Spy Murder "Too Sensitive For Court"

AngelAlice

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Spookdaddy said:
AngelAlice said:
There's been an awful lot of contradicting going on hasn't there? :confused:
Expert witnesses having different opinions isn't really that rare, especially, I suspect, with something as specialised as locking yourself in a piece of luggage. What does surprise me is that there are that many people who specialise in the subject, or even that there's such a thing as a 'confined space expert'. I mean, how do you get into that?
It's not the contradictory opinions so much as the contradictory claims by the police. Did the woman PC perform the feat or no? Was there liquid or no? Were there signs of another person in the flat or no? Was the man a bondage fan or no?

As to medical opinion - people are weird, I know, and they do weird things, but I don't easily see how a man would lock himself in the bag and then just lie there suffocating without trying to get out. And if he'd tried to get out his hands, and probably all of his body would show signs of a violent struggle. He'd likely shred his nails and gash his fingers to pieces trying to claw his way free.

I guess all things are possible, but the locking-himself-in theory does not seem the most probable from anything i've read.
 

Sergeant_Pluck

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I find it faintly amusing that anyone would consider the locking-himself-in theory in the first place. Someone killed him, stuck him in the bag as a means to transport the body with relative lack of suspicion (presumably a rolled-up carpet wasn't available) - then was disturbed and simply left him there. The flat being 'wiped down' was a pretty big indicator of 3rd party involvement, IMO.
 

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Sergeant_Pluck said:
I find it faintly amusing that anyone would consider the locking-himself-in theory in the first place. Someone killed him, stuck him in the bag as a means to transport the body with relative lack of suspicion (presumably a rolled-up carpet wasn't available) - then was disturbed and simply left him there. The flat being 'wiped down' was a pretty big indicator of 3rd party involvement, IMO.
I think the whole thing stinks. But he could, conceivably have locked himself in the bag, thats the Fortean aspect imho.
 

Mythopoeika

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Sergeant_Pluck said:
The flat being 'wiped down' was a pretty big indicator of 3rd party involvement, IMO.
Exactly so. It is a BIG indicator.
 

Bigfoot73

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Did the woman PC perform the feat or no? Was there liquid or no? Were there signs of another person in the flat or no? Was the man a bondage fan or no?
This inquiry is stubbornly fixating on the issue of whether he locked himself in the bag when it seems there is very little chance that he did. There's no hard evidence he was a bondage fan, he wasn't wearing anything fetish and there were no accessories or porn found. Nobody has produced any indication that there actually is some sort of bondage trick involving confinement in such things as sports bags.
Nobody has suggested an explanation for why , when he wasn't tied up, he didn't struggle. It's only a holdall and you might think somebody in imminent danger of suffocation would have been able to struggle forcefully enough to maybe break the stitching somewhere and rip it apart from the inside out. Williams was a cyclist, surely he would have had strong enough legs?
He was found with his hands crossed across his chest, he hadn't struggled. Why not? Why on earth has the investigation gone down this line of inquiry when there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to justify it? Attempting to avoid opening cans of worms I suspect.
 

Heckler

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Jonfairway said:
becouse its a cover up !!!!
You state that with such apparent conviction, tell us then, of what and by whom?
 

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Heckler20 said:
Jonfairway said:
becouse its a cover up !!!!
You state that with such apparent conviction, tell us then, of what and by whom?
By asking that question you prove that you are one of THEM.
 

Heckler

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ramonmercado said:
By asking that question you prove that you are one of THEM.
And by pointing that out you create the confusion that you are not one of THEM thus strengthening your own cover persona.
 

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Heckler20 said:
ramonmercado said:
By asking that question you prove that you are one of THEM.
And by pointing that out you create the confusion that you are not one of THEM thus strengthening your own cover persona.
Ramon, I'll get the suitcase - you go to Poundshop for the cleaning stuff.
 

Jonfairway

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Jonfairway wrote:
becouse its a cover up !!!!


You state that with such apparent conviction, tell us then, of what and by whom?
okay

it has been established he could not have locked himself in the bag ? yes ?
the was no sign of struggle to escape ? yes ?
he had date rape drugs in his system ? yes ?
he had not turned up for work when he was due, and was not chased to find out why not by MI6 ? yes ?
MI6 said they had no idea he was into any type of bondage/sm ?yes ?
He had just finished a project which was high profile for MI6 ? yes ?
His own finger prints were missing from items in his home ? yes ?
Evidence was removed by MI6 for two years from the police ? yes ?
other finger prints were on the holdall ? yes ?
some type of fluid to speed up decay and hide evidence was in the bath ? yes ?

okay those are facts that have been admitted at the hearings


Your options to fit thiose facts are

1. He did it by accident ?
2. He commited suicide with assistance ?
3. He was murdered by a gay lover ?
4. He was murdered by terrorists ?
5. He was silenced by MI6 ?
6. Aliens did it ?

1. is out he couldnt have got in bag ?
2. There was no sign of a note, and he had booked holidays, and CCTV showed nothing, Why would assistant have to clean the house of his fingerprints.
3. is out could his gay lover have got MI6 to not chase were he was for a week ?
4. Could terrorists stop MI6 finding out why he hadnt turned up for work ? are not MI6 supposed to be watching for terrorists killing their spys ?
5. ?????
6. well i suppose it could be aliens but we all know thats unlikely, why would they use date rape drugs instead of alien implant technology ?

Only Mi6 could do all the things ?
only they can remove evidence and get away with it
its their job to know that their operative is gay or into BDSM etc , they could not risk him getting compromised and becoming a turncoat.
they would know how to make the body decompossed quickly
they had access before the police to remove evidence !


question is'nt who did this or how, its WHY ?
 

Heckler

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Jonfairway said:
Only Mi6 could do all the things ?
only they can remove evidence and get away with it
its their job to know that their operative is gay or into BDSM etc , they could not risk him getting compromised and becoming a turncoat.
they would know how to make the body decompossed quickly
they had access before the police to remove evidence !


question is'nt who did this or how, its WHY ?
Er no. You kind of forget that at the height of the cold war MI6 had a Moscow mole at it's very heart, clearly its vetting procedure isn't fool proof. As to the rest of your statements, you work from the assumption that somehow SIS has superhuman powers. Yet after putting the guy in a bag it forgot to do anything about him after he died, leaving him to be discovered, rather an oversight for an all seeing, all knowing intelligence service.

I'll concur he was likely as not killed by person or persons unknown or at least incapacitated and confined which lead to his death, as to the who or the why, frankly any theory at this stage is conjecture.

An equally plausible scenario for example is a misguided attempt by a foreign power to kidnap the guy, which goes wrong after he suffocates, or even just a random crime that actually had nothing what so ever to do with his day job.

Was the flat wiped down after his death by SIS? Well again potentially unreleated to his death, that is a possibility, if other Intelligence Officers had visited him there, explaining fingerprints of active IOs at a crime scene would have been potentially 'uncomfortable', however in attempting to avoid that discomfort they merely created more grist for the conspiracy mill.
 

Jonfairway

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none of your suggestions could stop his employers chasing why he had not turned up at work for a week....

MI6 witheld evidence from the police ? in a murder enquiry, if they had evidence of him being kidnapped and accidently killed, they would have pushed that as the reason for hi death in a flash...

your arguements dont hold water mate !
 

Quake42

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Er no. You kind of forget that at the height of the cold war MI6 had a Moscow mole at it's very heart, clearly its vetting procedure isn't fool proof
I would add that the vetting process is not intended to screen out anyone with non-vanilla sexual interests. Applicants will certainly be quizzed on their sexuality but the idea is to have things out in the open so that blackmail is less likely. Williams could well have been gay, it wouldn't have been a problem provided he was honest when asked about it.

I'm inclining towards the theory that the body was left in the bag for easy transportation from the scene but then something went wrong, or perhaps the second half of the clean-up team just didn't turn up.
 

Heckler

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Jonfairway said:
none of your suggestions could stop his employers chasing why he had not turned up at work for a week....

MI6 witheld evidence from the police ? in a murder enquiry, if they had evidence of him being kidnapped and accidently killed, they would have pushed that as the reason for hi death in a flash...

your arguements dont hold water mate !
I don't work for SIS, I'll wager you don't either, I therefore have no idea of the arrangements in place for absence of an Intelligence Officer (bearing in mind the concept of need to know tends, one would imagine, to be a central facit of the organisation). Thus is a week long absence noteworthy to anyone but his immediate supervisor. I have no idea and neither do you.

As I said I merely postulated a theory that didn't require SIS murdering their staff because he, like the characters in bad HP Lovecraft rip offs, learned something man was not meant to know.

Ultimately the amount of water all such arguments hold in the absence of any concrete information is roughly equivilent to a sieve. I do however remain open minded and not therefore indulging a confirmation bias that SIS involvement always equals cover up, because they are 'The Man' and 'The Man' is inherently evil and unpleasent and probably stamps on kittens as a hobby.
 

Jonfairway

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I don't work for SIS, I'll wager you don't either, I therefore have no idea of the arrangements in place for absence of an Intelligence Officer (bearing in mind the concept of need to know tends, one would imagine, to be a central facit of the organisation). Thus is a week long absence noteworthy to anyone but his immediate supervisor. I have no idea and neither do you.

As I said I merely postulated a theory that didn't require SIS murdering their staff because he, like the characters in bad HP Lovecraft rip offs, learned something man was not meant to know.

Ultimately the amount of water all such arguments hold in the absence of any concrete information is roughly equivilent to a sieve. I do however remain open minded and not therefore indulging a confirmation bias that SIS involvement always equals cover up, because they are 'The Man' and 'The Man' is inherently evil and unpleasent and probably stamps on kittens as a hobby.
i have never heard of any government/civil servant dept that does not bother to see "why" their employees have been absent for a week ?!?
or any private company for that matter, the alram should have gone up after two days !!!

so i'm not buying thats their policy !!!

anything i said was not aimed in way personally at You Heckler, we all have our opinions after all, and i am quite sure he was silienced for a good reason anyway !
 

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i have never heard of any government/civil servant dept that does not bother to see "why" their employees have been absent for a week ?!?
or any private company for that matter, the alram should have gone up after two days !!!
I have to agree with this. I can't believe that any employer, let alone one such as SIS, would make no attempt to follow up on an employee's unexplained absence for an entire week. I would have expected as a minimum phone calls to Williams on day 2 and then a call to his family/ emergency contact shortly afterwards. Given that he was living in an SIS flat, it would seem to be a simple matter to drop in there if otehr attempts to make contact proved fruitless.

It really does beggar belief that no one raised the alarm for a week. Particularly given that Williams appears to have been a reliable employee with no history of unauthorised absences.
 

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Quake42 said:
It really does beggar belief that no one raised the alarm for a week. Particularly given that Williams appears to have been a reliable employee with no history of unauthorised absences.
It does I agree, however the point I was trying to make is I am unsure of how the command structure works and whether this appaarent failing in their duty of care is evidence of something sinister or of a lax management that for wahtever reason (direct manager absent his/herself for example) didn't pick up on Williams' absence.

In all honesty the whole case is decidely odd and the handling by all concerned equally so. Whether that is because of the fact it's on the periphery of spookdom and in the panic to avoid publicity a mystery has been invented abeit accidently or simply because the facts even to those in the know just don't make sense I have no idea.

What I am cautious of and I mentioned earlier is leaping to the conclusion that somehow the involvement of Intelligence immediately denotes a sinister conspiracy and that Williams therefore has to be a victim of said conspiracy.
 

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It does I agree, however the point I was trying to make is I am unsure of how the command structure works and whether this appaarent failing in their duty of care is evidence of something sinister or of a lax management that for wahtever reason (direct manager absent his/herself for example) didn't pick up on Williams' absence.

In all honesty the whole case is decidely odd and the handling by all concerned equally so. Whether that is because of the fact it's on the periphery of spookdom and in the panic to avoid publicity a mystery has been invented abeit accidently or simply because the facts even to those in the know just don't make sense I have no idea.

What I am cautious of and I mentioned earlier is leaping to the conclusion that somehow the involvement of Intelligence immediately denotes a sinister conspiracy and that Williams therefore has to be a victim of said conspiracy.
i would agree Heckler if there had been only them not bothering to find out where he was and he was found dead of lets say natural causes.

but we havent got that ? have we ?
we have evidence taken from scene and withheld from police
cleaning of the room apparently
dodgy fingerprints on bag
and then the wierd death itself with evidense of rape drugs present

to many things seem wrong !!!!
 

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Jonfairway said:
to many things seem wrong !!!!
Yes, but I am unsure how this feeling (which as I stated I share) inevitably and inexorably proves a nefarious conspiracy with Williams having his employment terminated with extreme prejudice (albeit rather clumsily) by SIS for reasons unknown. Intelligence Agents don't as a rule tend to be killed for knowing things, that's kind of the raisen d'etre of their job and would be kind of off putting at the recruitment interview.

"Fancy working for SIS?"
"Sure"
"One thing worth mentioning, if you actually read anything secret we stick you in a bag until you suffocate."
"Fine, what are the hours?"
 

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I bet that is how the average interview goes. :lol:
 

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I'm not sure why people seem convinced it was an MI6 inside job. Surely it's every bit as likely (perhaps more so) to be foreign agents?
 

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Quake42 said:
I'm not sure why people seem convinced it was an MI6 inside job. Surely it's every bit as likely (perhaps more so) to be foreign agents?
Oh yes. But the fact that it took a week to check up on a missing employee looks a little odd. Either gross incompetence or something more sinister.
 

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I'm not sure why people seem convinced it was an MI6 inside job. Surely it's every bit as likely (perhaps more so) to be foreign agents?

how did these forreign agents get his employers not to seek him being missing for 7 days ?

how did they get MI6 to remove evidence from the polices eyes ?
 

Jonfairway

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Yes, but I am unsure how this feeling (which as I stated I share) inevitably and inexorably proves a nefarious conspiracy with Williams having his employment terminated with extreme prejudice (albeit rather clumsily) by SIS for reasons unknown. Intelligence Agents don't as a rule tend to be killed for knowing things, that's kind of the raisen d'etre of their job and would be kind of off putting at the recruitment interview.
i'm always amazed how you people just sit happiliy with people lying to you and just saying well ok matey !!! whatever

they removed evidence from the crime scene and cleaned the cime scene, thus making it almost impossible to solve the murder.....

They being ?????
 

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ramonmercado said:
Its You! Theirs blood on your tentacles.
Don't be ridiculous, if I murder someone and forensically clean an apartment I at least have the good sense to dispose of the body. These MI6 types are rank amateurs, I am embarrased for them.
 

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how did these forreign agents get his employers not to seek him being missing for 7 days ?

how did they get MI6 to remove evidence from the polices eyes ?
It's possible he was the victim of agents of an officially "friendly" power and any cover up is aimed at avoiding a diplomatic incident.

I do agree the failure of his employers to raise the alarm is fishy though.
 

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Heckler20 said:
ramonmercado said:
Its You! Theirs blood on your tentacles.
Don't be ridiculous, if I murder someone and forensically clean an apartment I at least have the good sense to dispose of the body. These MI6 types are rank amateurs, I am embarrased for them.
You were distracted by the octopus in his aquarium. Bet the plods didn't check its orifices for forensics.
 
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