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The Truth Is/Is Not Out There. Or: I Do / Don't Want To Believe

A

Anonymous

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So, here it is in a nutshell and up for debate:

"I want to believe and will suspend judgement until I have more proof, for or against (no matter how daft the phenomena, or claims may seem at the time)."

Versus

"I don't have to believe, because I know most 'Fortean style phenomena' are, obviously, Barnum and Bailey bunk, suitable only for gulling the rubes and I can prove it."

...

Are they two polarised, opposed and entrenched positions, or is there room for negotiation?

Any Skeptics still around may care to participate.

Serious debate, both sides, please.

No flaming, or I'll ask the mods to close the Thread.
 
No flaming from this end, I promise :)

Seems to me the first step here is to define what constitutes proof - unless we do that, this debate will become circular.

Also, the we need to establish a definition of 'paranormal' Later, I will call the value of the term into question, but best to decide what it means before I try to persuade y'all it's an empty, floating signifier ;)

(note in edit: Andro didn't use the term 'Paranormal' in his introduction, but I guess this discussion will revolve around it. )
 
Alexius said:
Seems to me the first step here is to define what constitutes proof - unless we do that, this debate will become circular.
Yes.

The modus ponens, or the 'grounds for debate' as Umberto Eco calls it (after St Thomas Aquinas).

We certainly need to decide, when we discuss something, phenomena, or extraordinary claims, etc. whether we always mean the same thing.

Occasional translations, or clearer descriptions may be necessary.
 
On another note, I suggest we all defer to Andro as chairman for this discussion - that way a degree of decorum can be maintained & the thread kept on course.
 
Alexius said:
On another note, I suggest we all defer to Andro as chairman for this discussion - that way a degree of decorum can be maintained & the thread kept on course.
And I'll suggest that we don't, as I still have to work on my next 'Drunken Archaeologists Fight Demons' extravaganza and fix the skirting boards.
 
Ummm -

Do you think that we may need to examine the nature of 'objective truth' (or 'reality' and 'normality') if we are to discuss concepts which imply a variance from these, such as the 'paranormal', or the means by which we assess 'proof'?

(Edited in accordance with Andorman's request)
 
Indeed - but we need a solid starting point else we'll become The Wise Blind Men & The Elephant.

As such a starting point, can somebody who has the OED or Websters at hand post the definitions of 'proof', 'truth' , 'objective' & 'subjective'. Not that it'll necessarily be accepted as canonical, but it will at least give us a reference point.
 
All the weirdness that abounds makes the world a more interesting place.

As long as something entertains or interests me, I don't really think about whether I have to believe in it or not.

I appreciate a good story. Going along with it, for the sake if it's entertainment value doesn't make me gullible or deluded.

Fortean stuff is mostly a great spectator sport, and occasionally a great game to be a player in.

I suspend judgment, not because I don't have sufficient appropriate evidence blah blah blah, but because true or not, I'd rather hear the story than have someone pour cold water and wet blankets on it.

I've almost totally given up on 'Escapist Fiction'. The world actually is a fantastic, interesting place, if you know where to look for the good bits.
 
I tend to approach the subject from a different angle too - I'm interested in what people say/report, etc. and what the details are, more than anything else. It's something I find fascinating. And there are some things I genuinely think fom the get-go are of a mundane, misidentified source (i.e. orbs, rods, chmetrails) - but nevertheless it's still interesting to observe WRT how people discuss it all.

Whether it's true or not is another thing entirely. Some things appear easier to spot as having a mundane source than others. Other things are just so 'out there' that one can only wonder what sort of processes are going on to create such a thing/event.

I don't class myself as a Fortean tho', and don't refer to myself as one.
 
Alistair P said:
All the weirdness that abounds makes the world a more interesting place.

Of course, it may very well be that what is 'weird,' 'strange,' etc. actually shows not mistakes and accidents in the 'proper' unfolding of the universe, but rather, faults in our understanding. Until you know all things about the universe (omniscience, really) you cannot say what is and is not. The example of the phenomenologists world being a landscape of phenomena, over which the borders of scientific acceptance wander and move. A great discovery, a cry of 'Eureaka!'-- the borders change-- though the phenomena itself remains unmoving.

The proposition:
"I want to believe and will suspend judgement until I have more proof, for or against (no matter how daft the phenomena, or claims may seem at the time)."
is that of open-mindedness, and an acceptance that 'more is hidden than is seen', though it does require a permanent suspension of judgement, for judgement depends forever on a complete possession and understanding of facts, which are always forthcoming as we probe the limits of the world which move as does our understanding. If we suspend our belief until we have all the facts, then we will never come to belief, for there are always more facts to come. And with new facts come new theories and with new theories come counter-theories and syntheses; dscience, discovery and understanding expand infinitely. And, the most powerful feature of belief, is that is is to know without knowing, and to hold a thing to be true because you believe it to be true.

The other position, that which says:
"I don't have to believe, because I know most 'Fortean style phenomena' are, obviously, Barnum and Bailey bunk, suitable only for gulling the rubes and I can prove it."
is the far less atisfactory position. It is one which decides what is before it knows, and one who follows this is doomed to falsity. You cannot command nature to conform to your theories and designs-- you will always lose out, unless you take the path Fort so loathed, and deny, discredit, suppress and destroy ideas and thinkers who contradict the faulty idea and thinker.

But of course, we cannot go through our life always waiting, waiting for judgement; it is human nature to judge. We should rather, as Fort said, manke temporary ''acceptances'' of what is, and then hold that thing only for a while, until we find something ''more nearly real'' [BOTD Ch3 p26] which then again becomes the new acceptances. But it is to be understood that nothing of mans thought-invention will be anything more than a step away from the truth.

Science ought be cautious, tentative and almost subversive in its acceptance of its tenets.

Ian
 
JerryB said:
I tend to approach the subject from a different angle too - I'm interested in what people say/report, etc. and what the details are, more than anything else. It's something I find fascinating. And there are some things I genuinely think fom the get-go are of a mundane, misidentified source (i.e. orbs, rods, chmetrails) - but nevertheless it's still interesting to observe WRT how people discuss it all.

Whether it's true or not is another thing entirely. Some things appear easier to spot as having a mundane source than others. Other things are just so 'out there' that one can only wonder what sort of processes are going on to create such a thing/event.

I don't class myself as a Fortean tho', and don't refer to myself as one.

I find my self pretty much in accord with what JerryB has to say.

I am a scientist but some of the greatest input into my 'Fortean' thinking has actually come from good teachers I have had in science which in some ways show that Fort was right to outline the foolishness of Science (capital S for the establishment rather than the discipline) because once people get locked in with grants and reputations it can be very hard to retreat from a position/theory when true sciene should be sceptical but not just about information/positions that challenge it but also about our own theories and ideas and even our own ways and modes of thinking. Science (small s) can only operate properly if people are prepared to admit that they are wrong that theories may be iterations on a path towards 'the truth' but they may also be a false trail.

Although Fort largely focused his intelect on Science what he seems to have been doing (at least for me) is taking a broader swipe at 'received wisdom' or the easy answer. Possibly if he had been born earlier he would have rallied to the support of science in its battles against religion and pos. if he was around in the last 50 years he would also have aimed a few attacks on such easy answers as UFOs being aliens or all Bigfoot sightings being of some unknown hominoid.

I approach strange phenomena in three main ways:

1. No data is damned - you clearly can't have an overview of the subject if you pick and chose the data that you collect. Even if it turns out to be mistaken identification, hoaxes, madness, delusions, mass hysteria, etc. then that is as suitable an area of study as the true paranormal. Just the pure fact that someone has reported something makes it a valid piece of data it just might not apply to the field you intially think it does ;)

2. That data needs to be analysed - if we can sift through the data and reclassify (rather than actually discard) the data still remaining may point us to some interesting or unusual conclusions or it may not but if you damn data you will never know.

3. That the accumulation of data may help provide a much roader picture - one Bigfoot sighting is interesting as is another but if you can draw them together you get a much more interesting picture of the whole topic (and often things are stranger and more unusual than individual reports suggest). I think this is what I love about Fort, FT and the FTMB - without being put in its broader context the reports/data become insubstantial and pointless (except for transitory 'titillation' if you are so minded) but ocne examined as part of a continuum of reports and related and connected data it may have something interesting to say about the human condition and/or the wider world we live in (as though there was any clear distinction between them both).

Anyway that tends to be my thinking behind things (at least at this moment in time but I reserve the right to discard and ignore what I've said above ;) ) - I don't really explain myself a lot and anyway my ideas are nearly always shifting and mutating so what seemed a mighty fine idea (or just interesting at the time) may prove not to be.

Emps
 
Alexius said:
Emps comments above remind me of the SPR's 19th century 'Crisis Apparitions' study. They sent out a very large number of letters soliciting accounts - when the results were in, they sifted and classifed. I think the result remains a paradigm of how such a study should be conducted (although the advent of mass communications at once eases and complictes the process).

This may be one of the sticking points. How much value does anecdotal evidence hold?

And I think this may be the sticking point for some skeptics - that so much of the damned data is unquantifiable. At which point, if there is no other way to assess it, it just gets filed away whereas (at least as far as points 1 and probably 3) it is a great jumping off point for analyses of things like the nature of belief, experience, etc. and how these systems (Bennet 58-59) evolve and cross-pollinate each other.

Pos., while unworkable as a model for evolution it is possible that Lamarckian evolution:

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13571

may be a worthy metaphor to explain the "exogamy, practicised with ideas":

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13633

Overview of exogamy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exogamy

It is easy to dismiss anecdotal evidence if what you are trying to do is establish whether something is "real" or not but (at least for my points 1 and 3) that rather misses their important contribution in analysing shifting patterns of the "systems".

[edit: "the skeptics" becomes "some skeptics" - it never pays to stereotype ;) ]

Emps
 
(edit: This post prompted responses below - erased - A.)
 
Alexius, m'dear,

That is far too complex for the common herd... Tell then that it's God's will or stick it in a sporting and heavily sponsored jersey and they shall follow it... Abstract concepts merely end up with you either nailed to a tree and atrocities committed in your name or just plain ignored... I'm certain in Judeao-Christan literature there is a comment about casting pearls before swine. Its possibly the most gnostic statement I know :D
 
Hugo Cornwall said:
Alexius, m'dear,

That is far too complex for the common herd... Tell then that it's God's will or stick it in a sporting and heavily sponsored jersey and they shall follow it... Abstract concepts merely end up with you either nailed to a tree and atrocities committed in your name or just plain ignored... I'm certain in Judeao-Christan literature there is a comment about casting pearls before swine. Its possibly the most gnostic statement I know :D

That comes across as an extremely crass statement IMHO :rolleyes: You might as well say 'bloody peasants' and have done with it ;)
 
(edit: erased - quoted by Androman below - A.)
 
JerryB said:
That comes across as an extremely crass statement IMHO :rolleyes: You might as well say 'bloody peasants' and have done with it ;)

Sorry... Bloody peasants... :D

By and large though, and I think it is media led and culturally reinforced that abstract thought is largely discouraged. There is more interest in which oriface Peter Andre will stick what in Jordan than there is many other considerably more important subjects. It is popular because it sells. I'm certain Gore Vidal puts it better than I do, but I'm damned if I can remember the quote, and would prefer not to misquote the man.

[edit] BTW, you are right, Alex, it was simply a joke, although I do quietly despair of where our civilisation is heading...
 
JerryB said:
That comes across as an extremely crass statement IMHO :rolleyes: You might as well say 'bloody peasants' and have done with it ;)

I suppose it could be interpretted in that way but I took it to mean that an awful lot of people actually want the easy answers because. lets be honest, if everyone practised a kind of open-minded scepticism (i.e. sceptical of everything rather than just of unusual claims) then there would be no one to feed received wisdom too.

A lot of people are happy to be told simple truths because the alternative (that things might be random, pointless, weird, etc.) can be truly frightening (but also exhilirating in a standing on the edge of a cliff kind of thing). I sometimes feel that people buy into conspiracy theories, esp. in the assasination arena, because otherwise things like the death of Diana would just be a tragic accident.

For example, on a personal front, I would really love to believe in God and the afterlife. When I talk to believers I find myself, in some ways, jealous of their certainty. In this context it wouldn't matter if I believed in an afterlife as if I was right then that would be great and if I'm wrong it makes no difference.

In some ways these comfort blankets help people make life bearable and you can't really criticise them. Sometimes I feel like Cypher in the Matrix willing to make a deal to forget it all and go back into the Matrix.

Then I get over these times of existential angst (the dark tea time of the soul??) and I get on with enjoying the world in its strange and varied and unclassifiable variety ;)

[edit: And HC posted while I was composing the above and I agree, esp. with his mentioning the Cult of Celebrity, but I find it more understandable in that if you stuff you head with meaningless pap then there is less chance of something unpleasant sneaking in and upsetting your worldview]

Emps
 
Alexius said:
Sure it wasn't meant that way...just an amusing jibe at Alexius's oddly wired idolect (which in my opinion deserves jibing - providing the jibe is actually clever & funny...)
There's not much point on agreeing to try and find the common ground on the meaning of topics of a discussion, if no one can actually understand your exposition (explanatory account).

Leave the rhetorical gymnastic displays of eloquence to 'Barnum & Bailey' sideshow barkers, like Jacques Derrida, please. ;)
 
I thought it meant that the King is naked but we don't notice the fact... courtesy of the four page spread in 'Now' of the King's new wardrobe with a critique by Trinny and Suzanna...
 
Alexius said:
Tends to be a popular hierarchy of fields too; zoology is fine and entertaining, but semiotics is dismissed as pretentious fluff.
True. It's media dahlings that often laugh loudest at the pretentions of modern subjects, like 'Media Studies'.

It's a bit like lesser denizens of the 'Magic Circle' complaining about the outing antics of 'Penn and Teller'.

...

Forteanism should be both confrontational and expository. When it comes to empty cant and humbug, we're going for the jugular, just as much as we're there to demand that 'passed over' and tacitly forbidden subjects get a second look and are treated with something like due respect.
 
Okey dokey, the paper back version:

Experimentation & the collation of anecdote are complementary. Differing approachs to any field of study - so long as they are well formulated & applied, are complementary.

The fuzziness of our notion of truth leads us to apply caution when deciding what is, or is not, evidence.

The tendency to formulate oppositions like 'true' and 'false' makes for convenient interpretation, but is problematic.

There we have it. Shall endeavour to write without enthusiasm in future.
 
Media Studies in particular leads to an appreciation of manipulation - so many folk tacitly accept the photograph as more authentic than the verbal description. As if one were un mediated, and the other not.

Similar heirachy operating here - experment is immediate and unmediated, so objective. Anecdote distant and mediated, so subjective.

Such clean lines arouse suspicion...

The Fortean approach seems to be attacked prinicipally for it's disbelief in this clean deliniation, and it's tolerance of anecdote cross referenced with anecdote. Those who subscribe to the opposition seem to view Fortean studies as ill grounded at best, naive & badly misled at worst.
 
AndroMan said:
Leave the rhetorical gymnastic displays of eloquence to 'Barnum & Bailey' sideshow barkers, like Jacques Derrida, please. ;)

I agree - I'd advise caution, otherwise this thread will be a prime candidate for 'Pseuds Corner' ;)

And if anyone fears for civilisation because of what's on TV here in the UK, I'd suggest that they need to get out more often ;) I certainly don't think such stuff leads people away from thinking about anything 'deeper' - seems like a bit of kneejerk reaction to TV. You might as well say video games cause violence and the internet spawns paedophilia.
 
Who said TV... I was basing my assesment of 'popular' culture by the Racks at W.H. Smith and other fine news agents, what passes for news in the larger selling rags that pass themselves off as august journals of Middle England as well as the self confessed adult comics the Sun, the Star and the Sport. Take a look at that respected arbiter of taste Bizarre sometime, or Loaded, FHM, etc.... If we are talking a race of intellectual giants here then who the hell buys the dross in such huge numbers as to keep them afloat? TV is largely moving wallpaper... although what passes fo news really isn't. What is the Zeitgeist that this engenders and engenders the media?
 
This is degenerating now.

Like I said, I don't mind being told to switch style. Bandying the word 'pseud' around is not going to serve much though, is it?

As for folk who believe media distorts having to 'get out more'...like Andro and I said, there is a cultural pecking order, and cultural or linguistic studies tend to be portrayed as posturing. But that doesn't make it so. Not our fault if it sails over your head.

Face it - some things you have to meet half way and try to understand. Nobody has to, but if you want to it helps. And certainly, if you want to knock it, you have to earn the privelege by showing you understand it first - else it rings hollow.

Listen guys - apologies for adopting the wrong tone at the outset. I've put a couple of ideas across and hope they are a contribution. But I sense the beginnings of a kicking session here, so I'm bowing out.

Will gladly erase my comments if they are deemed a nuisance.(edit: Have erased the stuff I summarised to save thread space)

Realistically & without pique

A. ;)
 
I think you're being overly sensitive ;) All I was trying t point out was that it would be counterproductive for the discussion to boil down to semantics - that's the seed for a diffrent discussion IMHO.

The main gist of Andro's original question is (correct me if I'm wrong) whether there is any room for negotiation between 'believers' and 'non-believers' as far as Forteana is concerned. I think that there is a possibility, but it depends on what arm of Forteana it comes from. One good example is ball lightning. Another is earthlights. Both seem somewhat fantastical and evidence concerning them is largely anecdotal (be it through eyewitness accounts, or photos, or film, etc.). But both phenomena seem to raise a flag for the possibility that some as yet not understood physical process is taking place. And it seems that some scientists are beginning to take an interest in it.

So perhaps sometimes phenomena that start off living in the Fortean camp slowly gain acceptance within Science. But from the get-go they're excluded by Science, but info about them is collected by Forteans. Perhaps there is other pehnomena out there that is being sat on by Forteans that point to things that Science may one day take interest in or accept into the fold. Perhaps tales of sea monsters do indeed point to yet unknown species of animals, etc......

[EDIT] - It just occured to me that Paul Devereux is a good example of a Fortean who has brought some subjects into the Science fold - his work on earthlights, archaeology, etc.. So I think that shows that some common ground can be found.
 
Alex I think Jerry was joking. Both you and I have a naturally florid style, since we both enjoy the rhythm of words... We have, by and large the vocab and the wit to use it. A lot have the vocab but either not the wit or not the nerve to... fair enough and more power to them. Andro, on the other hand, I feel was a little overly harsh, which is ground zero. Ignore it as a blip, he's been know to go for hyperbolic, if not tangential prose...

I would suggest a manly handshake and an gentleman's agreement to forgive each other our styles of communication and to accept that actually, we do largely bat for the same team, we just express it in different ways.
 
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