The Miracles of Jesus Christ

[ted_bloody_maul]

don't know if this should be in new science, religion or fortean news stories. :?

anyway...

JESUS MAY HAVE WALKED ON FROZEN WATER, SCIENTISTS CLAIM


By Rachel Williams, PA, in New York
Jesus may not have walked on water as the Bible says but on a unique type of floating ice, according to research by scientists in America.
They believe that an isolated patch of such ice would have been hard to distinguish from unfrozen water around it in the Sea of Galilee, so that from a distance someone might appear to be walking on the water's surface.
``Springs ice'' is caused by a rare combination of water and atmospheric conditions, Oceanography Professor Doron Nof, of Florida State University, said.
He thinks it could have formed on the cold freshwater surface of what is now known as Lake Kinneret, in northern Israel, when already chilly temperatures briefly plummeted during one of two protracted cold periods between 2,500 and 1,500 years ago.
The water which did not freeze would have come from salty springs along the lake's western shore in Tabgha, an area where many archaeological findings related to Jesus have been documented.
Salt water freezes at a lower temperature than freshwater.
Prof Nof and his team came up with the theory after studying records of water temperatures in the Mediterranean Sea thousands of years ago, worked out using samples of shells and other animal remains from the bottom.
They calculated the odds of the conditions for springs ice as roughly once in 1,000 years, but said that during Jesus's life the chance would have been more like once in 30 to 160 years.
``As natural scientists, we simply explain that unique freezing processes probably happened in that region only a handful of times during the last 12,000 years,'' Prof Nof said.
``We leave to others the question of whether or not our research explains the Biblical account.'' The story of Jesus walking on water is recorded in the New Testament books of Matthew, Mark and John.
His disciples were said to be out on the Galilee at night when a storm blew up.
Jesus, who they thought was a ghost, walked to them and got in their boat, after which the storm calmed.
Prof Nof, who also made the headlines in 1992 when he offered a scientific explanation for Moses's parting of the Red Sea, said he was already getting hate email inspired by his latest theory roughly every three minutes.
One message called him ``the most stupid person on the planet'' and hoped that he ``go to hell where you belong''.
The research appears in the Journal of Paleolimnology, a scientific publication that addresses the reconstruction of lake history.

 

[GNC]

From Breaking News:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 881108.stm

Did Jesus walk on water - or ice?

Jesus may not have walked on water as the Bible claims but rather skated on ice formed through a freak cold spell, a scientific study has suggested.
Rare atmospheric and water conditions could have caused ice to form on the freshwater Sea of Galilee.

The research shows a period of cooler weather swept what is now northern Israel from 1,500 to 2,600 years ago.

Sub-zero temperatures could have caused the formation of ice thick enough to support the weight of a man.

"Springs ice"

The story of Jesus walking on water is recorded in three of the four Gospels, but Professor Doron Nof, an oceanographer from Florida State University insists his research points to a scientific rather than miraculous explanation.

"If you ask me if I believe someone walked on water, no, I don't," Prof Nof told Reuters. "I believe something natural was there that explains it."

The research involved a study of the surface temperatures of the Sea of Galilee along with air temperature and wind records.

Partially submerged in water, the ice patches, known as "springs ice", may not have been noticed by observers standing at a distance.

"Because the size of the springs ice, a person standing or walking on it would appear to a distant observer to be 'walking on water'," Prof Nof wrote in the report's conclusion.

"Our springs ice calculation may or may not be related to the origin of the account of Christ walking on water," he concluded.

"It is hoped, however, that archaeologists, religious scholars, anthropologists and believers will examine such implications in detail."

Clutching a straws here. And how could the disciples be sailing in a storm if the sea was frozen? Presuming it happened at all.

Besides, Lenny Henry walked on water in the Smith's Square Crisps ad, and he didn't use ice to do it.

 

[Anonymous]

So you are saying Lenny Henry is the Son Of God?

Wouldn't surprise me! He's not funny anymore is he? :shock:

All that miracle stuff is a sign of the times. If that there God's Son was alive today (What? He's deaded? Again?) he'd (sorry, He'd) be doing qualility documentaries for 'Channel 4' or 'FIVE'. Now THAT would be a miracle!

 

[GNC]

So you are saying Lenny Henry is the Son Of God?

That's for others to say...

Wouldn't surprise me! He's not funny anymore is he? :shock:

Nothing beats his hilarious loaves and fishes routine.

 

[Anonymous]

Nothing beats his hilarious loaves and fishes routine.

Yeah, but he must have done it 5,000 times!

 

[rjmrjmrjm]

I'm sure I read this theory about five years ago at least. It's silly season, no REAL news so lets just drag up some half-baked tosh* and re-hash that for a bit.

*not necessarily my feelings

 

[ghostdog19]

Hasn't this already been discussed in a thread where the chat was mostly dominated by whether Jesus was Paul Daniels or not?

 

[QuaziWashboard]

Hasn't this already been discussed in a thread where the chat was mostly dominated by whether Jesus was Paul Daniels or not?

Yep. That was my fault I'm afraid. 8)
Just to recap...the theory was that Jesus had learned the arts of sleight of hand and conjuring at the hands of travelling street magicians in Egypt (where Jesus apparently spent quite a lot of his formative years) called Gali Gali men.
As we all know, practicaly all the well known miracles can be re-created by illusionists and made to look real, because modern day magicians do them all the time.
Even coming back from the dead. (Voodoo priests will actualy poison someone with something called tetrodotoxin. This drug puts a person into a coma that resembles death. The victim retains full awareness as he/she is taken to the hospital, then perhaps to the morgue and finally buried in a grave. The voodoo priest or 'bokor' then raises the victim and administers a hallucinogenic concoction, called the "zombi's cucumber," that revives the victim. Once the victim has been revived, he/she has no power of speech, their past human personality is entirely absent, and the memory is gone, probably because of the strong hallucinogens used in this Voodoo practice, which are probably administered again and again to keep the victim in this state. The victim is then called a 'zombie' and used as a slave by the voodoo priest.)
So why couldn't the original miracals have been done in a similar way to how a modern magician would do them? We know conjurers and magicians existed at the time with knowledge that could make 'miracles' look real.
The interesting thing about the walking on water miracle is that it was only witnessed by those that Jesus chose to surround himself with, his desciples. If Jesus was indeed a conjurer rather than the actual earthly embodiment of God, he would need helpers, just as any stage magician does. If this was the case, then the obvious suspects for being Jesus's 'stage hands' would have to be his desciples. So it's not going beyond the relms of possibility to postulate that the walking on water miracle might well have been a pure fabrication in order to promote Jesus.

Further discussion on this angle can be found in:
Was Jesus An Illusionist / Magician?
https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/was-jesus-an-illusionist-magician.67739/

 

[colpepper1]

Like everyone else I can't really know whether the miracles were, er, miraculous. Even so, the old lines about conjouring presupposes the punters watching him were gullible just because it happened a couple of millenia ago. I rather doubt that.
They were more familiar with death in close up and a lot closer to the natural world than most people today. Even if events like the wedding feast at Cana, the loaves and fishes and the raising of Lazarus happened exactly as reported in the bible, it wouldn't necessarily point to Jesus being the messiah, just an extremely potent psychic with control of apports, telekinesis, etc - though I wouldn't argue with his conclusions.

Of course the church's definition of a miracle is anything that creates faith and on that level miracles they undoubtedly were. Faith based exclusively on two thousand year old eye witness accounts doesn't rest easily with a modern reader but that doesn't mean they can only be explained away as tricks.

 

[hokum6]

There is a simpler explanation.

It was all made up. The 'miracles' never happened, whether they were tricks or otherwise.

Mystery solved.

 

[Analogue Boy]

On the contrary. the mystery deepens.

ATTIS - Phrygia: Born of the virgin Nana on December 25. He was both the Father and the Divine Son. He was a savior crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind. He was buried but on the third day the priests found the tomb empty -- He had arisen from the dead (on March 25th). He followers were baptized in blood, thereby washing away their sins -- after which they declared themselves "born again." His followers ate a sacred meal of bread, which they believed became the body of the savoir.



BUDDIAH – INDIA: Born of the Virgin Maya on December 25th. He was announced by a star and attended by wise men presenting costly gifts. At birth angles sing heavenly songs. He taught in temple at age 12. Tempted by Mara, the Evil One (Satan), while fasting. He was baptized in water with the Spirit of God present. Buddiah healed the sick and fed 500 from a small basket of cakes and even walked on water. He came to fulfill the law and preached the establishment of a kingdom of righteousness and obliged followers to poverty and to renounce the world. He transfigured on a mount. Died (on a cross, in some traditions), buried but arose again after tomb opened by supernatural powers. Ascended into heaven (Nirvana). Will return in later days to judge the dead. Buddiah was called: "Good Shepherd," "Carpenter," "Alpha and Omega," "Sin Bearer," "Master," "Light of the World," "Redeemer," etc.



DIONYSUS - GREECE: Born of a Virgin on December 25th, placed in a manger. He was a traveling teacher who performed many miracles. Turned water into wine. Followers ate sacred meal that became the body of the god. He rose from the dead March 25th. Identified with the ram and lamb's and was called "King of Kings," "Only Begotten Son," "Savior," "Redeemer," "Sin bearer," "Anointed One," the "Alpha and Omega."



HERACLES – GREECE: Born at the winter equinox of a virgin who refrained from sex with her until her god-begotten child was born and was sacrificed at the spring equinox. He too, was called "Savior," "Only begotten," "Prince of Peace," "Son of Righteousness."



KRISHNA - INDIA: Krishna was born while his foster-father Nanda was in the city to pay his tax to the king. His nativity heralded by a star, Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki in a cave, which at the time of his birth was miraculously illuminated. The cow-herds adored his birth. King Kansa sought the life of the Indian Christ by ordering the massacre of all male children born during the same night at He. Krishna traveled widely, performing miracles -- raising the dead, healing lepers, the deaf and the blind. The crucified Krishna is pictured on the cross with arms extended. Pierced by an arrow while hanging on the cross, Krishna died, but descended into Hell from which He rose again on the third day and ascended into Heaven. (The Gospel of Nicodemus tell of Jesus' descent into Hell.) He will return on the last day to judge the quick and the dead. Krishna is the second person of the Hindu trinity.



OSIRIS – EGYPT: He came to fulfill the law. Called "KRST," the "Anointed One." Born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25th in a cave / manger, with his birth announced by a star and attended by three wise men. Earthly father named "Seb" (translates to "Joseph.") At age 12 he was a child teacher in the Temple and at 30 he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years. Osiris was baptized in the river Iarutana -- the river Jordan -- by "Anup the Baptizer," who was beheaded. (Anup translates to John.) He performed miracles, exorcised demons, raised El-Osiris from the dead. Walked on water and was betrayed by Typhon, crucified between two thieves on the 17th day of the month of Athyr. Buried in a tomb from which he arose on the third day (19th Athyr) and was resurrected. His suffering, death, and resurrection celebrated each year by His disciples on the Vernal Equinox -- Easter. Called "The Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "god's Anointed Son,' the "Son of Man," the "Word made Flesh," the "word of truth." Expected to reign a thousand years.

Note in the last example the raising of the dead El-Osiris (Lazarus?)

http://www.jdstone.org/cr/files/mithras ... anity.html

 

[rynner2]

On the contrary. the mystery deepens.

Well, not really.

Applying ancient myths to later parallels (although hugely interesting) does not get us much further as an explanation of the miracles (the topic of this thread), as it is really a debunking of them. And a debunking is the opposite of deepening a mystery.

I think...! :?

 

[Analogue Boy]

OK. How about if the Christian myth stems from a previous religious myth that involved worship of the sun? Ignoring the literalism of the story of Christ, you have the symbolic image of the setting of the fiery Sun walking on water in the evening and arising anew the next morning, bringing light to the world.

 

[GNC]

Yeah, but it was a storm Christ was walking through, so he'd be stomping over choppy waters and the sun wouldn't be out. Plus it depends on where you're standing whether you see the dawn over the sea. I think it's a stretch to explain this miracle as sun worship.

Having said that, I'd welcome any other explanations, even if it was only where the originator got the idea from.

 

[Analogue Boy]

Yeah, but it was a storm Christ was walking through, so he'd be stomping over choppy waters and the sun wouldn't be out. Plus it depends on where you're standing whether you see the dawn over the sea. I think it's a stretch to explain this miracle as sun worship.

Having said that, I'd welcome any other explanations, even if it was only where the originator got the idea from.

I think you're missing the point of my earlier posts. For the sake of preserving the popular and (at the time) well-known plot line of Messiahs and deities, there HAD to be a story of Jesus walking on water because it is part of the symbology that Christianity borrows heavily from without understanding the context.
It is said that Osiris and Horus both performed the miracle. Maybe the reason for this comes down to Sun worship and the Messiah must be able to walk the same path as the sun..even as it sets across the water.

For example, the sun or the sun-god Atum is described in the Ritual as going over the surface of the lake of Mati, in Abydos, the place of rebirth, or of sunrise. That which is done mythically by the god is performed by the manes on the eschatological plane, and as he is in the human likeness, it follows that he must walk the water in the sun-god's track. He says, "the great God who is there is Ra himself. I walk on his road; I know the surface of the lake of Mati. The water of Mati is the road by which Atum-Ra goes to traverse the field of divine harvest" (Rit., 17). In the first phase the sun (or solar god) traverses the celestial water at dawn. In the eschatological continuation the human soul in Amenta does the same because assimilated to the character of the god. It is but a mode of representing phenomena in the two worlds of the double earth, the imagery of upper earth being repeated in spirit-world. But if we substitute a human being for the solar god or the manes in Amenta, and make him walk the water in our world on the surface of the sea or lake of Galilee, instead of the lake of Mati in Amenta, the water-walking can only be done by miracle. Such is the genesis of the Biblical miracles in both the Old Testament and the New. This we are now able to prove twice over by means of the original matter and mode of the mythos in the Egyptian eschatology that was humanized or literalised in legends and at last converted into Christian history.

 

[ghostdog19]

For the sake of preserving the popular and (at the time) well-known plot line of Messiahs and deities, there HAD to be a story of Jesus walking on water because it is part of the symbology that Christianity borrows heavily from without understanding the context.

Without understanding the context?

 

[Analogue Boy]

Because the Jesus GodMan tradition had to encapsulate the featureset of the religions and beliefs it was based on.

All the miracles were reportedly done before and most come from ancient egypt.
Even Pythagoras had a go.

Here's one...the fish thing - with the reason behind it.

Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy - 'The Jesus Mysteries' - "The Pythagoreans were renowned for their knowledge of mathematics and regarded 153 as a sacred number. It is used in a mathematical ratio which Archimedes calle 'the measure of the fish' to produce the mystical symbol of the Vesica Piscis or 'Sign of The Fish' - the intersection of two circles which yields a fish-like shape. ....Two circles , symbolic of spirit and matter, are brought together in a secret marriage. ...... The ratio of height to length of this shape is 153:265. It is a powerful mathematical tool, being the nearest whole number approximation of the square root of three and the controlling ratio of the equilateral triangle." Square root of three = 1.732050808. 265÷153=1.732026144.

John 21:11 - "Simon Peter went up and drew, the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken." There has to be a reason for giving such an odd number. Otherwise, like any fisherman boasting about his catch, it would have been a round 150 or even 200. This is a prime example of the hidden mysteries within the Bible.

 

[ghostdog19]

Because the Jesus GodMan tradition had to encapsulate the featureset of the religions and beliefs it was based on.

All the miracles were reportedly done before and most come from ancient egypt.
Even Pythagoras had a go.

Granted other deities have walked on water, the point however is, the miracle of water walking has its own metaphor and context. It doesn't have anything to do with these other 'traditions' bar the fact that he walks on water, so what does it have to do with misunderstanding their metaphors or their context when it has its own?

 

[Analogue Boy]

Because the Jesus GodMan tradition had to encapsulate the featureset of the religions and beliefs it was based on.

All the miracles were reportedly done before and most come from ancient egypt.
Even Pythagoras had a go.

Granted other deities have walked on water, the point however is, the miracle of water walking has its own metaphor and context. It doesn't have anything to do with these other 'traditions' bar the fact that he walks on water, so what does it have to do with misunderstanding their metaphors or their context when it has its own?

It is not my wish to bring anyone's faith in Mysteries of Jesus into question so I shall stop here.

 

[ghostdog19]

Because the Jesus GodMan tradition had to encapsulate the featureset of the religions and beliefs it was based on.

All the miracles were reportedly done before and most come from ancient egypt.
Even Pythagoras had a go.

Granted other deities have walked on water, the point however is, the miracle of water walking has its own metaphor and context. It doesn't have anything to do with these other 'traditions' bar the fact that he walks on water, so what does it have to do with misunderstanding their metaphors or their context when it has its own?

It is not my wish to bring anyone's faith in Mysteries of Jesus into question so I shall stop here.

What? Who's faith in Mysteries? I'm asking you what Jesus walking on water has to do with misunderstanding the metaphors or symbology as you put it, of other, older faiths or beliefs or whatever that have deities and the like walking on water?

 

[Analogue Boy]

What is the metaphor and context of Jesus walking on water?

 

[ghostdog19]

What is the metaphor and context of Jesus walking on water?

We'll start with you answering my question first. I have asked you twice now.

 

[colpepper1]

To come at things from a different direction it's feasible human beings are hard wired to concepts of divinity. Archetypes of God and a pantheon of higher (and lower) beings performing remarkable feats may, or may not have a fundamental heritage we can only guess at. Whatever the reality, suggesting they are conjouring tricks at the remove of two millenia can only be guesswork. The notion isolates huge themes, ignores the context and elevates Paul Daniels to equivalence with the instigation of some of the finest art, music and architecture ever known.
It's an opinion but one that sees the world through a particular lens. It may look clear but it distorts as much as any other.

 

[Analogue Boy]

Because the Jesus GodMan tradition had to encapsulate the featureset of the religions and beliefs it was based on.

All the miracles were reportedly done before and most come from ancient egypt.
Even Pythagoras had a go.

Granted other deities have walked on water, the point however is, the miracle of water walking has its own metaphor and context. It doesn't have anything to do with these other 'traditions' bar the fact that he walks on water, so what does it have to do with misunderstanding their metaphors or their context when it has its own?

There are probably many metaphors and various contexts to the story of Jesus walking on water.
As an alternative to the following of the path of the sun mentioned above, there is the more simple and practical theory that he simply found a sand bank. Also it is possible that it was meant as an inclusion as a simple story about the situation the early Christians found themselves amid the storm of the Romans. Also it could be read as an example of how great things are possible but only if you keep your eye on Jesus.
It could also be placed in the Christ mythos as a reference to Joshua and Moses.

Or it could be ice.

The pythagorean example displays a mathematical reason for the number to be included. That is the key to its importance.

This really shouldn't be that important a matter as the Catholic Church doesn't believe in the miracles anymore and have handed out leaflets saying you really shouldn't be looking at the Bible as a historical document...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 574768.ece

My point about borrowed context is that a story about Jesus walking across water had to be included regardless as it had been a feat reported of other messiahs and was expected as part of the myth. The big trick came later when it was announced that he was actually a real person.

 

[hedgewizard1]

We seem to be missing a salient point here. According to George Lamsa's notes in his New Testament translation, the word used in this context can be translated as "on" or "by." L. Sprague DeCamp also notes the difficulty of Biblical translation in his book The Great Monkey Trial. Given that it appears the translators of the King James Version were inclined to make translations that served their patron's purposes, an argument can be made that the translators went for the more spectacular version.

 

[QuaziWashboard]

Yeah, but it was a storm Christ was walking through, so he'd be stomping over choppy waters and the sun wouldn't be out. Plus it depends on where you're standing whether you see the dawn over the sea. I think it's a stretch to explain this miracle as sun worship.

Having said that, I'd welcome any other explanations, even if it was only where the originator got the idea from.

Just a thought, but maybe it'd be interesting to find out just how old the art of surfing is?

 

[GNC]

Yeah, but it was a storm Christ was walking through, so he'd be stomping over choppy waters and the sun wouldn't be out. Plus it depends on where you're standing whether you see the dawn over the sea. I think it's a stretch to explain this miracle as sun worship.

Having said that, I'd welcome any other explanations, even if it was only where the originator got the idea from.

Just a thought, but maybe it'd be interesting to find out just how old the art of surfing is?

It's from Hawaii, isn't it? The other side of the world, and I don't know if they were practicing it that early. Surfin' Christ sounds like a good band name, though.

 

[ghostdog19]

Wasn't it mentioned in Captain Cooks Journals?

 

[QuaziWashboard]

Yeah, but it was a storm Christ was walking through, so he'd be stomping over choppy waters and the sun wouldn't be out. Plus it depends on where you're standing whether you see the dawn over the sea. I think it's a stretch to explain this miracle as sun worship.

Having said that, I'd welcome any other explanations, even if it was only where the originator got the idea from.

Just a thought, but maybe it'd be interesting to find out just how old the art of surfing is?

It's from Hawaii, isn't it? The other side of the world, and I don't know if they were practicing it that early. Surfin' Christ sounds like a good band name, though.

After looking around for some info on this, there's very little available.
It would appear that the first time westerners witnessed surfing was indeed when Captain Cook landed in Hawaii in the late 1700s, but Malcom Gault Williams, the surfing historian and biographer, postulates that the Polynesians may have brought surfing with them when they colonised Hawaii around 300 AD and even mentions in his book 'LEGENDS' that it may go back as far as 2500 BC.
So it would cirtainly seem feasable that some form of surfing was around at the time, just in a completely different part of the world, but think about it for a moment, what is surfing? Balancing on a piece of floating material. Hardly rocket science. Surfing, or something like it could have occured anytime and anywhere where wood and bodies of water are to be found. Many ancient canoes were traditionaly steered by a 'standing' person, including a type of reed canoe used in Egypt as carvings in ancient Egyptian tombs depict. It is also known that a reed canoe (they are still traditionaly used in several parts of the world) eventualy soaks up so much water that it will sink to just below the water line but still remain bouyant enough to hold a man up, which is probably why they are traditionaly steered standing up, wet feet being preferable to wet feet and a wet backside.
Now where was it that Jesus was supposed to have spent most of his life while growing up? Ah yes...Egypt.
Again, like the 'Jesus was a street magician' theory, this is in no way proof of what happened but it's an interesting theory that explains how it could have happened.

And yes....'Surfing Christ' is a hell of good band name. I must make a note of that as I'm thinking of putting a new band project together at the moment. We could maybe rework the lyrics from 'Jesus Wants Me For a Sunbeam' into the theme tune from 'Hawaii five 0'

 

[GNC]

I'm liking this idea, Jesus as the original surfer dude. Unfortunately there's not much evidence I'm aware of that puts surfing in Galilee at the beginning of the first millennium. If it happened at all, Christ could have been in a small boat or canoe, it's the most probable explanation after all, and more believable than ice.