 'golden age'.
Unles you can actualy quote some counterexamples I'll assume you're giving up.
Well, Tesla's alternator didn't take long to go on-line:
Nikola Tesla conceived the basic principals of the polyphase induction motor in 1883, and had a half horsepower (400 watt) model by 1888. Tesla sold the manufacturing rights to George Westinghouse for $65,000.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_13/7.html
In 1889, the first AC hydroelectric plant, Williamette Falls Station, began operation in Oregon City, Oregon.[22] In 1890, the Niagara Falls Power Company (NFPC) and its subsidiary Cataract Company formed the International Niagara Commission composed of experts, to analyze proposals to harness Niagara Falls to generate electricity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Currents
I'll be glad to furnish you with some more when I have more time, but it seems that I have an uninvited guest in my computer. For some reason unknown they want to monitor and generally disrupt my surfing activities ?
Can't imagine in my wildest dreams why anyone would be so interested in my uneventful life.
 
Rourke_Wality said:
You seem to adopt misapprehension as a deliberate ploy to further your arguments.
As I recall, Wickramasingh and Chandrasekhar were colleagues of Fred Hoyle who got so sick of the company of academics that he became a SF writer.
However, I don't recall ever being agin' the privileged classes. It's just the academics that bother me, rich or poor.

Fleischmann and Pons have been attacked and hounded at every opportunity. The never ending and pointless hot fusion project crowd had visions of endless jobs for the boys. After fifty or sixty years, no progress. If they worked for a private company the would have been sacked long ago.
This is one brand of social security scroungers that the tabloids have yet to pursue.

The fringe is an interesting phrase, being another way of saying it's something that science prefers not to mention. The "laws of thermodynamics" you know. Used to dispel belief in any fear of a cheap and clean energy source. I wonder who it is that fears such things and why science is so willing to assuage their fears? Could that also be about jobs?

Don't kid yourself about time. There is no known method by which you can prove, scientifically or philosophically, that it exists.
I challenge you to try.
Having declared that space was empty, Einstein went on to give it properties, but nothing/emptiness has no properties, just attributes.

The time is nigh for everyone to see the emperors new clothes for what they are.
 
The presentation the car as new technology when it's all been around for a hundred years. See the link I provided.

Gif - Isn't it commercial rather than scientific interests that have 'sat on' various car technologies? The Doble flash boiler steam car for example?

(Which is a very interesting idea, since it raises steam almost instantly, has no need for a clutch or gears, and can run on alcohol).
 
Cochise said:
The presentation the car as new technology when it's all been around for a hundred years. See the link I provided.

Gif - Isn't it commercial rather than scientific interests that have 'sat on' various car technologies? The Doble flash boiler steam car for example?

I'm confused by this, why would a commercial organisation stifle its own products rather than, as we actually see, try to use any advancement they can to push their product. As long as it's commercially expedient of course.
 
As I recall, Wickramasingh and Chandrasekhar were colleagues of Fred Hoyle
Correct, but they were outsiders. Hoyle, to an extent, was an outsider as well given his background.
Fred Hoyle who got so sick of the company of academics that he became a SF writer.
Hoyle wrote a little science fiction as have other scientists. The fact of his writing had little to do with his distaste for other scientists (a common affliction of brilliant men) but far more to do with his wishing to popularise science and earn a few pennies. He never became a full time science fiction writer. If you are able to read the minds of dead genius' then you should report immediately to the Society for Psychical Research.

NB I might have used the term genii, but that would have been pretentious.
However, I don't recall ever being agin' the privileged classes. It's just the academics that bother me, rich or poor.
But you have railed against the groupthink indulged by scientists, sorry academics. Do you now wish to change your position and say that even those who operate from outside the group are all part and parcel of the same conspiracy? This change to a broadbrush attack on all persons involved in academia strikes me as just being the inverse of the snobbery that insists that only those who have had a university level education are worthy of respect.

Fleischmann and Pons have been attacked and hounded at every opportunity.
And rightly so. They went beyond their area of expertise, put forward an unfounded and unevidenced hypothesis and used their academic and scientific credentials to evade proper peer review and publish. The best light that can be put on it was that it was hubris of the first magnitude and the worst that it was near fraudulent.

The never ending and pointless hot fusion project crowd had visions of endless jobs for the boys. After fifty or sixty years, no progress. If they worked for a private company the would have been sacked long ago.
In the same way that nuclear physicists and engineers working for private industry are dismissed for their nonsensical support of badly designed kettles? Or perhaps in the same way that geologists and chemists should be fired for their continual support of polluting state supported industries and that's ignoring CO2. Companies love big capital intensive projects.

Incidentally, I believe DARPA is still investigating the phenomenon and they are very much part of academia. Interestingly neither Elon Musk nor Dyson, both very much outsiders, have shown any interest in "cold fusion".
The fringe is an interesting phrase, being another way of saying it's something that science prefers not to mention.
That is not what I said. I suggest you read what I wrote, not what you would have liked me to say.
Don't kid yourself about time. There is no known method by which you can prove, scientifically or philosophically, that it exists.
And I have no intention of so doing. I stated that even if "Time" is found to be unnecessary for the functioning adequate theories about the universe than there remains the anthropic problem. We experience what we call time. We also observe entropy, smooth space and absolute position. Again, read what I said not what you want me to say.
:roll:
 
Rourke_Wality said:
Fleischmann and Pons have been attacked and hounded at every opportunity.
And rightly so.
At first they were insiders. This of course made them inherently wrong... ;) Of course since they were wrong, they became outsiders. Being outsiders made them inherently right. ;)
 
oldrover said:
Cochise said:
The presentation the car as new technology when it's all been around for a hundred years. See the link I provided.

Gif - Isn't it commercial rather than scientific interests that have 'sat on' various car technologies? The Doble flash boiler steam car for example?

I'm confused by this, why would a commercial organisation stifle its own products rather than, as we actually see, try to use any advancement they can to push their product. As long as it's commercially expedient of course.
They sit on technology because it's not economically viable. As long as they can make more money without having to retool their assembly lines to make new components, they will keep doing the same thing. When they are forced to change their practices or meet new standards, suddenly they will find themselves able to do it.

But that's a whole other discussion.
 
Ghostisfort said:
Well, Tesla's alternator didn't take long to go on-line.

...but by your rules it's clearly not a new invention, since there were already electric motors and generators decades before.

Or perhaps James Dyson should also count, since he also used a new physical principle to do the same job as other vacuumcleaners.?
 
wembley9 said:
... Or perhaps James Dyson should also count, since he also used a new physical principle to do the same job as other vacuumcleaners.?
Dyson used an already existent technology as well; vortex cleaners had been used for years to remove sawdust and other powders on an industrial scale. Dyson's innovation was to see that die formed plastics could produce the vortex in a much smaller cylinder.

BTW I am old enough that I hear the name "Dyson" and think Freeman before James. If Freeman Dyson had designed a vortex cleaner it would have been for planetary debris - which is cool.
 
Anome_ said:
... When they are forced to change their practices or meet new standards, suddenly they will find themselves able to do it.

But that's a whole other discussion.

I agree with you there as far as safety features etc are concerned because they don't 'sell' the car, frills, bells and whistles seem to get stuck on immediately because they do.

At least that's what I tend to think.
 
You'd be surprised at how often the 'frills' are added because they are actually cheaper to produce, electric windows for example.

When I was doing some work at Fords back in the 80's it was calculated that if they made all their Escorts either 4 door Ghias or 2 door XR3i's with no spec variation they could be cheaper than the then price of the base model. It was rejected as a plan by the commercial arm because all the little spec variations were viewed as essential to fleet sales - it would never do for the vice-president under manager of hygene at Acme Products to have the same spec car as the assistant vice president under manager of hygene.
 
Initially this struck me as a bit unlikely, but thinking about it again you're right.
Good point.

It was rejected as a plan by the commercial arm because all the little spec variations were viewed as essential to fleet sales - it would never do for the vice-president under manager of hygene at Acme Products to have the same spec car as the assistant vice president under manager of hygene.

As daft as this sort of hierarchy of optional extras may sound to the rational person it's very real. I don't know if anyone else has seen this but about twenty years ago the BBC did a programme accompanying reps around in their cars, and interviewing them as to what they represented to them. It's the weirdest insight into someone else's point of view I've ever seen. It dealt with the rejection and trauma of being allocated a Maestro, which left a grown man and woman weeping. And how reps use the Cavalier's colour coded bumpers to calculate if they should allow them to overtake or not. I'm not describing it well but I'd urge everyone to watch it.
 
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