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The "Horror Film Gene"

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sherbetbizarre said:
Apart from the police and media "dubbing" him the Joker, he hasn't stated this was his intention.

No, apparently, he just laughs hysterically at questions and "snorts chuckles through his noise". The question is: "How articulate do you expect a demented comicbook/horror film fan to be?"

This also means he didn't say: "I blame it all on the pernicious influence of horror movies and The Dark Knight in particular." The guy obviously thinks he is the Joker/Heath Ledger/Heath Ledger as the Joker (choose one)...
 
It's almost as if you're willing there to be a link. Which I find kind of creepy... :shock:
 
sherbetbizarre said:
It's almost as if you're willing there to be a link. Which I find kind of creepy... :shock:

What I find creepy is that the film The Dark Knight was made in the first place and that it was so popular. As horrible as this story is, I feel it vindicates my opinion of that film, which you will find in my first posts.
 
I'm obviously not counting his oh-so-intellectually-challenging comicbook adaptations, which he didn't "write" himself, of course and only directs for the money, even though they're every bit as gruesome as his more "personal" stuff.

No? So how about millionaire businessman de la Guardia and his nephew in Cronos?

During the interrogation, the man whose face was painted white with black around his eyes -- making some think of the Joker character in Batman...

Or of Eric Draven in The Crow, or Edward Sissorhands, or Morpheus from The Sandman, or Gerard Way from My Chemical Romance, or Robert Smith from The Cure, or whoever else is your Panda-eyed gothic scapegoat du jour. There's a lot of people and characters with make-up like that. From what I can tell, there has been no actual link made between this guy and the Dark Knight; the press have just latched onto the Joker because he's convenient.
 
ZVZNo? said:
So how about millionaire businessman de la Guardia and his nephew in Cronos?

Cronos had no pretense at realism and didn't mention Fascists, for once. It was just a horrible, meaningless sci-fi story where nobody survives, everybody dies and lots of gore is on display.

Or of Eric Draven in The Crow, or Edward Sissorhands, or Morpheus from The Sandman, or Gerard Way from My Chemical Romance, or Robert Smith from The Cure, or whoever else is your Panda-eyed gothic scapegoat du jour. There's a lot of people and characters with make-up like that. From what I can tell, there has been no actual link made between this guy and the Dark Knight; the press have just latched onto the Joker because he's convenient.

I wouldn't have posted this story if 6,000 newpapers worldwide hadn't made the link with The Dark Knight and the Joker before I did. The crimes were also committed on Keith Ledger's death's anniversary plus one day.
 
IIRC, didn't some people try to link the Columbine shootings to the Matrix, Trenchcoat Mafia and all that...

I can also think of at least one machete attack in the UK on a nursey school and a multiple shooting at an infants school in Scotland, both by adults who as far a I remember weren't supposed to have been influenced by particular movies.

The problem is that the mindset of someone who sets off on a a spree killing is (at least I hope it is) so outside the experience of most people, as to defy easy explanation. Blaming a prominent film, or book (remember Mark Chapman and Catcher in the Rye) or whatever, is just an attempt to make comprehensible to the population at large a psychopathology that has been years in developing, with numerous factors influencing its development.

Its not clear whether, this man does identify with the Joker, or whether that's just media speculation, there's plently of other evil clown images around in literature and the movies. Who knows, the makeup could just be disguise, because he thought "kids love clowns" and that the staff would think he was an entertainer and let him in...
 
Timble2 said:
Its not clear whether, this man does identify with the Joker, or whether that's just media speculation, there's plently of other evil clown images around in literature and the movies. Who knows, the makeup could just be disguise, because he thought "kids love clowns" and that the staff would think he was an entertainer and let him in...

To repeat myself endlessly in the face of one who negates everything I say, I wouldn't even have posted this story if 6,000 newspapers hadn't made the link between the killer - madeup as Heath Ledger in The Dark Knight and acting on the anniversary of Heath Ledger's death - and the movie. Negating that link is a bold gambit, considering that other people are perfectly comfortable accepting that link while still managing to negate that a film like The Dark Knight may have a more deleterious influence than, say, The Sound of Music.

I understand that in your static philosophy, those babies died because "kids love clowns".
 
Just suggesting some alternatives, and because 6,000 papers copy each others' stories, it doesn't mean it was right in the first place...it's google the story for easy answer...

Repeating a possibly false premise doesn't make it right.
 
Cronos had no pretense at realism and didn't mention Fascists, for once. It was just a horrible, meaningless sci-fi story where nobody survives, everybody dies and lots of gore is on display.

Really? I'm not sure you and I are watching the same film.
 
baracine said:
Timble2 said:
Its not clear whether, this man does identify with the Joker, or whether that's just media speculation, there's plently of other evil clown images around in literature and the movies. Who knows, the makeup could just be disguise, because he thought "kids love clowns" and that the staff would think he was an entertainer and let him in...

To repeat myself endlessly in the face of one who negates everything I say, I wouldn't even have posted this story if 6,000 newspapers hadn't made the link between the killer - madeup as Heath Ledger in The Dark Knight and acting on the anniversary of Heath Ledger's death - and the movie. Negating that link is a bold gambit, considering that other people are perfectly comfortable accepting that link while still managing to negate that a film like The Dark Knight may have a more deleterious influence than, say, The Sound of Music.

I understand that in your static philosophy, those babies died because "kids love clowns".

You really are coming across as a pompous arsehole, not everywhere is reporting that he emulated the joker at all, in fact if you read the BBC news website it make nothing of these "allegations", and countless other websites report the same.

If he was emulating the joker, the first step would be to actually look and act like him, this has not been reported as accurate by anyone at all, all that has been reported is that he wore black eye make up and had red hair, that sounds more like a Goth or an Emo to me, but it is far more exciting to say that the Dark Knight is directly responsible for this act of madness, because A) it sells more papers and B) pompous arseholes will agree with it and condemn every type of violent film.
 
painy2 said:
You really are coming across as a pompous arsehole... (...) pompous arsehole... (...)

Pompous arseholes like myself don't go around stabbing babies - thankfully: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... death.html

As police attempted to question Kim De Gelder, 20, who witnesses said had dressed as the Batman character the Joker during the attack, at least 6,000 people processed through Dendermonde carrying white flowers, ribbons and balloons, making their way to the scene of an attack that has stunned the country.

Investigators were last night examining whether the attack was timed to mark the first anniversary of the death of Heath Ledger, the actor who played the Joker in the film Batman, The Dark Knight.

The Australian actor died of a drug overdose on Jan 22, 2008, a year and a day before the suspect is accused of carrying out the attack after painting his face white, blackening his eyes and either colouring his hair red or wearing a red wig.

Mr De Gelder has been variously described by former workmates as a "film freak" and "movie addict".

It's safe to say at this point that the only medias that don't establish a link between the murders and the film are the ones that are not doing their job:

http://news.google.ca/news?ned=us&hl=en ... onde+joker

Wikipedia entry (feel free to correct according to your own privileged information): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendermonde_nursery_attack

Who is the pompous arsehole who said "Denial is not just a river in Egypt"?
 
Always remember that wiki can be edited by any idiot with an internet connection...

Of course the police will be considering any connection with the film, along with lots of other possibilities. However, it seems that Baracine has already decided that there is an irrefutable connection.

And if the film did set him off, we can't run the world on the principle that one individual out of millions might go on murder spree because of something they've seen. If that was the case we'd ban most literature, movies, religious books, newa atories and medical textbooks, all of which have set off some deluded individual at sometime...

And we'd have to ban Mondays....
 
Timble2 said:
Always remember that wiki can be edited by any idiot with an internet connection...

...which is why I invited any poster who feels he knows better to correct the entry.

Of course the police will be considering any connection with the film, along with lots of other possibilities. However, it seems that Baracine has already decided that there is an irrefutable connection.

This is the order of causality. The witnesses reported it to the police and the police reported it to the medias.

And if the film did set him off, we can't run the world on the principle that one individual out of millions might go on murder spree because of something they've seen. If that was the case we'd ban most literature, movies, religious books, newa atories and medical textbooks, all of which have set off some deluded individual at sometime...

And we'd have to ban Mondays....

So, you're back to the alternative gambit I mentioned ("Sure, the film caused him to go mad but that doesn't mean you should condemn violent films"). Can you understand, though, that when, both as a professional alarmist and pompous arsehole, I go out of my way to affirm that a film like The Dark Knight is an egregious piece of sadistic trash that can potentially curdle milk in the teet and I see this kind of thing happening, that I feel somewhat confirmed in my original opinion?

Reference: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468569/usercomments-2940
 
I don't think it's impossible that this guy was trying to emulate the joker, but I don't think that that means anything that deep - as gnc (i think) said, it's an easy way to overlook the fact that there were probably more profound disturbing influences on this guy than a hit movie.
 
H_James said:
I don't think it's impossible that this guy was trying to emulate the joker, but I don't think that that means anything that deep - as gnc (i think) said, it's an easy way to overlook the fact that there were probably more profound disturbing influences on this guy than a hit movie.

I rest my case. :headbutt: (Sorry, I couldn't find the emoticon who shoots himself in the head.)
 
Meanwhile, back in Reality Land...

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/01/26/ ... 232982621/

Daycare attacker said obsessed with Ledger
Published: Jan. 26, 2009 at 10:10 AM

DENDERMONDE, Belgium, Jan. 26 (UPI) -- The suspect in a Belgian daycare center knife attack had dressed as The Joker before the assault to mark the death of actor Heath Ledger, sources say.

Citing unnamed police sources, The Daily Telegraph reported Monday Kim De Gelder, 20, painted his face white, applied black eyeliner and either dyed his hair or was wearing a wig -- replicating the make-up Ledger wore in the Batman movie "The Dark Knight" -- when he allegedly killed two babies and a daycare worker last week in Dendermonde, Belgium.

The sources said the attack may have been inspired by the one-year anniversary of Ledger's accidental drug overdose death in New York. The newspaper said De Gelder has refused to talk to police interrogators since his arrest and is being fed intravenously after staging a hunger strike.

When De Gelder was arrested, he was reportedly holding the addresses of three other day cares, and police said they believe he was planning more attacks because he was allegedly armed with three knives, an ax and a replica pistol, the Telegraph said.

Neighbors described the suspect as a quiet loner who was raised by strict parents, and he was described by workmates as a "film freak."

© 2009 United Press International, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
 
Don't you just love those unamed police sources...it adds nothing to the speculation that's already going on, same old story rehashed. You won't get anything reliable until it goes to trial.
 
Wow, this thread is really something. Baracine is normal and those who enjoy horror movies are dangerous psychotics!

baracine said:
Meanwhile, back in Reality Land...

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/01/26/ ... 232982621/

Daycare attacker said obsessed with Ledger
Published: Jan. 26, 2009 at 10:10 AM

DENDERMONDE, Belgium, Jan. 26 (UPI) -- The suspect in a Belgian daycare center knife attack had dressed as The Joker before the assault to mark the death of actor Heath Ledger, sources say.

Citing unnamed police sources, The Daily Telegraph reported Monday Kim De Gelder, 20, painted his face white, applied black eyeliner and either dyed his hair or was wearing a wig -- replicating the make-up Ledger wore in the Batman movie "The Dark Knight" -- when he allegedly killed two babies and a daycare worker last week in Dendermonde, Belgium.

The sources said the attack may have been inspired by the one-year anniversary of Ledger's accidental drug overdose death in New York. The newspaper said De Gelder has refused to talk to police interrogators since his arrest and is being fed intravenously after staging a hunger strike.

When De Gelder was arrested, he was reportedly holding the addresses of three other day cares, and police said they believe he was planning more attacks because he was allegedly armed with three knives, an ax and a replica pistol, the Telegraph said.

Neighbors described the suspect as a quiet loner who was raised by strict parents, and he was described by workmates as a "film freak."

© 2009 United Press International, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Are you suggesting that he was a loony because he watched the movie, and that he would never have done this if he hadn't seen the film?

This guy had serious issues. If he was capable of doing something like this he would have done it whether he watched Dark Knight or not.

I don't recall any scene in TDK where the Joker attacks babies with a knife.

"Citing unnamed police sources"

Pro-tip: 9/10 this means 'we made some shit up to fill pages'.

Timble2 said:
IIRC, didn't some people try to link the Columbine shootings to the Matrix, Trenchcoat Mafia and all that...

There's always a convenient scapegoat. The Virginia Tech incident was blamed on the PC game 'Counter-Strike', despite the fact that his room-mate had never seen him play a game, and er, he didn't even own a computer or games console.

But it's always easier to blame this stuff on movies, games and music, rather than trying to find any real causes. Sometimes people are just goddamn crazy.
 
I guess the guy didn't have the movie's budget to commit his crime. His getaway vehicle was a bicycle after all.

Funny bit i see green hair dye on ebay for £3.95 and red lipstick for £1.85 Not exactly that difficult to get it right. An an obsessive.nut would at least have bothered to get his hair the right colour!

that and if there hadn't just been a batman/joker film out, i can;t help thinking this guy would be copping the blame:

manson.jpg


who come to think of it matches the description a lot better. failing that, there's always some gothic rock/death metal band to blame :(
 
interestingly, the Times Online version of the story has the killer having ginger hair, not a clown red as other versions imply.

BBC News also reports now that he's linked to the early murder of an old woman...
 
hokum6 said:
There's always a convenient scapegoat. The Virginia Tech incident was blamed on the PC game 'Counter-Strike', despite the fact that his room-mate had never seen him play a game, and er, he didn't even own a computer or games console.
I remember reading about a 'Teenage Vampire Killer' one time - this teenager had committed the horrible murder of an OAP and drunk her blood. Newspapers were keen to point out that he had owned a copy of Bizarre magazine, and Bram Stoker's Dracula.

Shameful as it is for me to admit to, but I actually own a copy of Bizarre magazine (just one!). And Dracula. And Frankenstein. But I just don't have that magic extra which makes me want to mutilate old ladies - this killer clearly did, and whatever gothic fiction he was into would be a red herring if you were trying to figure out his motivations.
 
Pity his surname is De Gelder then!

And his whole name is an anagram of Kidder Gel Me... well the joker was a bit of a kidder wasn't he? or alternatively, Riddle Keg Me... so perhaps he was really obsessed with another batman villain? :?
 
BlackRiverFalls said:
Pity his surname is De Gelder then!

And his whole name is an anagram of Kidder Gel Me... well the joker was a bit of a kidder wasn't he? or alternatively, Riddle Keg Me... so perhaps he was really obsessed with another batman villain? :?

The point here is that Gelder believed he had a "special link" to Ledger.
 
To hijack the thread a second... De Gelder was originally from a town called Sint Niklaas. Dear old Saint Nick was originally famous for putting together again three butchered children.

Famous Fortean Loren Coleman agrees with Baracine. He also mentions (coins?) a 'curse of the Dark Knight' (even Mothman gets a look in!).

There is little denying now that the Dendermonde Joker is a Heath Ledger/Joker copycat from the film The Dark Knight.

The 20-year-old accused daycare baby killer Kim de Gelder is a big fan of movies, but now sits on suicide watch. Concurrently, The Dark Knight re-opens around the world, beginning on Friday, January 23, 2009, on giant IMAX screens everywhere.

De Gelder has been variously described by former workmates as a "film freak" and "movie addict."

Joker copycats did show up before de Gelder, but the couple of incidents picked up by the media in 2008 were actually minor in nature.

Talk of a Dark Knight curse has certainly been in the air from the beginning. The Dark Knight is dedicated to both the 28-year-old Heath Ledger, who died of an accidental overdose last January 22, 2008, and Conway Wickliffe, 41, a stunt supervisor who died in a freak accident in London while setting up a car crash. Other weird deaths have been associated with the film.

On September 1, 2008, in Johannesburg, Morné Harmse, an 18-year-old pupil in his high school in South Africa allegedly killed a fellow student with a sword and then hacked up three others. Harmse wore a clown mask and carried other masks supposedly inspired by the group Slipknot. The key to our examination here is that the killer also spoke in a voice to mimic the Joker in The Dark Knight.

Thus, the level of violence of the Dendermonde Joker is acknowledged as way above all previous examples for individuals more closely mirroring The Dark Knight's Joker.

The two specific costumed Joker arrests before the Belgium stabbing attacks mostly went unnoticed because they were so mild by comparison.

In July 2008, Boing Boing told of a Joker copycat who had been arrested.



Detective Mike Mohney stated at the time that 20-year-old Spencer Taylor (above) of Three Rivers, Michigan, had been booked for investigation of larceny and malicious destruction of property. Mohney says officers who were dispatched on that early Sunday morning of July 27, 2008, to the theater to find employees restraining a man wearing a purple suit, a green wig and face paint in the style of Batman's nemesis in The Dark Knight.

On August 14, 2008, the local media in Michigan followed up by declaring that Taylor had been sentenced.

Taylor pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of malicious destruction of property. Police from Three Rivers, Centreville, Michigan, said that Taylor wore a purple suit, green wig and face paint like the Joker when he was arrested for attempting to steal the big Batman movie poster.

Spencer Taylor was sentenced to one day in jail, 16 hours of community service and fined $685. Other charges were dropped when Spencer Taylor agreed to do a plea deal.

The Joker copycat incident in Arizona around Halloween was a bit more dangerous.

A 16-year-old Palo Verde High School student was rushed to the hospital Friday, October 31, 2008 (Halloween) for serious but not life-threatening injuries after what authorities described as an accidental stabbing by a classmate.

The injuries occurred during lunch while the student, a junior, horsed around with a freshman friend, said Ross Sheard, high school chief academic officer for the Tucson Unified School District. The 15-year-old jumped on the older student's back, causing two puncture-type wounds to the older boy, Sheard said.

Classmates said that the student who accidentally stabbed his friend was dressed up like the Joker from the Batman movie The Dark Knight, and that dressing that way was not uncommon for him. He often goes by the nickname "Joker."

"He dresses up like him a lot. He does his makeup like him a lot, and that's what he goes by," said sophomore Sara Everett, 15.

"It was not a fight," he said. "It wasn't kids being knock-down, going after each other. It was horseplay that got out of control."

Afterward, the students apparently made their way to the office and asked for help, he said. About an hour and a half later, officials tracked down the knife that was used in the incident, Sheard said.

The 15-year-old had a total of three knives in his pocket — two kitchen knives and a hobby knife — and is facing charges of carrying the concealed knives, but not aggravated assault, said Sgt. Mark Robinson, a Tucson Police Department spokesman.

Sheard said it was too early to say what might happen to the 15-year-old student, but the district has a zero-tolerance policy against weapons on campus.

Police questioned the uninjured student at Palo Verde, 1302 S. Avenida Vega, near East 22nd Street and South Kolb Road.

"We're not sure how serious the injury is," Sheard said. "There was bleeding. That was the part that had everybody very concerned."

Robinson said later that the student was undergoing surgery at a local hospital.

Many students were in costume on Halloween, he said, which caused some added confusion on campus.

Have there been other copycat incidents since The Dark Knight appeared?

We've got a real life superheroes thread. How about real life supervillains?
 
baracine said:
H_James said:
I don't think it's impossible that this guy was trying to emulate the joker, but I don't think that that means anything that deep - as gnc (i think) said, it's an easy way to overlook the fact that there were probably more profound disturbing influences on this guy than a hit movie.

I rest my case. :headbutt: (Sorry, I couldn't find the emoticon who shoots himself in the head.)
Sorry, what was it I said? :?
 
baracine said:
Ahem... This was one of the first links I provided.

It wasn't, this blog entry is dated 26 January, the link you published was for 24 January...
 
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