Spy Murder "Too Sensitive For Court"

Jonfairway

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Messages
1,400
Reaction score
90
Points
79
oh yes

i forgot

there is still the ignore the content and attack the delivery going on afer all these years...type of debunkery ??? i had rather hoped that had ceased.


i am not renowned for being a sweet talker :) it has to be said

i am not always gramitically neat and tidy, or wordy and sophisticated

but i have been doing "problem solving" for 26 years !!!! in IT
 

Spookdaddy

Cuckoo
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
6,987
Reaction score
8,944
Points
294
Location
Midwich
Jonfairway said:
...1. convince me we wasnt murdered ( that would be good )
2. Convince me someone didnt remove the evidence and clean up...
You see, this is the problem: you don't seem to be taking in the content of some the ideas that you give the appearance of responding to.

For instance, there's absolutely nothing in the suggestion I made a couple of pages back which discounts the possibility of either murder or cover-up - and yet you seem to have responded to it as if there were.

It's difficult to come to any other conclusion than that you have reached a very narrow and inflexible one of your own, and that no other will do - and therefore it seems to me that all appeals to 'thoughtfully question' what went on are self-serving - and not a little hypocritical - because as far as you appear to be concerned any of that thoughtful questioning which doesn't go along with your own narrow view is 'debunkery'.

there is still the ignore the content and attack the delivery going on afer all these years...
And don't even try this one. I certainly haven't done any such thing. Has anyone else? Or are you just dusting off the strawman? (It appears to be de rigueur at the moment for people to hide their inability to countenance differing opinions behind a smokescreen of claims that they're being bullied over their grammar.)
 

Quake42

Warrior Princess
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Messages
9,310
Reaction score
3,797
Points
219
For instance, there's absolutely nothing in the suggestion I made a couple of pages back which discounts the possibility of either murder or cover-up - and yet you seem to have responded to it as if there were.
I think pretty much everyone posting on this thread has acknowledged that Williams' death was the result of foul play and most also seem to agree that the intelligence services of one or more countries are likely to be involved. I'm not really sure what the argument is about now TBH.
 

Spookdaddy

Cuckoo
Joined
May 24, 2006
Messages
6,987
Reaction score
8,944
Points
294
Location
Midwich
I'm not entirely sure myself - which was kind of my point.

Edit: Actually, maybe I should say that I am pretty sure what the conclusion is that Jonfairway wants us all to reach - but that I'm not sure how he expects to convince anyone of it by arguing points nobody has much contended.
 

Jonfairway

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Messages
1,400
Reaction score
90
Points
79
Edit: Actually, maybe I should say that I am pretty sure what the conclusion is that Jonfairway wants us all to reach - but that I'm not sure how he expects to convince anyone of it by arguing points nobody has much contended.
case of what best suits the known facts Spook

not completely 100 % sure of course

but normally what seems to be the case usually is the case
 

Jonfairway

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Messages
1,400
Reaction score
90
Points
79
Your OK with MI6 covering up ? Spook ?

thats the crux

we're all ok with that, what ever they did was ok


the fact that they tampered , points me to think they know more than they are letting on

perhaps they know exactly what is going on ?

anyway this is my last post on the subject, i think its a poor state of affairs when certain government depts are above the law

thats my view anyway
 

Sergeant_Pluck

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
485
Reaction score
7
Points
24
Jonfairway said:
points me to think they know more than they are letting on
Who'd've thought it, eh? A secret service keeping things secret. Whatever is the world coming to?
 

Heckler

The unspeakable mass
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Messages
5,289
Reaction score
2,232
Points
219
Jonfairway said:
Your OK with MI6 covering up ? Spook ?

thats the crux

we're all ok with that, what ever they did was ok


the fact that they tampered , points me to think they know more than they are letting on

perhaps they know exactly what is going on ?

anyway this is my last post on the subject, i think its a poor state of affairs when certain government depts are above the law

thats my view anyway
So just to recap on the facts, someone who was employed by SIS may or may not have been murdered by person or persons unknown and then the crime (if there was one) may or may not have been covered up by person or persons unknown.

Based on this you've concluded that SIS have murdered someone, covered it up, told the police to get stuffed (because they are apparently above the law) and what's more we're all okay with that.

:? Huh?
 

stu neville

Commissioner.
Staff member
Joined
Mar 9, 2002
Messages
12,608
Reaction score
6,718
Points
309
Jonfairway said:
Your OK with MI6 covering up ? Spook ?
Did he say that. somewhere, then?

Jonfairway said:
..the fact that they tampered , points me to think they know more than they are letting on..
Do we know they tampered with evidence? And BTW you can't reasonably say "there's no evidence that they didn't tamper" and hope that makes us all go away.
Jonfairway said:
..perhaps they know exactly what is going on ?..thats my view anyway
Or perhaps they don't.
 

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
52,025
Reaction score
27,353
Points
309
Location
Eblana
:cry: Sadly Stuneville has become one of them.
 

stu neville

Commissioner.
Staff member
Joined
Mar 9, 2002
Messages
12,608
Reaction score
6,718
Points
309
ramonmercado said:
:cry: Sadly Stuneville has become one of them.
Or maybe I haven't.

Can keep this up all day, y'know...
 

Jonfairway

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Messages
1,400
Reaction score
90
Points
79
Do we know they tampered with evidence? And BTW you can't reasonably say "there's no evidence that they didn't tamper" and hope that makes us all go away.
they admitted removing evidence from the scene of crime !!!!

keep up Stu
 

Jonfairway

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Messages
1,400
Reaction score
90
Points
79
So just to recap on the facts, someone who was employed by SIS may or may not have been murdered by person or persons unknown and then the crime (if there was one) may or may not have been covered up by person or persons unknown.

Based on this you've concluded that SIS have murdered someone, covered it up, told the police to get stuffed (because they are apparently above the law) and what's more we're all okay with that.
the investigation conlcuded it was not an accident and foul play was involved by persons unknown

unless you are disagreeing with everything of course Heckler
 

Heckler

The unspeakable mass
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Messages
5,289
Reaction score
2,232
Points
219
Jonfairway said:
unless you are disagreeing with everything of course Heckler
No Jon, just your incredible leaps of unfounded deduction. ;)
 

Jonfairway

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Messages
1,400
Reaction score
90
Points
79
that is something your entitled to do Heckler without a doubt

have a great weekend :)
 

Quake42

Warrior Princess
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Messages
9,310
Reaction score
3,797
Points
219
As I say I don't think anyone is arguing that Williams died as a result of foul play. Most people also seem to accept that there was likely to have been some involvement by spooks from one or more countries.

Not everyone agrees with JonFairway's preferred explanation, but that's another matter.

I'm really baffled as to what the argument is about.
 

Kellydandodi

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
133
Reaction score
3
Points
34
Well, apparently:

http://www.jamesbondisforreal.com/

James Bond was/is real. Underground bases, Q style inventions, golden guns, moonbases - the whole shebang was fictionalized reportage of Fleming and cousin Christopher Lee's exploits countering suriviving Nazi megalomaniacs in the forties and fifties as part of a proto SAS.
 

Mythopoeika

I am a meat popsicle
Joined
Sep 18, 2001
Messages
44,032
Reaction score
35,979
Points
309
Location
Inside a starship, watching puny humans from afar
Kellydandodi said:
Well, apparently:

http://www.jamesbondisforreal.com/

James Bond was/is real. Underground bases, Q style inventions, golden guns, moonbases - the whole shebang was fictionalized reportage of Fleming and cousin Christopher Lee's exploits countering suriviving Nazi megalomaniacs in the forties and fifties as part of a proto SAS.
So Christopher Lee really is Scaramanga?
 

Kellydandodi

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
133
Reaction score
3
Points
34
Mythopoeika said:
Kellydandodi said:
Well, apparently:

http://www.jamesbondisforreal.com/

James Bond was/is real. Underground bases, Q style inventions, golden guns, moonbases - the whole shebang was fictionalized reportage of Fleming and cousin Christopher Lee's exploits countering suriviving Nazi megalomaniacs in the forties and fifties as part of a proto SAS.
So Christopher Lee really is Scaramanga?
He may have met the real one, yes!
 

GNC

King-Sized Canary
Joined
Aug 25, 2001
Messages
32,019
Reaction score
19,279
Points
309
Don't think there were any moonbases in Fleming's Bond originals, were there?
 

GNC

King-Sized Canary
Joined
Aug 25, 2001
Messages
32,019
Reaction score
19,279
Points
309
Kellydandodi said:
gncxx said:
Don't think there were any moonbases in Fleming's Bond originals, were there?
Yes - in Moonraker.
In the film, yeah (though it was a space station, not a moonbase), but not in the original book.
 

rynner2

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
Joined
Aug 7, 2001
Messages
55,231
Reaction score
9,134
Points
284
MI6 codebreaker Gareth Williams 'probably locked himself into sports bag'
MI6 codebreaker Gareth Williams probably locked himself into the sports bag where his naked body was found and was not the victim of a hit by the security services, Scotland Yard has found after conducting a review of the case.
By Duncan Gardham
6:01PM GMT 26 Dec 2012

Dr Fiona Wilcox, the Westminster Coroner, said earlier this year that she could not rule out the involvement of the security services in the death.
The ruling sparked a review of the case by Scotland Yard’s murder squad which has re-interviewed his colleagues from MI6 and taken DNA samples over the last seven months.

Detectives had believed that someone else must have locked the codebreaker in the bag and launched a search for a mysterious Mediterranean couple, who were later ruled out of inquiries. The Daily Telegraph understands detectives now believe that he probably died alone.

“They have been unable to find any trace of anyone who should not have been in the flat and every reason to believe that Gareth may have climbed into the bag himself and been unable to get out,” a source close to the inquiry said.

The keys to the red North Face holdall were found in the bottom of the bag when Mr Williams’s naked body was found in the empty bath of his apartment in Pimlico, central London in August 2010.

Two experts tried a total of 400 times to lock themselves into the bag and one claimed that even world-famous escapologist Harry Houdini "would have struggled" to squeeze himself inside.
But days after the inquest verdict a retired Army sergeant showed how it was possible to climb into a similar North Face bag and lock it from the inside.
Scotland Yard detectives have now been able to repeat the experiment with some slight differences to the way the bag is locked that fits with how Gareth Williams was found in August 2010.

Dr Wilcox, a former negligence barrister, had ruled that the lack of hand and footprints in the bathroom was "significant" but it understood that police have also been able to identify around 300 fingerprints in the flat.

The coroner also dismissed speculation that Mr Williams died as a result of some kind of "auto-erotic activity", but detectives now believe that is probably the only option left.
A spokesman for the Metropolitan Police said the investigation remained "active" and that officers were still exploring "a number of lines of enquiry."

The inquest had heard that Mr Williams, a codebreaker for GCHQ who was on secondment to MI6, had been found in his boxer shorts and tied to his bed by his landlord and landlady in Cheltenham a few years earlier.
Video footage found on a mobile phone in Mr Williams's flat showed him dressed in nothing but black leather boots as he “wiggled and gyrated" for the camera.
He kept pictures of drag queens on his computer and had £20,000-worth of designer women's clothes in his flat along with women’s shoes and wigs.
He browsed self-bondage websites and sites about claustrophilia - the love of enclosure - on his computers and phone and was looking at fetish websites days before his death.

Friends and family were upset at speculation that Mr Williams may have been gay and speculated that "some agency specialising in the dark arts" was behind his killing.

In her ruling, Dr Wilcox said there was no evidence to suggest the spy was a transvestite "or interested in any such thing".
The make-up found in his flat was more likely to reflect his interest in fashion and the wigs were "far more consistent with dress-up such as attendance at a manga conference", she said.
The suggestion that his interest in female footwear could have been of a sexual nature, was not unusual, Dr Wilcox observed.

Mr Williams’s colleagues at MI6 had failed to report him missing for a week and did not turn over nine memory sticks and a black bag that was under his desk at their Vauxhall Cross headquarters, sparking rumours of a cover-up.

The coroner said it remained a "legitimate line of inquiry" that the secret services were involved in Mr Williams's death although there was no firm evidence.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... s-bag.html
 

escargot

Disciple of Marduk
Joined
Aug 24, 2001
Messages
32,749
Reaction score
40,414
Points
309
Location
HM The Tower of London
As I've probably mentioned, people who are into claustrophilia seem to take delight in contriving elaborate situations for themselves. Now and then they get stuck and need rescuing, or are not found in time and are discovered dead in bizarre settings.

During my MA research I had access to online medical journals and found many fascinating accounts of injuries and deaths from various forms of self-bondage.
One of the most interesting was the death of a man in his home-made 'vacuum cage', constructed from plumbing pipes, heavy-duty plastic sheets and a Hoover. I think I've described the set-up already.

:shock:

and again, :shock:
 

LordRsmacker

Abominable Snowman
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
724
Reaction score
654
Points
109
rynner2 said:
Uh oh.... Plot thickens:
Oh, I don't know, I think that's what our spooks are supposed be doing, keeping tabs on potentially dodgy people and cosying up to them on the quiet. I can't see the benefit of exposing who, what and why our Secret Squirrels are working on. That's their job, leave them to it.


I also think that society needs to accept that many many people have "deviant" sexual urges and desires, at least as seen from the accepted norm. If this spy was a raving queen, liked locking himself in tricky bondage situations, and was also partial to a spot of cross-dressing, well, so what? Apart from himself, tragically, he wasn't hurting anyone. If the consensus was that he was a kinkster and died in a terrible act of misadventure, fine, let's just move on.

I've heard that some people actually don't service their Mrs exclusively in the Missionary position, and some even have the lights on! So what? We all have different tastes and triggers, vive le difference.

If I am ever found dead in suspicious circumstances, I sincerely hope my family can simply accept the fact that I enjoy several, erm, "alternative pursuits" , and try to blot that out when they think of me. (Yeah, like that time I fainted in a very petite Domme's studio. How the hell she managed to brace my weight and push me high enough to release the restraints, I don't know, adreneline I guess. We both learned something that day!)
My family and friends ain't going to want to hear about my foibles, but fuck 'em, I don't particualrly want to know what pushes their buttons either. The thought of sleeping with one woman exclusively, in a marital bed, for 40 odd years of my life, makes me feel quite queasy. If they get hung up (cough) on trying to paint me as the sweet, innocent chap I might have once been 30 years ago, the REAL reasons behind my demise might be obscured or lost permanently.

Perhaps certain mysterious deaths and disappearances (like, oooh, that female chef that went missing a few years ago?) would be solved a lot quicker if families weren't in such denial about their loved ones liking their sex to be anything but vanilla.
I know some very "respectable" women who adore being ploughed by teams of rougharses like me, and I'm only too happy to help out. If I recognised one of their faces in an appeal for information, I'd be obliged to spill the beans (if only to the investigating officers rather than The Sun), but I may very well be in the minority. Someone with really crucial info might be stricken with Catholic guilt and keep quiet, which in fact may only amplify the shock/horror for the families, and also ramp up the excitement of the aforementioned Shitsheet, who would dutifully print every lurid detail under the guise of "news", when the truth finally did come out.

It has occurred to me on occasion that I know nothing about some of my intimate associates, other than a probably false first name...and what they really really like to do for fun. It's quite a dampener to think that I have no concrete get-out if one of my little recreational soirees goes awfully wrong and I'm left in a strange place, cradling a dead person about whom I know nothing. Whilst dressed like, ahem, a rapist in black leather and a face mask. Yeah, I know, I know...but it floated her boat!



Erm, anyway, less of that, maybe we should concentrate on investigating so-called pillars of society with genuine, SERIOUSLY twisted sexual urges instead? (Or rather, their mates who haven't been buried at 45 degrees in their shellsuits yet, and are still roaming about).

Now, Escargot, talk to me about this vaccuum contraption...purely for, um, "research" purposes only...
 

Jonfairway

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Messages
1,400
Reaction score
90
Points
79
mmmm strange those links have GONE !!!! 404

found this tho

http://www.news.com.au/world/spy-in-bag ... 6545626323

from the 30th December

THE MI6 code breaker who was found dead inside a sport's bag in a London flat had reportedly been in contact with the son of a Kazakh oil oligarch.
Police in the UK are investigating Gareth Williams' contact with Furkat Ibragimov, the son of a Kazakh billionaire, in the months leading up to his death Britain's Daily Telegraph reports.
The 25 year old is one of four sons of oil baron Alijan Ibragimov, listed in the 400 richest people in the world, and lives in London where he has invested millions in oil and a health drink company. Just how they met and if Mr Ibragimov knew Mr Williams worked for MI6 is not known, though the pair are thought to have a mutual friend in Miss Elizabeth Guthrie.
Miss Guthrie met Mr Williams in the last year of his life and shared a flat with his old school friend, she is also said to be close with Mr Ibragimov and calls him 'Shark', The Telegraph reported.
News of a new police investigation into the 31-year-old's death comes just days after a Scotland Yard review of the case found he most likely locked himself in the bag where his body was found. A fresh investigation came after Westminster Coroner, Dr Fiona Wilcox, said earlier this year she could not rule out the involvement of the security services in the death.
Witnesses at the coronial inquest were questioned about any possible link between Mr Williams and Mr Ibragimov.
Miss Guthrie told the coroner that Mr Williams "never mentioned" Mr Ibragimov to her.
But a MI6 officer who gave evidence behind a screen and was identified only as F, refused to answer when asked if Mr Williams knew or was in contact with anyone from the central Asian republic of Kyrgyzstan where Mr Ibragimov's father was born. F said she was unable to provide answers to those questions on security grounds.
The Telegraph also reports that Williams was involved in field activities with MI6 and there are suggestions he may have been followed after meeting with undercover agents for the intelligence service.
MI6 is fully co-operating with this new investigation after it was criticised for failing to pass on vital information into previous probes and witnesses, friends and acquaintances have been re-interviewed.
Photographs, videos and outfits kept in the MI6-owned flat said to be related to Mr Williams' supposed interest in bondage are being re-examined to see if they were staged.
"This remains an active investigation and officers continue to explore a number of lines of inquiry. Officers retain an open mind in relation to the circumstances surrounding the death of Mr Williams," a Scotland Yard spokesperson said.
 

Jonfairway

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Messages
1,400
Reaction score
90
Points
79
had the chap that did manage to get himself locked in also tried this when the bag was in the bath and the bath had water in it ?

as he was actually found ?

????

just a thought !!!
 

Jonfairway

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Messages
1,400
Reaction score
90
Points
79
and then there is the presence of the date rape drug !!!
 
Top