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The Date Of Christmas

D

decipheringscars

Gone But Not Forgotten
(ACCOUNT RETIRED)
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Please excuse me if this has been done before... I'm new here. :)

I was reading the thread on the Origins of Islam, and a brief side-conversation came up about the date of Christmas.

Popular belief is that the date was chosen to coincide with the pagan festival of the same date.

Here's a link to some discussion about another theory. I read about this in an issue of Bible Review a few years ago.

The article claimed that writings from before Constantine place the date of the feast for Christ's birth on Dec. 25. The author claims that, following an ancient Jewish tradition (that significant events happen at the same time of the year), early Christians decided that Jesus was conceived on the same day he died (30-some years earlier, of course). This also has theological aspects to it. Anyway, add nine months and you get Christmas.

I'm not denying that the Church has coopted many pagan festivals, holy sites, and traditions. I just wanted to present an alternate view about Christmas, for what it's worth.

PS - only fundamentalist Christians are bothered by the idea that their holy days might have pagan influences/origins...
 
Well, the winter Solstice is the 21st of December I think.
 
decipheringscars said:
Please excuse me if this has been done before... I'm new here. :)

I was reading the thread on the Origins of Islam, and a brief side-conversation came up about the date of Christmas.

Popular belief is that the date was chosen to coincide with the pagan festival of the same date.

Here's a link to some discussion about another theory. I read about this in an issue of Bible Review a few years ago.

The article claimed that writings from before Constantine place the date of the feast for Christ's birth on Dec. 25. The author claims that, following an ancient Jewish tradition (that significant events happen at the same time of the year), early Christians decided that Jesus was conceived on the same day he died (30-some years earlier, of course). This also has theological aspects to it. Anyway, add nine months and you get Christmas.

I'm not denying that the Church has coopted many pagan festivals, holy sites, and traditions. I just wanted to present an alternate view about Christmas, for what it's worth.

PS - only fundamentalist Christians are bothered by the idea that their holy days might have pagan influences/origins...
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The romans did not use the same calendar system as we use now, didn't start using the gregorian calendar until pope greg sent his warrior priests to kill all the mayan and aztec priests and leaders and seize or burn all their books. So the Dec 25th date was chosen when they needed the romans to embrace christianity and realized they did not want to give up their holidays. Christmas had nothing to do with the actual time of year Jesus was born, it was about letting the winter celebrations continue, only with new rules. The christmas tree has nothing to do with chrisitanity. Easter is the same, the date we celebrate it conincides with old roman celebrations. Easter bunny has nothing to do with christianity either. If you depend on christian sources for your information you will not get the real or whole story.
 
JahaRa said:
If you depend on christian sources for your information you will not get the real or whole story.
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Actually, many strands teach syncretism as part of history. Blanket statments about "christian sources" rather inhibit getting the real or whole story.
 
An interesting article here, on Space.com - a site devoted to space science and astronomy.

https://www.space.com/star-of-bethlehem summarises the various possible origins of the 'star' described in Matthew's Gospel as occurring around the birth of Jesus, and some tentative date(s).

What I find most telling of the scientific mindset (and, personally very heartening) is the refusal to discount the possibility of the divine in amongst the astronomy - and the article also cites the importance of astrology in combination with astronomy in the ancient world - 2,000 years ago the two were connected.

Grant Mathews, a professor of theoretical astrophysics and cosmology at the University of Notre Dame in Indiana: "...Nothing in science is ever case closed, nor is it in history," Mathews said. "We may never know if the Star of Bethlehem was a conjunction, astrological event or a fable to advance Christianity. Maybe it was simply a miracle."

I find it fascinating that many astronomy academics have been researching the account in the New Testament, yet many of us non-academics seemingly dismiss the whole description as just a 'madeup story'. Could it be that the scientific mindset rules out anti-religious bias? Or just that evidence so far shows that a definitive explanation cannot (yet) be provided either way.

It's when I muse here on FMB in such ways that I miss @EnolaGaia - he would usually understand what I was trying to unpick... :(
 
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AnonyJ said:
An interesting article here, on Space.com - a site devoted to space science and astronomy.

https://www.space.com/star-of-bethlehem summarises the various possible origins of the 'star' described in Matthew's Gospel as occurring around the birth of Jesus, and some tentative date(s).

What I find most telling of the scientific mindset (and, personally very heartening) is the refusal to discount the possibility of the divine in amongst the astronomy - and the article also cites the importance of astrology in combination with astronomy in the ancient world - 2,000 years ago the two were connected.

Grant Mathews, a professor of theoretical astrophysics and cosmology at the University of Notre Dame in Indiana: "...Nothing in science is ever case closed, nor is it in history," Mathews said. "We may never know if the Star of Bethlehem was a conjunction, astrological event or a fable to advance Christianity. Maybe it was simply a miracle."

I find it fascinating that many astronomy academics have been researching the account in the New Testament, yet many of us non-academics seemingly dismiss the whole description as just a 'madeup story'. Could it be that the scientific mindset rules out anti-religious bias? Or just that evidence so far shows that a definitive explanation cannot (yet) be provided either way.

It's when I muse here on FMB in such ways that I miss @EnolaGaia - he would usually understand what I was trying to unpick... :(
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I can understand astronomy academics studying this. Most origin stories or folklore have some tidbit of actual events or occurrences in them.
 
If you're interested in the various 12 days of the festival, the Lucy Worsley documentary about a Tudor Christmas is very informative, from St Stephen's Day, via Innocents' Day to the 12th Day!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000cfd5

Edited to add: it usually becomes available to watch in December :)
 
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JahaRa said:
The romans did not use the same calendar system as we use now, didn't start using the gregorian calendar until pope greg sent his warrior priests to kill all the mayan and aztec priests and leaders and seize or burn all their books. So the Dec 25th date was chosen when they needed the romans to embrace christianity and realized they did not want to give up their holidays. Christmas had nothing to do with the actual time of year Jesus was born, it was about letting the winter celebrations continue, only with new rules. The christmas tree has nothing to do with chrisitanity. Easter is the same, the date we celebrate it conincides with old roman celebrations. Easter bunny has nothing to do with christianity either. If you depend on christian sources for your information you will not get the real or whole story.
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The claim that Easter eggs and the Easter Bunny are also originally pagan is not true.

History for Atheists website debunks this claim:

https://historyforatheists.com/2022/04/easter-pagan/
 
catseye said:
Hm. It's a point of view, but whether it is The truth I am undecided.
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But it's not really a point of view, it is the accumulation of evidence collected and analyzed by professional historians over many years.
 
Matt said:
But it's not really a point of view, it is the accumulation of evidence collected and analyzed by professional historians over many years.
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evidence so far and at the current state of the discipline. Things change and, usually, grow.

I'm not a fan of their being a "right answer" for anything but trivial questions*. Narrators are unreliable and everything has been sifted through at least one human's perceptions.

* Which can be some of the most beautiful.
 
In this household I go to Mass twice and Mr F vanishes all the wrapping paper and general rubble that happened yesterday.

Cold cuts, mince pies and fizz, trifle from various bits and pieces :twothumbs:

Thank you letters are written and then we look at what is left from each other's wish lists and make small purchaes.
 
charliebrown said:
Is Boxing Day still celebrated in the UK ?

If yes, what do people do ?
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Boxing Day carries on in much the same way as Christmas Day as regards eating & drinking but traditionally dinner is mostly the cold remains from the previous day’s turkey or whatever with pickles etc. The cold Boxing Day meal can be just as good or maybe even better than the hot Christmas Day one.
 
catseye said:
Work, usually. The shops all open again because the world might end if all those people who bought enough to sit out a siege on Christmas Eve can't go out to stock up again. Plus, sales.
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^this^. Heaven forbid that retail people have two days off.

Me, I avoid this like the plague. Now, most sales are happening before xmas as this time of year is the make or break time for retailers.

I usually visit with my husband's two sisters that I care to see (there is other family, but no one that I have bothered to contact following his death). One who lives in TO is the eldest and it is when I boarded with her for college, that I met my husband.

The one from TO comes and stays with her second youngest sister, who lives in London, and visits. I visit them on Boxing Day because they've done their family stuff.
 
JahaRa said:
The christmas tree has nothing to do with chrisitanity.
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I don't think the Christmas tree has anything to do with paganism either, according to this author:

"Over the years, in the place of accurate history, an elaborate folk narrative has grown up claiming that Christmas trees are part of some kind of age-old pre-Christian tradition that dates back millennia. In reality, there is no historical evidence that Christmas trees are nearly that old; we have no evidence that would lead us to believe they date back any earlier than the 1400s, but this has not stopped people from trying to find evidence for Christmas trees as an ancient pagan custom".

Full article here: https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2018/12/05/the-origins-of-the-christmas-tree/
 
I'd never before heard the claim that the Christmas tree was supposed to be an ancient pagan custom. Just saying.
 
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