Was Jesus An Illusionist / Magician?

Hieru

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This topical point excerpted from:
Creation Versus Evolution
https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/creation-versus-evolution.14719/
============


This is not a personal criticism, but I would also like to take issue with the idea that a 'creator' should automatically be regarded as a God. I understand how supposedly primitive civilisations may have interpreted advanced visitors from space as being Gods, but I don't see how supposedly intellectual modern humans can jump to the same conclusion. For instance, if I encountered someone who possessed the abilities attributed to the mythological Christ, I would assume that they were some kind of illusionist. I would demand proof that these skills were 'real'. If these abilities were real, I would expect some kind of scientific explanation of how these abilities could be materialised. Even if we had no explanation for such abilities, I would simply imagine that such an individual simply possessed abilities that science is currently unable to explain.........I wouldn't consider these abilities to be of divine origin, as the historic evidence suggests that divinity is a human construct. The same would apply if a 'being' was proven to have created all life in the universe. Yes, they may be highly advanced, but why should such an ability be associated with divinity? Because some ancient manuscripts say so?
 
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QuaziWashboard

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Hieru said:
For instance, if I encountered someone who possessed the abilities attributed to the mythological Christ, I would assume that they were some kind of illusionist. I would demand proof that these skills were 'real'. If these abilities were real, I would expect some kind of scientific explanation of how these abilities could be materialised.
As it happens, I have an interest in theater and in particular, illusionists. It turns out that there are very few actual tricks in any 'magicians' stage act (eg. there are only 3 or 4 card tricks in existance and every card trick you see is just a different variation of one of these) so tricks are quite often 'dressed up' using different props ect. to put a new 'angle' on them and as it happens, one of the most popular angles is 'Christ's miracles.' I have personaly seen Paul Daniels turn water into wine as well as various other stage magicians re-create the miracles of Christ.
What I find interesting is that the tradition of illusionists goes back thousands of years in ancient Egypt, infact, there is evidence of one of the oldest tricks known to man, the 'cup and ball trick' found in hieroglyphs on the wall of a 4,000 year old Egyptian tomb, (I saw this on a program called Penn & Teller's Magic and Mystery Tour presented by Penn & Teller where they went to Egypt and studied their tradition of street illusionists) and this very same trick is still performed, unchanged, by traditional Egyptian street illusionists, known as Gali Gali men, today.
Now....I'm no biblical scholar, but I've heard that between the biblical stories of Jesus as a child and Jesus as a man, quite a big period of his life is unaccounted for and that he is said to have spent this time in Egypt. Could he have possibly studied the art of the illusionist in Egypt and could this be an explanation for his 'miracles'? After all, we know that modern day illusionists can re-create these same 'miracles' on stage today. Also, quite a lot of traditional Egyptian street illusion involves snakes, could this be a clue towards how Moses changed his staff into a snake in front of an Egyptian pharoe when he went to ask for his people's freedom?
 
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Hieru

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QuaziWashboard said:
Now....I'm no biblical scholar, but I've heard that between the biblical stories of Jesus as a child and Jesus as a man, quite a big period of his life is unaccounted for and that he is said to have spent this time in Egypt. Could he have possibly studied the art of the illusionist in Egypt and could this be an explanation for his 'miracles'?
I have to say that the idea of Jesus being a Gali Gali man is quite appealing. It certainly sounds more plausible than him being the son of an omnipresent deity.
 

rynner2

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Hieru said:
I have to say that the idea of Jesus being a Gali Gali man is quite appealing.
I cant say I've heard that term before, and Google doesn't turn up many examples either. Here's one:
The evening concluded with a performance by Gali-Gali man Mister Moran, bringing his own brand of magic to the Yacht Club. Great fun was had by all!
http://www.adventurecruising.co.uk/capt ... &year=2006
(right at the end)

In fact, the other three links google found were in some foreign language(s)!

It would be all too perfect, I suppose, to learn that Gali Gali was a corruption of Galilean...? :?
 

CygnusRex

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Hieru said:
QuaziWashboard said:
Now....I'm no biblical scholar, but I've heard that between the biblical stories of Jesus as a child and Jesus as a man, quite a big period of his life is unaccounted for and that he is said to have spent this time in Egypt. Could he have possibly studied the art of the illusionist in Egypt and could this be an explanation for his 'miracles'?
I have to say that the idea of Jesus being a Gali Gali man is quite appealing. It certainly sounds more plausible than him being the son of an omnipresent deity.
As a slight tangental note on this, there is also the theory that he was travelling with the wealthy tin merchant Joseph of Arimathea.

As Cornwall was a centre of tin trade at this time it also gives rise to the hypothosis that Jesus may have visited England. Additionally this is said to be the source of the line from William Blakes Jerusalem.

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountain green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?


Hypothesis, stacked on assumption, fused with possibility, but makes a good story.
 

QuaziWashboard

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rynner said:
Hieru said:
I have to say that the idea of Jesus being a Gali Gali man is quite appealing.
I cant say I've heard that term before, and Google doesn't turn up many examples either. Here's one:
The evening concluded with a performance by Gali-Gali man Mister Moran, bringing his own brand of magic to the Yacht Club. Great fun was had by all!
http://www.adventurecruising.co.uk/capt ... &year=2006
(right at the end)

In fact, the other three links google found were in some foreign language(s)!

It would be all too perfect, I suppose, to learn that Gali Gali was a corruption of Galilean...? :?
Oh wouldn't it just!!!! :shock: :lol:
Unfortunately I have no idea whether it's an ancent title or just the modern day Egyptian name for a street magician, although common sense would suggest that if travelling magicians are indeed an ancient Egyptian tradition, then maybe the name for them is also an ancent name.
It could even be named after a famous Egyptian magician who's stage name was Luxor Gali Gali and who's act was based on traditional Egyptian street magic . He was born Mahguob Hanafi in 1902. His trade mark trick was the 'cup and balls' trick to which he added the twist of producing live chicks from under the cups. Luxor Gali Gali performed before royalty and American high society and even appeared on the Ed Sullivan show in the 1940s. In the Penn and Teller program I mentioned earlier, they met with Koram, the grandson of Luxor Gali Gali, and he does some magic for them that he said was traditianaly passed down from father to son.
 

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In the Penn and Teller program I mentioned earlier, they met with Koram, the grandson of Luxor Gali Gali, and he does some magic for them that he said was traditianaly passed down from father to son.
alleged grandson, at least by his own claims. he might have been, but it seems like an awful long shot that they just happened to meet him pretty much in the street... and without wanting to make any particular slur on his honesty, he was dirt poor enough (and living in a condemned block of flats) that maybe extracting cash from a couple of rich americans was a nice bit of 'magic' in itself :?
 

QuaziWashboard

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BlackRiverFalls said:
In the Penn and Teller program I mentioned earlier, they met with Koram, the grandson of Luxor Gali Gali, and he does some magic for them that he said was traditionaly passed down from father to son.
alleged grandson, at least by his own claims. he might have been, but it seems like an awful long shot that they just happened to meet him pretty much in the street...
Well where else would you expect to meet a street performer? ;)
But I see what you mean. Maybe it just goes to show how famous Luxor Gali Gali was in his native country. In his defence, he did seem to have knowledge of Egyptian street magic, which I shouldn't imagine would be common knowledge....otherwise, no one'd ever go to see them.
 

QuaziWashboard

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Personaly, I think he was probably a real person. There's just so much that's been written about him, not only in the Bible, I think it's a likely scenario. But as for him being this magical being that could walk on water, cure the ill and turn water into wine ect.? I think it's going a bit far to ask anyone to believe that, same as it would be to ask anyone to believe in any other form of magic. I personaly have a theory (which I've mentioned elsewhere on this message board) that while he was growing up in Egypt he studied under a gali gali man, an ancient form of Egyptian conjuror, (the originators of the cup and ball trick) after all, I've seen every one of Jesus's apparent miracle's re-created by perfectly ordinary, mortal, stage magicians.
 

Pete Younger

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QuaziWashboard said:
I've seen every one of Jesus's apparent miracle's re-created by perfectly ordinary, mortal, stage magicians.
What, even the Lazarus one?
 

ghostdog19

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QuaziWashboard said:
Personaly, I think he was probably a real person.
It's a pity the Acts of Pilate are lost.
Ronson8 said:
QuaziWashboard said:
I've seen every one of Jesus's apparent miracle's re-created by perfectly ordinary, mortal, stage magicians.
What, even the Lazarus one?
Who did the feeding of the 5,000? I missed that one. If we ever have a magician who can do that then that could solve a lot of problems.

Quazi, if there isn't a thread on this then there really should be. Nice idea.
 

feen5

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There was a magic show on Cahnnel 4 over christmas that had two magicans doing the miracles of Jesus including the loaves and fishes. The went to a football ground and during half time did the trick. Very Weird programme but fantastic stuff, buggered if i can remember the names of the guys or the show though, anyone else see it before i spend half the day looking for it on the interweb.
 

ghostdog19

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feen5 said:
There was a magic show on Cahnnel 4 over christmas that had two magicans doing the miracles of Jesus including the loaves and fishes. The went to a football ground and during half time did the trick. Very Weird programme but fantastic stuff, buggered if i can remember the names of the guys or the show though, anyone else see it before i spend half the day looking for it on the interweb.
so the lazarus trick could have been one of Jesus's crew. Lets face it, illusions such as walking on water, even by modern day illusionists, require staff and rigging and a lot of money. The equivalent here would be recreating Da Vinci's giant cross bow catapult contraption using modern technology and modern materials. And it's not like these magicians even have a blue-print to work from. Also, when you get the 'walking on water trick' note its on calm and level water. So, often, the tricks aren't even recreated with any attention to the original claims.

Just dug up the original "Jesus never existed" thread which can be found here:

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13811

I think that all Cameron's findings do is re-affirm the historicity of Jesus, without actually needing any evidence, and regardless of whether his findings are correct or not.
 

feen5

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Yeah they could have been just tricks and then again he could have been the real deal. I was just saying that the miracles could have been done by illusion because they have been done in modern times by magicans, although equally they could have been real.
I think they distract from the real message anyway. I'm not a very religious person at all but Jesus seemed to be genuine in his message of just basically being nice to each other. Love your neighbour and all that nothing wrong with that message and you don't have to go around blowing up anybody to live by it either.
The rest of organized religion whatever it is can take a run and jump for all i care. I'm still trying to find those magicans by the way but i do remember now that C4 said that there will be a follow up programme at easter featuring more illusions based on the Jesus miracles.
 

rynner2

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Walking on water?

Why, a child can do it!



NOT photoshopped! 8)
 

ghostdog19

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feen5 said:
The rest of organized religion whatever it is can take a run and jump for all i care. I'm still trying to find those magicans by the way but i do remember now that C4 said that there will be a follow up programme at easter featuring more illusions based on the Jesus miracles.
"The Magic of Jesus". The magicians are Barry Jones and Stuart Macleod. They did a second show called "Tricks from the Bible".
 

feen5

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Thank you thats the very fellows.
 

ghostdog19

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Note also, their idea of recreating walking on water is in a studio, in a fish tank. Not exactly the biblical recreation of stormy seas. They take the principle idea (in this case, someone walking on water) and apply it to a magic trick which is why I'm surprised that the newspapers and the church made such a hoo-haa about the show at the time. It's just magic based on a theme, not evidence that Jesus was a magician*.

EDIT: *speaking with regard to the reaction at the time.
 

feen5

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I totally agree with you Ghostdog i was just saying that magicans have recreated the miracles to varying degrees. I wouldn't even hesitate to guess weather Jesus was the son of god or just a man (or both) and i don't think it really matters, its the message that counts.
 

ghostdog19

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feen5 said:
I totally agree with you Ghostdog i was just saying that magicans have recreated the miracles to varying degrees. I wouldn't even hesitate to guess weather Jesus was the son of god or just a man (or both) and i don't think it really matters, its the message that counts.
No, I completely agree. The message is what counts, I was commenting merely with regard to general public reaction at the time to these two magicians. I think in general it's a sound idea that he may have been a magician, nothing wrong with that, but for a modern magician to prove it, they would have to show how Jesus would have pulled off such a stunt. And then it wouldn't be so much the Vatican up in arms, it would likely be the Magic Circle (or whatever they call that outfit that protect the secrecy of magic tricks... no, not Hogwarts ;) ).
 

OldTimeRadio

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QuaziWashboard said:
....I've seen every one of Jesus's apparent miracle's re-created by perfectly ordinary, mortal, stage magicians.
But what is this supposed to prove? There's probably not a single historical occurrence that a good conjuror CAN'T recreate by illusion and special effects.

I've seen stage magicians create light and fly. Should I deduce therefrom that Thomas Edison and the Wright Brothers were frauds?
 

OldTimeRadio

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In the modern stage magic re-creations of walking on water, how many of the illusionists have invited an audience member to join them in the stroll?

That seems to have been what happened to Simon Peter, who took several steps across the surface before saying to himself "oooo whatever am I doing?" and sank.
 

QuaziWashboard

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Ronson8 said:
QuaziWashboard said:
I've seen every one of Jesus's apparent miracle's re-created by perfectly ordinary, mortal, stage magicians.
What, even the Lazarus one?
Yes, even the Lazarus one, but think about it, what's so amazing about the Lazarus miracle? Something similar to that one is played out for real every day in hospitals around the world. Lazarus could have simply been in a coma or even induced into a deathlike state through the use of tetrodotoxin or something similar, like they do in voodoo to create so called 'zombies.' Or if you're looking for something even harder than someone simply bringing someone back to life....I've seen a guy CUT A LADY IN HALF! :shock: Then he put her back together as if she was never cut in half in the first place and then he brought her back to life. :roll:

ghostdog19 said:
Lets face it, illusions such as walking on water, even by modern day illusionists, require staff and rigging and a lot of money.

Also, when you get the 'walking on water trick' note its on calm and level water. Just dug up the original "Jesus never existed" thread which can be found here:
They only need 'staff and rigging and a lot of money' if they really want to put on a huge extravaganza for a large audience but remember, this one was just for a few guys on a boat. Doing 'magic tricks' is all about knowing something that the audience doesn't. All it'd need is a shifting sand bar that Jesus knew about that the rest didn't.

OldTimeRadio said:
In the modern stage magic re-creations of walking on water, how many of the illusionists have invited an audience member to join them in the stroll?

That seems to have been what happened to Simon Peter, who took several steps across the surface before saying to himself "oooo whatever am I doing?" and sank.
You never heard of a magicians stooge?
 

rynner2

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All it'd need is a shifting sand bar that Jesus knew about that the rest didn't.
But the others were professional fishermen, while Jesus was just a humble carpenter (allegedly). 8)

Or are you saying he had supernatural powers...? :shock:
 

QuaziWashboard

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rynner said:
All it'd need is a shifting sand bar that Jesus knew about that the rest didn't.
But the others were professional fishermen, while Jesus was just a humble carpenter (allegedly). 8)

Or are you saying he had supernatural powers...? :shock:
Yeah, it's that 'allegedly' bit isn't it. His Dad might well have been a carpenter, Jesus's day job might well have been carpentry, but wasn't he supposed to also be a Rabbi? And who knows what else he was or what he knew? There's a great big period of his life story, as he was growing up, missing from records. But ghostdog's quote;.....
ghostdog19 said:
Note also, their idea of recreating walking on water is in a studio, in a fish tank. Not exactly the biblical recreation of stormy seas.
.....brings a cirtain possibility. If I was to do this same trick with a sand bar, I'd want the sea to be a bit choppy in order to cover the fact that there is a sand bar there.
He may not have known beforehand that a sand bar was there, but infact noticed it while on the boat and simply took advantage of the moment.
All I'm saying is that him being a magician is a bit more believable that him having supernatural powers.
If someone today claimed to be Jesus and did all the same miracles, exactly like Jesus is reported to have done, to prove he was Jesus, would any of us, even the devoutly religious among us, actualy believe that Jesus was really back or would you suspect trickery of some sort?
Take his ultimate miracle, his end piece, his 'piece de resistance.' The crucifiction.
He was nailed to a cross, where he died, was placed in a tomb where he came back to life....Let's look at that again from a magicians point of view.
He already knew how to make a person appear to be dead after his experimentation with Lazarus.
He had a private tomb, ready and waiting really close to the crucifiction site.
The actual crucifiction? Well he knew it was gonna hurt, but then it's not unknown for people to sacrifice a bit of pain in order to make an impression, look at Hudini, jumping from high bridges, in chains, into freezing winter waters. Look at all those who re-enact the crucifiction today. It's amazing how much pain a person can take.
Crucifiction was designed to be a slow, agonising death that would last for days, yet Jesus lasted just a few hours...why? Well because that's all he needed to make the trick look convicing.
So then we have the spear in the side bit. Many people pierce themselves in similar ways as a stage act today, the important thing is to know just where to do the piercing so it misses any vital organs and the area of the torso just below the ribs and to one side is perfect for this illusion to take place, you can pass a spear right through the side of a person without doing any lasting damage and, remarkably, without much bloodshed, which bring us to the next point. Any detective can tell you that we know he wasn't dead because when the spear went through his side, he bled profusely. If he had infact taken something like tetrodotoxin, he wouldn't have been able to cry out in pain if he wanted to. According to John, Jesus from the cross complains of thirst. In reply, he is given a sponge allegedly soaked in vinegar. Rather than another act of cruelty, vinegar -- or soured wine -- is a temporary stimulant with the effects similar to smelling salts. As such, it was often used to resuscitate flagging slaves on galleys. For a wounded and exhausted man, a sniff or taste of vinegar produces a restorative effect, a momentary surge of energy. And yet in Jesus' case, his reaction is to utter his last words and "give up the ghost", so that also neatly explains how and when he could have taken the tetrodotoxin. It could have been in the vinegar, but it was more likely slipped into his mouth by whoever was doing the spongeing so as to get the dose right.
So then he was taken down from the cross, placed in a tomb, and a great big rock was rolled into place to stop anyone witnessing what happened next, just like a modern stage magician uses curtains. After a few days of recovery and private nursing from people already placed in the tomb, he re-emerged alive and well.
The only really dodgy bit for him was when Jesus' executioners were in fact about to break his legs when they were forestalled... so that was either a lucky escape, or the guards were 'in on the act.' It's interesting to note that at least one of them (Longinus) became a Christian afterwards.
Bow to the audience and take your place in the history books.
Now....I'm not saying that's how it happened, but it could have happened like that. The alternative is to belive that he really did rise from the dead.... but which looks the most believable to you?
 

rynner2

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If I was to do this same trick with a sand bar, I'd want the sea to be a bit choppy in order to cover the fact that there is a sand bar there.
No, it doesn't work like that. Waves will break soonest over shallow water, revealing the presence of the danger to wary sailors.

In how many films and books does the lookout cry something like "Breakers ahead!!"? 8)
 

QuaziWashboard

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rynner said:
If I was to do this same trick with a sand bar, I'd want the sea to be a bit choppy in order to cover the fact that there is a sand bar there.
No, it doesn't work like that. Waves will break soonest over shallow water, revealing the presence of the danger to wary sailors.

In how many films and books does the lookout cry something like "Breakers ahead!!"? 8)
Inflatable shoes then? ;)
There are also theories that he walked on ice.
Whatever, it might never have even happened. If we, just for a moment assume that Jesus was some form of a magician, then we must also assume that with cirtain tricks he had helpers. (hey, all good magicians have assistants and the crucifiction would cirtainly need a team effort behind it) As it happens, these guys would be the prime suspects as his team. After all, they were his disciples and accompanied him almost everywhere. They were the only 'alleged' witnesses to the miracle so who's to say it wasn't just a made up story designed to get people talking about Jesus. Or from a magicians point of view...a nice bit of free advertising.
 

QuaziWashboard

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Further to my earlier post about the Crucifiction, I found this at http://www.halexandria.org/dward229.htm ;
there is also the consistent agreement of modern scholars that the Crucifiction was more than likely held at the Garden of Gethsemane, which would leave considerable room for a mock crucifixion, a skillfully stage-managed ritual. Only a few eyewitnesses would have been immediately present, with the general populace constrained to witness from a distance, the latter fact confirmed by the Synoptic Gospels.
Furthermore, in the Greek version of the Gospels, when Joseph of Arimetha asks for Jesus' body, he used the word 'soma'.... a word applied only to a living body. Pilate, assenting to the request, employs the word 'ptoma'.... which means 'corpse.' (Perhaps the Greeks knew something we didn't.) Interestingly, there is also the possibility that Pilate was bribed. This would account for the crucifiction taking place at the Garden of Gethsemane (private land), and for the body being taken down so quickly.
Pesonally I think Joseph of Arimetha was either his agent or his manager. ;)
EDIT; forgot to put the quote marks and source in.
 

rjmrjmrjm

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Really Quaizi? I didn't know that, can you point me in the direction of some books or something that deals with this theory? I did do a google search but only found http://www.halexandria.org/dward229.htm which is almost exactly what you said without any references.

(Oh, apart from that thoroughly reputable HBHG)
 

ghostdog19

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QuaziWashboard said:
Inflatable shoes then?
The name's Christ, Jesus Christ. Hey, it all fits, after all, there is the Q document (or Q gospel) maybe its really the gospel according to Q? Jesus was just some gadget laden super spy :D

EDITED TO FIX QUOTE... DANG HTML
 
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