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Utopia

GNC

King-Sized Canary
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We don't seem to have a thread on utopia. I was reading that hauntology article in the latest FT, and the writer made the point that a lot of science fiction of the speculative kind used to be based on the premise of a forthcoming utopia, that we would eventually reach a perfect society. All those kids' books promising a great future to live during the sixties and seventies, and so on.

But now that idea, he says, has disappeared. When you see all the doomsday prophecies that dominate talk of the future these days, you start to wonder, what happened to all the optimism? Does anyone now believe in utopia?
 
Utopia has been fiction from the very start:

The term utopia was coined from Greek by Sir Thomas More for his 1516 book Utopia, describing a fictional island society in the Atlantic Ocean.

The word comes from Greek: οὐ ("not") and τόπος ("place") and means "no-place", and strictly describes any non-existent society 'described in considerable detail'. However, in standard usage, the word's meaning has narrowed and now usually describes a non-existent society that is intended to be viewed as considerably better than contemporary society.[2]

Eutopia
, derived from Greek εὖ ("good" or "well") and τόπος ("place"), means "good place", and is strictly speaking the correct term to describe a positive utopia. In English, eutopia and utopia are homophonous, which may have given rise to the change in meaning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia#Etymology
 
We don't seem to have a thread on utopia. I was reading that hauntology article in the latest FT, and the writer made the point that a lot of science fiction of the speculative kind used to be based on the premise of a forthcoming utopia, that we would eventually reach a perfect society. All those kids' books promising a great future to live during the sixties and seventies, and so on.

But now that idea, he says, has disappeared. When you see all the doomsday prophecies that dominate talk of the future these days, you start to wonder, what happened to all the optimism? Does anyone now believe in utopia?
It might be because dystopia is somehow more believable.
 
I remember having "The World of the Future" series (in Norwegian) in the 70s. I think I still got them stored somewhere.

future cities book.jpg
 
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... [A] lot of science fiction of the speculative kind used to be based on the premise of a forthcoming utopia, that we would eventually reach a perfect society. All those kids' books promising a great future to live during the sixties and seventies, and so on.

But now that idea, he says, has disappeared. When you see all the doomsday prophecies that dominate talk of the future these days, you start to wonder, what happened to all the optimism? Does anyone now believe in utopia?

First - I agree with Rynner's point that 'utopia' generally originated and proliferated in the context of fiction, and that the label is arguably misleading at face value. Personally, I've always tended to suspect More employed the 'no place' version deliberately, so as to be slyly sardonic or satirical. This tongue-in-cheek angle was more obvious with Butler's 'Erewhon' (derived by reversing 'nowhere').

Having said that ... I suspect GNC's query has more to do with historical attempts at visualizing, promoting, and / or operationalizing one or another utopian ideal over the last couple of centuries. I can only sketch how I see things in very broad strokes ...

- There was a broad-based but diversely manifested 19th century fashion for mindsets, philosophies, and policies grounded in the notion of dynamic change leading ever upward to better conditions or states. Much of this attitude can be traced back to over-simplistically distorted interpretations of (e.g.) Hegel and Darwin. In other words, 'utopia' was the often unspoken objective to be obtained through 'Progress' (with a big 'P'). This was the Bandwagon Utopia vision (i.e., it would be a positive outcome for everyone everywhere).

- To a lesser extent there were multiple groups who coalesced and 'dropped out' to establish their own mini-utopias, such as the many religion-based communes in the USA. This was the Do-It-Yourself (DIY) Utopia vision (i.e., the positive outcome would accrue only to those who directly enacted it).

- Neither the Bandwagon nor the DIY visions survived the 20th century unscathed.

- Two World Wars effectively demonstrated mankind was not on track toward any sort of utopian status - especially since the scientific / technological achievements touted as contributing to Progress repeatedly seemed to be dedicated to warfare first and foremost. IMHO the culminating event was the arrival of nuclear weapons, which proved we were better equipped and more readily disposed to enact perfect annihilation than perfect society.

- In the wake of the World Wars we entered the dark Cold War Era, defined by conflict between the Capitalist / Consumerist Utopians and the Workers / Proletariat Utopians. By the time this era ended (assuming it really has ... ) both sides had essentially proven they were flawed and unlikely to lead to social perfection.

- During this period even the non-military scientific / technological wonders supposed to foster utopia began to be recognized for their downsides (e.g., pollution; side-effects; etc.).

- If pressed to specify a pivotal point at which belief in the Bandwagon vision clearly began to fall apart, I'd nominate the publication of The Limits to Growth (Club of Rome; 1972).

- In the mean time, the DIY approach sporadically flourished (e.g., Sixties-era communes), only to have most of the participating groups / mini-societies dissipate over time.

- The unavoidable common element among utopian visions is 'everyone being on the same page' - i.e., everyone 'buying into' whatever 'system' is involved. To use the po-mo phrasing ... Utopia requires adherence to a totalizing narrative, and no one puts much stock in totalizing narratives anymore.

- Early on there were idealistic notions that the 'Net (broadly defined) would set the stage for widespread, if not universal, coalescence toward more constructive Progress in the direction of utopia. This idealism has been trashed as the 'Net has gotten increasingly territorialized, trivialized, and monetized so as to allow individuals to create their own isolated spaces within which they can ignore anything beyond their own whims. In other words, the widely expected 'utopian' effects have been progressively negated by the sort of 'you-topian' (personalized; personally circumscribed) usage modality that's proven so attractive to the masses.
 
I'm sorry I asked now, not because Enola's answer was poor, it was excellent and comprehensive, but it does seem to operate without any hope. If we simply accept things slide into a selfish mess in our inevitable future, doesn't that excuse an awful lot of bad behaviour and propagate a belief that nothing beyond feeding the self matters?

The 20thC utopian ideals came to grief, and you'd be pressed to find any new ones in this century, but does that mean we just stop trying? Do we give up on trusting humanity to improve because it has failed so often before? It's getting so bad that anyone who claims we can move to a better life here (rather than an afterlife there) is labelled a naïve idiot, and existence is more like juggling various drawbacks and outright dangers to make sure we're ahead for a while.
 
Thank you ...

The relatively pessimistic vibe of my historical sketch is something I readily admit reflects my personal experiences and character, and hence may not generalize. As a Child of the Sixties who's seen pretty much all the (often admittedly naive) hopes of that era betrayed, subverted, or rejected, I'd be the last person to call if you're seeking a Pollyanna outlook.

As to 'hope' (once again in unavoidably very broad strokes ... )

There are recently-emergent themes that seem to have utopian characteristics, if only at face value. However, it seems to me these latest forward-looking orientations do not offer - and arguably avoid - anything I'd call 'hopeful'.

One example is the transhumanism movement(?), which is vested in the notion that science and technology will aid us in evolving into better versions of humans. The connection to 'utopia' lies in the unavoidable subtext that we cannot and will not have a more perfect social order until and unless we make ourselves into better organisms.

Another example is the notion of 'The Singularity', which basically claims there will come a pivot point at which humanity will magically transcend to / into something completely different. This sounds intriguing, until one notices none of the notion's proponents are willing to suggest what may lie on the other side of this mysterious juncture.

Although these trends exhibit respectively diverse interpretations and agendas, they still share a commitment to the sort of totalizing narrative that no one seems to accept anymore. In this sense, they bear a resemblance to earlier utopian thinking. However ...

You'll notice that both these examples avoid offering any 'hope' in the sense of even suggesting a more perfect social structure on the other side of their respective transitions. Hope for a more perfect future (a particular outcome) has been supplanted by a vague zeal for revolutionary transformations (a process). Does this constitute hope or simply desperation?

Maybe the key point is to always bear in mind that 'utopia' has always initially appeared as an illustrative fiction, and it may well be wisest to leave it at that. Some folks have treated the concept more seriously than others. Those who have treated the notion as 'dead serious' too frequently end up being 'seriously deadly' - to themselves, and sometimes to others.
 
Another example is the notion of 'The Singularity', which basically claims there will come a pivot point at which humanity will magically transcend to / into something completely different. This sounds intriguing, until one notices none of the notion's proponents are willing to suggest what may lie on the other side of this mysterious juncture.
They don't know. It could be good or ill.

I say we keep trying to achieve a utopia. It's a worthy aim.
 
Was it Jonathan Swift who said that for every hundred men who try to build a Utopia, you're lucky to find one who can, for instance, sucessfully manage a hen-house and eggery?
 
Thinking about it, might have been Voltaire. Was he the same period as Swift or slightly later? Certainly a French version, i supect.
 
Thinking about it, might have been Voltaire. Was he the same period as Swift or slightly later? ...

Their lives largely overlapped, with Swift being older by circa 27 years.

Swift: 1667 - 1745
Voltaire: 1694 - 1778
 
I wonder if utopias as the preserve of science fiction has damaged the idea from the start? Then as Enola says, all those with a vision subsequently trampled the idea into the dust by enforcing it with a heavy hand. Even Bill Hicks harboured a dream of world peace and space exploration, would put it at the end of his act too, but it just sounds like Star Trek rather than an achievable goal now. Calling it "Pollyanna" thinking seems to dismiss it out of hand. Although many utopias in SF have a fatal flaw to keep the story interesting.
 
I wonder if utopias as the preserve of science fiction has damaged the idea from the start? Then as Enola says, all those with a vision subsequently trampled the idea into the dust by enforcing it with a heavy hand. ...

Even acknowledging the diverse ways in which one may trace the origins of science fiction, allusions to utopian societies / civilizations go much farther back than SF - all the way to (e.g.) Plato. As a result, I'd tend to say the situation is reversed - i.e., speculative fiction focused on futures / otherworldly settings / scientific and technological themes (i.e., SF) inherited the utopian trope from earlier philosophers and literary figures (for whom utopian scenarios were fantastic spins on 'the here and now').
 
Even acknowledging the diverse ways in which one may trace the origins of science fiction, allusions to utopian societies / civilizations go much farther back than SF - all the way to (e.g.) Plato. As a result, I'd tend to say the situation is reversed - i.e., speculative fiction focused on futures / otherworldly settings / scientific and technological themes (i.e., SF) inherited the utopian trope from earlier philosophers and literary figures (for whom utopian scenarios were fantastic spins on 'the here and now').
Yes, many SF stories are intended as social commentary or as a means of drawing attention to issues in the real world.
 
Even acknowledging the diverse ways in which one may trace the origins of science fiction, allusions to utopian societies / civilizations go much farther back than SF - all the way to (e.g.) Plato. As a result, I'd tend to say the situation is reversed - i.e., speculative fiction focused on futures / otherworldly settings / scientific and technological themes (i.e., SF) inherited the utopian trope from earlier philosophers and literary figures (for whom utopian scenarios were fantastic spins on 'the here and now').

But did the philosophers of the Ancient World believe in their utopias, or were they playing intellectual games? I suppose you can't paint them all with the same brush, of course.
 
But did the philosophers of the Ancient World believe in their utopias, or were they playing intellectual games? I suppose you can't paint them all with the same brush, of course.

I don't claim to have a comprehensive knowledge of pre-19th century utopian writings, so I can only answer based on the examples familiar to me.

Plato's Republic and Laws both refer to an ideal city / society. Both are presented in the form of dialogues, so there's some measure of indirection to be overcome in trying to pin down what Plato's message (and personal opinions) may have been.

Anyway ... In both cases Plato was generally addressing things in the abstract in the service of making his philosophical point(s). As such, I wouldn't consider his writings to be mere 'intellectual games' - if by that you mean a cursory or casual thought experiment.

These dialogues (and perhaps other contemporary philosophers' writings ... ) represented a transition from a backward-looking notion of paradise / utopia as some perfect state from which humanity had fallen (devolved, lost, whatever ... ) to something more forward-looking as an objective to which humanity might aspire.

So far as I'm aware, this treatment of utopia as an abstract model or example remained the main approach through the Enlightenment. The main difference I see is that by the time of the Enlightenment utopian visions were as, or perhaps even more, often employed as negative examples (for critical / satirical effect) than as blueprints for attainable perfection.

Personally, I tend to associate dystopian visions with the Industrial Revolution and later times. There were certainly built-in cautions and criticisms to be found in earlier utopian writings. However, IMHO it wasn't until the 19th century that tensions / conflicts between social and technological trends made it common for common folk to look toward the future and wonder 'WTF is this leading to?!?'
 
Christian allegories, such as Piers Plowman and the Pilgrim's Progress turn visions of earthly or sensual happiness into snares and delusions. Worldly pleasures or hope of peace on earth prove to be aspects of Vanity Fair. Dystopias tended to be situated in Hell but were certainly intended as warnings of the future we could look forward to! :cry:
 
I remember having "The World of the Future" series (in Norwegian) in the 70s. I think I still got them stored somewhere.

View attachment 4739
The picture reminds me of a couple of Post-Apocalyptic books from the 1930's called When Worlds Collide/After Worlds Collide. Excellent story in two books.

Also, since dystopias were mentioned, this program from the BBC came to mind. An Irish friend living in London told me about it, but it didn't do me a lot of good with no transcript. Bad hearing. Later, this gentleman dug up the transcript and emailed it me. The title of the program is Very British Dystopias. I hope it will be interesting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b02x5c9z
 
I'm sorry I asked now, not because Enola's answer was poor, it was excellent and comprehensive, but it does seem to operate without any hope. If we simply accept things slide into a selfish mess in our inevitable future, doesn't that excuse an awful lot of bad behaviour and propagate a belief that nothing beyond feeding the self matters?

The 20thC utopian ideals came to grief, and you'd be pressed to find any new ones in this century, but does that mean we just stop trying? Do we give up on trusting humanity to improve because it has failed so often before? It's getting so bad that anyone who claims we can move to a better life here (rather than an afterlife there) is labelled a naïve idiot, and existence is more like juggling various drawbacks and outright dangers to make sure we're ahead for a while.

Hmm. You know, I'm not so sure the idea is dead. I think it may be a generational thing. Different generations perceive the word differently, have different experiences. Perhaps the size of the generation may matter, too. Look at the baby boomers, they were a large enough group to make significant changes to the culture, and they were very utopian. The generations since have been smaller (like mine and probably yours, for instance.) Growing up, there was no sense among my peers of being able to change the world in our favor, really.

However, my older children are millennials, another huge generational group, and I do see a significant amount of hope and ambition among them and their friends. They grew up when it was cool to be nerdy, they do engineering projects for fun, they're learning to build robots because they think this will save us all. Whether this will pan out, who knows, but I know for sure they are nowhere near as cynical and hopeless as my generation was at that age. I think the utopian urge is still there.

Anyway, I'm no expert. I really just wanted an excuse to post my favorite song about the space age.
I.G.Y. referring,of course, to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Geophysical_Year
 
I like your optimism.
 
I'm not convinced the Baby Boomers were really utopian.

They had the Summer of Love but that fizzled out pretty fast. Then they knuckled down to making the 80's happen.

Now they're the generation most likely to vote Tory and seem largely concerned with hanging on to the wealth they've accumulated.

As for Millennials, they seem obsessed with materialism and celebrity. (The whole hipster thing is about defining yourself by what you consume.)
 
Hmm. You know, I'm not so sure the idea is dead. I think it may be a generational thing. Different generations perceive the word differently, have different experiences. Perhaps the size of the generation may matter, too. Look at the baby boomers, they were a large enough group to make significant changes to the culture, and they were very utopian. ...

I agree about generational settings, events, and experiences shaping things. On the other hand:

(1) IMHO it's risky and misleading to go too far in framing things with respect to generational categories / boundaries per se.

(2) As a baby boomer myself, I'd have to take issue with the claim my generation (overall; as some sort of coherent cohort) were very 'utopian' - at least in the sense of commitment to a formal vision of 'Utopia' of the sort this thread initially emphasized.

The dominant theme of the Sixties was critical re-evaluation of norms / traditions, leading to individual responses ranging from tweaking conventions through personal 'liberations' (of various types) to outright 'dropping out'.

A large portion of my generation never got 'countercultural' at all, and were unaffected beyond toying with (e.g.) countercultural hairstyles, apparel, slogans, etc., etc., as one would with any fads or fashions.

Only a subset embraced the emerging possibilities and committed themselves to changing themselves and their lives via personal preferences, stances, actions, affiliations, etc.

An even smaller sub-subset took this personal commitment to the point of dropping out of mainstream society entirely.

Even this smaller sub-subset was reasonably subdivided into two distinguishable sub-sub-subsets:

(a) those who dropped out to 'do his / her own thing' in (or perhaps atop) the context of the mainstream society, versus ...

(b) those who dropped out with specific intentions of crafting their own (hopefully 'better') version of a society, no matter how small or localized.

It was therefore a small minority - the members of this last sub-sub-subset (b) - who committed themselves to any 'utopia' of the classic / formal variety.

The unavoidable tension between the type (a) individualistic 'do your own thing' attitude and the type (b) collectively-oriented 'make ourselves a better world' attitude goes a long way toward explaining why the Sixties didn't induce a 'Singularity'.

Type (a) dropouts didn't necessarily buy into the beliefs or projects of the type (b) - i.e., truly 'utopian' - dropouts. Type (b) dropouts didn't stand much chance of success unless they could individually subordinate themselves to collective ideals and goals.
 
I wonder if those ideal future guides kids used to get as entertainment in the 1960s and 70s were as much because the older generation who made them had faith in the children (because they believed the children were the future, teach them well and let them lead the way, etc) and their ability to live in such a world as much as the kids did in looking forward to them? Is that something we've lost? Or is the generation gap forever with us anyway?
 
The generation coming up are screwed because of the reaction the sixties generation had to the more austere and disciplined forties/fifties.

Not wishing to be seen as 'draconian' they allowed a far too liberal generation to emerge. Now we are paying for this in the increased crime rates, the drug usage etc. And the apparent unwillingness of the people in power to deal with it.

The future will divide up into the folks with the power and the money who can arrange to live in 'gated' type communities, and the others who will have to do the best they can in the jungle.

There will be a cross-over band of people in the middle who will either fight their way into a better way of life or spend their time trying to destroy what the privileged have.

And it will only get worst if the population increase isn't stopped. Anyone who can't see this is really not thinking straight.

INT21
 
Has the vision of Utopia considerably changed overtime?

For me personally it has. From what once I thought was a communist resort it transformed into many different universes that I consider Utopia(n).

For example, is the Matrix universe a Utopia? Could be if you want all the corporal pleasures without having second thoughts on what the reality is (see Cypher).
Is Blade Runner universe a Utopia? Again, could be with all the atmospheric Japanese megacommercials.

Not entirely sure where I am heading with this but I think that the concept of Utopia has evolved into so much more complex and personalised vision nowadays.

Is this (to quote Rynner) bollocks or does this resonate with some of you?
 
Is Blade Runner universe a Utopia? Again, could be with all the atmospheric Japanese megacommercials.
I think it's more of a dystopia. Decaying cities, constant darkness and rain because the world's environment is messed up, cultural domination by China, use of replicants as slave labour, an all-pervasive police force...
 
Most science fiction movies set in the future feature a dystopia, very few detail a future where things have worked out fine. It was speculative media like books for children or TV shows like Tomorrow's World for adults (which you'll note isn't on anymore) that presented the upward curve of an improving future.
 
Utopia is something to long for. Dystopia is what we fear will come in the future. Some say we have become a dystopian society already. Do we have to move to an offworld colony to escape the dystopia in the future?


 
From Wiki I find..

...Citizens only do work which they enjoy and which is for the common good, leaving them with ample time for the cultivation of the arts and sciences...

This would appear to suggest that if you have an income (say the dole) and a dwelling place then you have the most important ingredients for a satisfactory life.

Maslow has a hierarchy of need, which I can't remember, but these three are high on the scale.

So the question becomes 'why do those who are provided with these first three essentials not settle into an easy existence as they are ideally situated to do so.

I suggest that many of them are intellectually incapable of doing so.

Instead they sink into boredom and this leads to alcohol or drug misuse. They also tent to have lots of kids they can't afford to look after properly.

From this it seems that the idea of a 'free' Utopia is false. A person can only be free if she/he is working or otherwise contributing positively to his/her society. And, most important, they are instinctively aware they are doing so.

INT21
 
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