The Holy Blood & The Holy Grail

[Themis]

I bought this book a few days ago at a charity shop because it claimed to be "the most controversial book of the twentieth century". It's a newer edition, not the original one from the 1980s. I'm only about a quarter of the way through it and am enjoyed it much like I would a trashy novel. The research base is distinctly unimpressive, so I can't really take it very seriously as fact. And I don't really know much at all about the whole Knights Templar/Masons stuff. But I gather that a lot of people have taken it much more seriously than I am. So I am wondering if anyone here remembers its original publication. Was it really so controversial? And has anyone read it and been persuaded? Yeah, just looking for views on it, and indeed on any of the follow-ups.

 

[Nosmo King]

I bought this book a few days ago at a charity shop because it claimed to be "the most controversial book of the twentieth century". It's a newer edition, not the original one from the 1980s. I'm only about a quarter of the way through it and am enjoyed it much like I would a trashy novel. The research base is distinctly unimpressive, so I can't really take it very seriously as fact. And I don't really know much at all about the whole Knights Templar/Masons stuff. But I gather that a lot of people have taken it much more seriously than I am. So I am wondering if anyone here remembers its original publication. Was it really so controversial? And has anyone read it and been persuaded? Yeah, just looking for views on it, and indeed on any of the follow-ups.

All i know about it is that there was a lot of hype reignighted about it when 'The Da Vinci Code' came out.

 

[EnolaGaia]

The book was a runaway best seller when first published in 1982. Originally treated as an exercise in suggestive or speculative "alternative history", it had to be re-cast as fiction once the whole Priory of Sion business was exposed as an elaborate hoax. Multiple conspiracy theory elements spawned in the book continued to be influential reference points for similar historical speculations ever since.

The subsequent success of Brown's The Da Vinci Code brought the earlier book and its authors back into the limelight - especially when two of them unsuccessfully sued Brown for plagiarism. The publicity from the lawsuit had the temporary effect of stimulating book sales, but the court proceedings also exposed the vacuous bases for the authors' speculations and left the work to be seen as a mishmash of hand-waving and outright fiction.

I'm not sure whether anyone takes it seriously any more.

There's no thread dedicated to the book, but it's often mentioned and discussed in the threads relating to The Da Vinci Code and similar conspiracy theories.

 

[Frideswide]

Rennes-le-Château is another good thing to search on, as a way into the maze.

 

[hunck]

It was probably the first popular book to suggest Jesus was married [to Mary Magdalene] & had children, with a bloodline lasting to current day - I don't know if the idea existed before. And there seems to be some mystery as to where the local priest found the money to spend renovating the church & other buildings - priests being very poorly paid.

 

[Themis]

All i know about it is that there was a lot of hype reignighted about it when 'The Da Vinci Code' came out.

Ah, yeah, see I kind of missed all of that and never quite understood what it was all about. But I've decided to do things the old-fashioned way and NOT just google it. I'm going to read the book, ask real people, and find out what people were on about. I don't think I'll be reading the Da Vinci Code though. I hear DB is a terrible writer. But still, I'm going to try to figure it all out without relying on Prof Google.

I do want to read Marina Warner's review at some point though. "The rudest review of the decade" or something, they said.

 

[Themis]

The book was a runaway best seller when first published in 1982. Originally treated as an exercise in suggestive or speculative "alternative history", it had to be re-cast as fiction once the whole Priory of Sion business was exposed as an elaborate hoax. Multiple conspiracy theory elements spawned in the book continued to be influential reference points for similar historical speculations ever since.

The subsequent success of Brown's The Da Vinci Code brought the earlier book and its authors back into the limelight - especially when two of them unsuccessfully sued Brown for plagiarism. The publicity from the lawsuit had the temporary effect of stimulating book sales, but the court proceedings also exposed the vacuous bases for the authors' speculations and left the work to be seen as a mishmash of hand-waving and outright fiction.

I'm not sure whether anyone takes it seriously any more.

There's no thread dedicated to the book, but it's often mentioned and discussed in the threads relating to The Da Vinci Code and similar conspiracy theories.

Ah, OK, thanks! I was hesitant about making a thread, but I decided the book itself was interesting enough as an exercise that maybe it had legs. I am a quite curious what people's initial impressions were when the book came out. I have to say, as an actual real-life historian (I've outed myself a bit there) I am fascinated by the methods they use to create this alternative history, and also by the smoke-and-mirrors language of pseudo-history. "It is not unreasonable...", "We can speculate", etc. It's actually rather fascinating.

Do you have any idea about the authors themselves? Did you ever see any interviews or anything? I'll probably google it all eventually, but I want to do a bit of old-fashioned research first! It's more fun.

 

[IbisNibs]

I read Holy Blood, Holy Grail and found it very peculiar. The photo of Pierre Plantard de Saint-Clair, Grand Master of the Prieure de Sion, remains in my memory as an image of holy ennui.

Afterwards, I read Umberto Eco's collection of essays How to Travel with a Salmon, full of facetious yet pithy DIY advice. In it is an essay titled "How to Become a Knight of Malta". It starts "I have received a letter on a piece of paper headed Order Souverain Militaire de Saint-Jean de Jerusalem—Chevaliers de Malte—PreieureOecumenique de la Sainte-Trinite-de-Villedieu—Quartiere Generale de la Vallette—Prieure de Quebec*. The letter contains an invitation to become a Knight of Malta." The essay goes on to explain in hairsplitting detail about the other 15 orders of the Knights of Malta and how they came into existence, and that they're all fake, or at least, unofficial. "How to Become a Knight of Malta" puts Holy Blood, Holy Grail into perfect focus.

PS—The Da Vinci Code book is like a giant cheesy junk food snack for your brain. The Da Vinci Code movie has a fabulous car chase featuring Audrey Tautou driving a Smart Car backwards on a Paris sidewalk. Go for it!

*French accents on the letters have been omitted because I am too lazy tonight to go find them.

 

[Themis]

Rennes-le-Château is another good thing to search on, as a way into the maze.

Yes, I saw there are even a few expeditions of Forteans going out there! Could be fun, though I imagine the locals are rather sick of it all.

 

[Themis]

It was probably the first popular book to suggest Jesus was married [to Mary Magdalene] & had children, with a bloodline lasting to current day - I don't know if the idea existed before. And there seems to be some mystery as to where the local priest found the money to spend renovating the church & other buildings - priests being very poorly paid.

Ah ah! So THAT is where that came from. I have to say, and maybe this is what the passage of even a few decades can do, that really doesn't sound all that damaging to western civilisation...

 

[maximus otter]

I don't think I'll be reading the Da Vinci Code though. I hear DB is a terrible writer.

Me, from the Worst Book thread:

“The hype kept on mounting, so l bought a copy (from a charity shop, luckily) and waded in. l still to this day cannot believe what poorly-written, contrived, turgid shite it was.

l kept on ploughing through, assuring myself that it must improve soon. Reader, it did not.

l would kill myself with a wire brush-mounted Black & Decker before l read another Dan Brown excretion.”

maximus otter

 

[Themis]

I read Holy Blood, Holy Grail and found it very peculiar. The photo of Pierre Plantard de Saint-Clair, Grand Master of the Prieure de Sion, remains in my memory as an image of holy ennui.

Afterwards, I read Umberto Eco's collection of essays How to Travel with a Salmon, full of facetious yet pithy DIY advice. In it is an essay titled "How to Become a Knight of Malta". It starts "I have received a letter on a piece of paper headed Order Souverain Militaire de Saint-Jean de Jerusalem—Chevaliers de Malte—PreieureOecumenique de la Sainte-Trinite-de-Villedieu—Quartiere Generale de la Vallette—Prieure de Quebec*. The letter contains an invitation to become a Knight of Malta." The essay goes on to explain in hairsplitting detail about the other 15 orders of the Knights of Malta and how they came into existence, and that they're all fake, or at least, unofficial. "How to Become a Knight of Malta" puts Holy Blood, Holy Grail into perfect focus.

PS—The Da Vinci Code book is like a giant cheesy junk food snack for your brain. The Da Vinci Code movie has a fabulous car chase featuring Audrey Tautou driving a Smart Car backwards on a Paris sidewalk. Go for it!

*French accents on the letters have been omitted because I am too lazy tonight to go find them.

Ah, now THERE is a man who can write! Umberto Eco, I mean. And he's so funny! Perfect example of that right there, along with his towering erudition, of course. I think I will seek that out immediately upon getting through HBHG. Still not convinced I need Dan B in my life.

 

[Themis]

Me, from the Worst Book thread:

“The hype kept on mounting, so l bought a copy (from a charity shop, luckily) and waded in. l still to this day cannot believe what poorly-written, contrived, turgid shite it was.

l kept on ploughing through, assuring myself that it must improve soon. Reader, it did not.

l would kill myself with a wire brush-mounted Black & Decker before l read another Dan Brown excretion.”

maximus otter

Ya wha? There's a Worst Book thread? Take me to your leader!

 

[Nosmo King]

Ya wha? There's a Worst Book thread? Take me to your leader!

Here is the link

https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/whats-the-worst-book-youve-ever-read.67311/

 

[Themis]

Here is the link

https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/whats-the-worst-book-youve-ever-read.67311/

Thanks! Now I've got to choose my worst book... so hard...

 

[Nosmo King]

Thanks! Now I've got to choose my worst book... so hard...

Dont feel you have to limit it to a single book

 

[stu neville]

Do you have any idea about the authors themselves? Did you ever see any interviews or anything?

EDIT - blame the hayfever meds. HBATHG was by Lincoln et al, wasn't it? Picknett & Prince, about whom I ramble on below wrote The Sion Revelation, which is very similar. HBATHG is not quite as cogent.

Yes. Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince are quite well-known in the Fortean community and they continue to write and publish, and Lynn has written some pieces for the mag. In their defence, whether or not you agree with their conclusions they do their homework (their book on the Turin Shroud is thought-provoking and they write well.) They actually have a cameo in the movie version of The Da Vinvci Code, too.

 

[Analogue Boy]

I read The Holy Blood and The Holy Grail (Baigent, Leigh and Lincoln) when it first came out. To me, it seemed an interesting theory with a similar riff to Chariots of the Gods. As EnolaGaia has pointed out upthread, the main nail on which the story hangs was later proved to be a fantastic fabrication. Nevertheless, the popularity of this number one bestseller spawned a whole library of books on a similar theme of Templars, Church Conspiracy, Bible Codes, Prophecies, Hidden Treasures - all related to ‘facts’ built around the Gospels with truth hidden in obscure documents or famous artworks.

And you should read Dan Brown. A scale has to have a low point you know.

 

[Timble2]

Yes, I saw there are even a few expeditions of Forteans going out there! Could be fun, though I imagine the locals are rather sick of it all.

I did an "In the footsteps of the Cathars", walking holiday back in 2002, started at Monségur where the last of the Cathars were besieged, wound though the Gorge de Galamus, which isn't actually Cathar, but has a weird 7th Century Hermitage carved into the sheer walls of the gorge, through Rennes Le Chateau, the church is very strange and the village had acquired a books shop selling all sorts of earth mysteries and paranormal books. Incidently we went through the village of Bugarach and skirted the mountain the Pech de Bugarach, which a few years later in the run-up to 2012 acquired a small community of people who thought the world was ending and the aliens from the base inside the mountain would carry them away in their spaceships. Also stopped off at the Château de Puivert, another Cathar stronghold, which was used as a setting "The Ninth Gate" film featuring Johnny Depp took place. Chose this holiday after reading Holy Blood, Holy Grail back in the 80's. The Languedoc is a good area for the Fortean traveller, there's plenty of interesting stuff beyond Rennes le Chateau.

BTW: a lot of "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" is bobbins, but it's still quite an interesting entry in the alternative history genre. The Da Vinci Code, is a great unintentional parody of the conspiracy thriller.

 

[dannycheveaux1]

I think this documentary first brought it to attention in UK

 

[Frideswide]

I did an "In the footsteps of the Cathars",

I envy you!

I think this documentary first brought it to attention in UK

I remember being gobsmacked (at eleven, I knew everything and was the fount of all wisdom ) when Chronicle broadcast the first program. I'd seen the series as a sane and exciting way in to history and archaeology and I was already making summaries of the episodes as part of preparing for a degree in archaeology.

Edit to add: I have given away many many copies of Eco's Foucault's Pendulum. Quite often to people who had just enjoyed one of many discussion on this subject!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foucault's_Pendulum

Despite my almost total scepticism, irritation and contempt for some of the twists and turns of reasoning in this area it remains one of my favourite topics! After all, I would be negative about it, I'm a Catholic. Some people would say I would be enthusiastic about it being an Old Catholic.

I would reply that they are talking bobbins

 

[gordonrutter]

Do you have any idea about the authors themselves? Did you ever see any interviews or anything? I'll probably google it all eventually, but I want to do a bit of old-fashioned research first! It's more fun.

I interviewed Henry Lincoln a few years ago. One thing he did say which I had never read before was that when he and one of the other coauthors wrote something the third coauthor took it and changed the word such that ideas etc are by Henry and the other author but all of the actual words and sentences are from the third one. As you may tell I can’t recall off the top of my end is if it was Baigent or Leigh that did the changing!

One thing I found quite telling was that Henry seems to quite enjoy using legal reclaim when he thinks it is appropriate but the legal action against Dan Brown was by Baigent and Leigh only.

 

[Themis]

EDIT - blame the hayfever meds. HBATHG was by Lincoln et al, wasn't it? Picknett & Prince, about whom I ramble on below wrote The Sion Revelation, which is very similar. HBATHG is not quite as cogent.

Yes. Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince are quite well-known in the Fortean community and they continue to write and publish, and Lynn has written some pieces for the mag. In their defence, whether or not you agree with their conclusions they do their homework (their book on the Turin Shroud is thought-provoking and they write well.) They actually have a cameo in the movie version of The Da Vinvci Code, too.

Well, say thanks to the hayfever meds from me! I am quite interested in reading that, again, not really for the "facts" it might offer, but for the wild ride of the methodology and interpretation. So I will certainly look out for "The Sion Revelation". Was it published before HBAHG? Or after? It's quite interesting if this became some sort of alternative historical canon...

 

[Themis]

I interviewed Henry Lincoln a few years ago. One thing he did say which I had never read before was that when he and one of the other coauthors wrote something the third coauthor took it and changed the word such that ideas etc are by Henry and the other author but all of the actual words and sentences are from the third one. As you may tell I can’t recall off the top of my end is if it was Baigent or Leigh that did the changing!

One thing I found quite telling was that Henry seems to quite enjoy using legal reclaim when he thinks it is appropriate but the legal action against Dan Brown was by Baigent and Leigh only.

How interesting. I got the sense from the biographical blurbs that he was quite a serious person, so it's a bit strange he didn't go after DB for making his work into something cringey (so I am told). Is your interview published somewhere (e.g. Fortean Times?). It would be interesting to read it. Again, in trying to do things the traditional way, I am avoiding too much googling even of the authors, so I don't know if they are still with us or what they are up to now.

Did the suit against DB by the other co-authors actually get anywhere?

 

[Themis]

I think this documentary first brought it to attention in UK

Ah yes! That's mentioned in the preface to my edition, which is one of the later ones. Thanks for sharing that - I'll most certainly be watching it!

 

[gordonrutter]

How interesting. I got the sense from the biographical blurbs that he was quite a serious person, so it's a bit strange he didn't go after DB for making his work into something cringey (so I am told). Is your interview published somewhere (e.g. Fortean Times?). It would be interesting to read it. Again, in trying to do things the traditional way, I am avoiding too much googling even of the authors, so I don't know if they are still with us or what they are up to now.

Did the suit against DB by the other co-authors actually get anywhere?

Interview in Dr Who Magazine, there is a Fortean version which I will publish at some time.

You can’t sue someone for writing shit! If the material is true history then you can’t copyright that.

The case went to court and Baigent and Leigh lost.

Baigent and Leigh are both dead, Henry is still alive, now living just outside Rennes le Chateau. Aged 91 according to Google.

 

[Themis]

I did an "In the footsteps of the Cathars", walking holiday back in 2002, started at Monségur where the last of the Cathars were besieged, wound though the Gorge de Galamus, which isn't actually Cathar, but has a weird 7th Century Hermitage carved into the sheer walls of the gorge, through Rennes Le Chateau, the church is very strange and the village had acquired a books shop selling all sorts of earth mysteries and paranormal books. Incidently we went through the village of Bugarach and skirted the mountain the Pech de Bugarach, which a few years later in the run-up to 2012 acquired a small community of people who thought the world was ending and the aliens from the base inside the mountain would carry them away in their spaceships. Also stopped off at the Château de Puivert, another Cathar stronghold, which was used as a setting "The Ninth Gate" film featuring Johnny Depp took place. Chose this holiday after reading Holy Blood, Holy Grail back in the 80's. The Languedoc is a good area for the Fortean traveller, there's plenty of interesting stuff beyond Rennes le Chateau.

BTW: a lot of "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" is bobbins, but it's still quite an interesting entry in the alternative history genre. The Da Vinci Code, is a great unintentional parody of the conspiracy thriller.

That does sound pretty spectacular! I mean, a walking holiday in the south of France is never going to go amiss, but throw in a hermitage in a gorge and a paranormal book shop... count me in! Seriously though, I feel awful saying it but I honestly had never even heard of the Cathars before I started to read this book and I do consider myself to be more up on European heresies than most. Erm. Anyway, if what they say about them is even partly true, they sound fascinating in themselves.

 

[EnolaGaia]

... So I will certainly look out for "The Sion Revelation". Was it published before HBAHG? Or after? ...

Long afterward ... It was first published in 2006.

 

[Themis]

Ac

Interview in Dr Who Magazine, there is a Fortean version which I will publish at some time.

You can’t sue someone for writing shit! If the material is true history then you can’t copyright that.

The case went to court and Baigent and Leigh lost.

Baigent and Leigh are both dead, Henry is still alive, now living just outside Rennes le Chateau. Aged 91 according to Google.

Actually that might be the answer - maybe Henry L wasn't going to sue because of exactly that! You can't "own" facts if facts are facts!

 

[Themis]

Yes, it's on the she

I envy you!



I remember being gobsmacked (at eleven, I knew everything and was the fount of all wisdom ) when Chronicle broadcast the first program. I'd seen the series as a sane and exciting way in to history and archaeology and I was already making summaries of the episodes as part of preparing for a degree in archaeology.

Edit to add: I have given away many many copies of Eco's Foucault's Pendulum. Quite often to people who had just enjoyed one of many discussion on this subject!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foucault's_Pendulum

Despite my almost total scepticism, irritation and contempt for some of the twists and turns of reasoning in this area it remains one of my favourite topics! After all, I would be negative about it, I'm a Catholic. Some people would say I would be enthusiastic about it being an Old Catholic.

I would reply that they are talking bobbins

Ah ha! Foucault's Pendulum is indeed on my shelf, awaiting my (long delayed) attention. One of these days! But maybe I'll read through some fo these other weird bits of pseudo-history first before indulging my lurve of Umberto. He's such a towering genius... she says, swooningly. But yes, this whole area is proving a very pleasant distraction from actual work!