Venezuela Next?

ramonmercado

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I disagree. I maintain that there is nothing in the UK that any objective person would describe as "poverty".

I do, however, believe that there are a lot of people who have made poor choices in their lives.

maximus otter
Well, lets agree to disagree on that or we could go on until the cows come home.

(Note to self: cut down on the non-Fortean postings.)
 
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Yossarian

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What is the Nordic model if not successful socialism?

One can argue that it's not "pure" socialism, but no "pure" capitalist society has ever existed either.
 

Yithian

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Could we drag this one back round to conspiracy related to U.S. covert and military intentions towards Venezuela, please?

Edit: some posts now deleted.
 
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Vardoger

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Scandinavian socialdemocracy is about 25% socialism and 75% capitalism.

Until 1983 the only broadcaster we had was a national broadcaster. From 1983 local radio stations was allowed and satellite TV stations like Sky Channel was allowed on cable TV. We got a conservative government in 1981 which eased the media restrictions.
 

ramonmercado

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Could we drag this one back round to conspiracy related to U.S. covert and military intentions towards Venezuela, please?
Scandinavian socialdemocracy is about 25% socialism and 75% capitalism.

Until 1983 the only broadcaster we had was a national broadcaster. From 1983 local radio stations was allowed and satellite TV stations like Sky Channel was allowed on cable TV. We got a conservative government in 1981 which eased the media restrictions.
Maybe we should all respect Yith's instructions above and stick to conspiracy related matters.
 

Vardoger

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Maybe we should all respect Yith's instructions above and stick to conspiracy related matters.
You don't say. I was just explaining the Nordic model of social democracy since it was asked about.
 

ramonmercado

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You don't say. I was just explaining the Nordic model of social democracy since it was asked about.
Nothing wrong with your post per se but Yith had already posted suggesting that we stay on topic. He is a Mod so so I had restrained myself from potential OT responses.
 

INT21

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So, back in 2002 we had..

..But much worse than that, Chavez has dared to sell oil to the Cubans, and refuse the United States the use of Venezuelan airspace for aircraft supplying 'Plan Colombia'...

Now we see the mess that Venezuela is in.

Yesterday, in response to Pres Trumps proposed sanctions on Iran, the Iranian leader asked 'what right does the USA have to tell Iran what to do ?'

What right indeed.

It's all coming to a showdown.

And Obama made a move towards normalising the Cuba situation. Promptly reversed by Trump.
Some suggest the current CEO is a spiteful old man who must have his own way. Guess the jury is still out on that one.


INT21
 

maximus otter

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...in response to Pres Trumps proposed sanctions on Iran, the Iranian leader asked 'what right does the USA have to tell Iran what to do ?'

What right indeed.
Indeed. Why should anyone feel it necessary to try and curb the nuclear ambitions of an insane Muslim theocracy, one of the world’s greatest sponsors of terror and a country which denies a neighbour’s right even to exist.

Just carry on with the Divine Obozo’s plan: wheelbarrow them some more Danegeld and hope that they eat us last.

maximus otter
 
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ramonmercado

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Indeed. Why should anyone feel it necessary to try and curb the nuclear ambitions of an insane Muslim theocracy, one of the world’s greatest sponsors of terror and a country which denies a neighbour’s right even to exist.

Just carry on with the divine Obozo’s plan: wheelbarrow them some more Danegeld and hope that they eat us last.

maximus otter
They don't have the bomb yet and they shouldn't get it. But they're not developing one at present and Trump's actions make it more likely they'll go back to their attempts. Supporting the Iranian opposition would be a much better idea. We saw the mass protests earlier this year, the Mullahs aren't as song as they appear to some. A mass airdrop of weapons when protests happen again would be useful.

While it would be a better world if it was entirely free of nuclear bombs it would be a safer one if NK, Pakistan, India and Israel also dumped their bombs

It's worth noting that the IAEA have not found Iran to be in breach of the agreement which is not just a US one but also involves the UK, France, Germany and the rest of the NATO allied countries. Are they all out of step? Trump is alone in NATO in these conspiratorial ambitions to stir things up.

It's worth noting though that the US meddling in Venezuela goes back to Dubya if not to Clinton and continued under The Blessed Obama.
 

INT21

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Ramonmercado,

..Supporting the Iranian opposition would be a much better idea...

..A mass airdrop of weapons when protests happen again would be useful...

I do hope you are joking. If not then God help the World.

Hasn't Syria and Libya taught you anything ?

Or, as you are apparently in Southern Ireland, the problems just over your border.

The US likes to play these dirty little games as it means they can sell more killing machines to whoever want to try and overthrow their government.

I mentioned somewhere else that I suspect Trump is trying to instigate a major conflict.

Come to think of it. America apparently needs all these guns they have as they expect their own government to rise against them.

Paranoia, anyone ?

INT21
 

ramonmercado

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Ramonmercado,

..Supporting the Iranian opposition would be a much better idea...

..A mass airdrop of weapons when protests happen again would be useful...

I do hope you are joking. If not then God help the World.

Hasn't Syria and Libya taught you anything ?

Or, as you are apparently in Southern Ireland, the problems just over your border.

The US likes to play these dirty little games as it means they can sell more killing machines to whoever want to try and overthrow their government.

I mentioned somewhere else that I suspect Trump is trying to instigate a major conflict.

Come to think of it. America apparently needs all these guns they have as they expect their own government to rise against them.

Paranoia, anyone ?

INT21
I'm joking about an indiscriminate airdrop of guns.

But Iran is a Theocracy, the dictatorship needs to go but change must come from within.

Anyway let's all try and discuss conspiracy against Venezuela on this Thread about conspiracies against Venezuela.
 

Kingsize Wombat

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Well, here's a couple of conspiratorial news regarding Venezuela:

Bolton seen holding notepad with words '5000 troops to Colombia'

The White House is not tamping down tensions after national security adviser John Bolton was seen Monday holding a yellow legal pad inscribed with the words "5000 troops to Colombia."
"As the President has said, all options are on the table," a White House spokesman said when asked for an explanation of the notes, which were seen during a briefing with reporters about new sanctions on Venezuela.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/28/politics/white-house-bolton-colombia/index.html

Russian passenger jet arrives in Venezuela, rumours swirl

Neither Nordwind nor the Venezuelan government immediately responded to a request to comment on why the jet had flown to Caracas.

Venezuelan social media was alive with theories - that it had brought mercenaries, was there to escort Maduro into exile, or was loading up with gold. None of those theories was based on solid evidence, but the feverish speculation was a testament to the atmosphere of uncertainty in the country as Maduro comes under unprecedented international pressure to step down.
https://www.smh.com.au/world/south-...-venezuela-rumours-swirl-20190130-p50uhc.html
 

Mythopoeika

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5000 troops isn't many.
 

ramonmercado

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5000 troops isn't many.
It depends on the type of troops, could be Rangers or other special forces.

Funny that the US, UK etc aren't demanding that Saudi Arabia or the other Gulf States hold democratic elections within eight days.
 

Mythopoeika

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It depends on the type of troops, could be Rangers or other special forces.

Funny that the US, UK etc aren't demanding that Saudi Arabia or the other Gulf States hold democratic elections within eight days.
The Venezuelans don't have leverage with an angry group of 1.5 billion people.
 

INT21

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You have to ask why Venezuela, with one of the buggest oil reserves in the world, can't sell it's oil to an oil hungry market.

Exactly what is blocking them ? And by whom was it put in place.

And why so many nations have jumped on the band wagon of the losing party in an election.

We can make guesses at the answers to that.

INT21.

I'm glad this isn't 'political' ;)
 

tastyintestines

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They nationalized the economy and created a weak fiat currency while disposing of an elected congress and senate and then faked an election to keep power. That is why almost the entire world is on the 'losers side.' You should check into it sometime.
 

INT21

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Ah yes, US hedgemony. well worth a look into.
 

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It's more a chavista thing. That was a pretty quick. You might want to check multiple sources.
 

INT21

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Could be another Syria in the making.

People will suffer, war pigs will get rich; nothing new there.
 

Vardoger

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Not impossible...

 

ramonmercado

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Trump getting more than a little peeved at Bolton and questing his judgment. It might also explain why he held back on Iran rather than bombing it like Bolton wanted.

Last winter, the ouster of Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro seemed a sure bet to President Trump, a quick foreign policy win at a time when other initiatives in Asia and the Middle East appeared stalled or headed in the wrong direction.

Then came spring, when Juan Guaidó, the opposition leader Trump had recognized as Venezuela’s legitimate president, called for the Venezuelan military to rise up and switch sides. But while the White House had received opposition assurances that many in the upper echelons of the security forces and government had pledged to flip, virtually none answered Guaidó’s call.

A frustrated Trump believed that national security adviser John Bolton and his director for Latin American policy, Mauricio Claver-Carone, “got played” by both the opposition and key Maduro officials, two senior administration officials said. As the president “chewed out the staff” in a meeting shortly after the April 30 failure, in the words of one former Trump official involved in Venezuela policy, he mused that he might need to get on the phone himself to get something done.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ory.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.27ba67941fee

The venality and corruption of some of Guaido’s supporters also raises questions,

What was supposed to be Guaido’s watershed moment has instead turned out to be a public-relations failure far worse than his quickly quelled attempted military coup, which MintPress News reported caused even the New York Times to describe Guaido as “deflated.”

What happened in Colombia appears to be so damning that not only is the Colombian intelligence service leaking documents exposing wrongdoing by Popular Will representatives appointed by Guaido, but the Organization of American States (OAS) — which is typically just as pro-opposition as the Colombian government — has called for an investigation.

In a tweet issued June 14 at 10:47 p.m. Venezuela time, Guaido called on his ambassador to Colombia — whom he had shut out of the aid event — to formally request an investigation by Colombian authorities, whose already-existing investigation is the reason the story came out in the first place. That was more than four hours after Secretary General of the OAS Luis Almagro called for an investigation that would clarify the “serious charges,” identify those responsible and effectuate accountability.

But Guaido had already been well aware of the charges, having dismissed his appointees who appear to be ringleaders of the embezzlement scheme. According to the report, he was contacted by the journalist who exposed the scandal 30 days before the story was published.

... There were earlier signs of excess and debauchery. One Popular Will representative was hospitalized and his assistant found dead after overdosing while taking drugs with prostitutes, although Senator Marco Rubio (R-FL) claims they were poisoned.


The inflated soldier count meant more funds for the organizers, who were charged with putting them up in hotel rooms. Guaido’s “army was small but at this point it had left a very bad impression in Cucuta. Prostitutes, alcohol, and violence. They demanded and demanded,” the report said.

They also left a bad taste in the mouth of the authorities. The Colombian government was supposed to pay for some of the hotels, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees was to cover the costs of others, while Guaido’s people were only going to pony up the cash for two of the seven hotels.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/popul...hreatens-juan-guaido-political-future/259283/
 

ramonmercado

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US now seizing food ship on way to Venezuela.

US Seizes Cargo Ship Trying to Deliver Food to Venezuela
Sanctions on Venezuela are expanding to a naval blockade
Jason Ditz Posted on August 7, 2019

The US continues to escalate its anti-Venezuela measures this week, having announced Monday night that sanctions have grown to an economic embargo, and now that appears to include a naval blockade.

Venezuelan Vice President Delcy Rodriguez announced on Wednesday that the United States had seized a cargo ship bound for Venezuela in the Panama Canal. The ship was carrying soy cakes for the production of food.

US officials as yet have not commented, but it’s not clear under what pretext they consider themselves allowed to seize a ship carrying food. The Panama Canal is no longer US territory in the first place, and seizing a food ship bound for Venezuela after spending most of 2019 claiming Venezuelans are starving and in need of food aid seems particularly spiteful.

Vice President Rodriguez condemned the move as “serious aggression,” and accused the Trump Administration of trying to impede Venezuela’s right to food.

https://news.antiwar.com/2019/08/07/us-seizes-cargo-ship-trying-to-deliver-food-to-venezuela/
 

Mythopoeika

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OK, that's wrong.
 

Vardoger

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OK, that's wrong.
Trump's a self-righteous asshole, but he's also influenced by the hawk John Bolton. I see no problems with them blocking weapons, but food is going too low.
 

INT21

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I understand that the USA did the same thing with non American shipping trying to take supplies directly to Porto Rico after the disaster.
 

maximus otter

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US Seizes Cargo Ship Trying to Deliver Food to Venezuela
a) Five minutes’ Googling fails to reveal any publication of this incident anywhere other than on antiwar.com and other sites reprinting antiwar.com

b) The source of this info is solely an announcement from the Venezuelan government.

c) The “foodstuff” mentioned is “soy cakes”. l wasn’t aware that these formed a part of the Venezuelan diet.

d) Wikipedia suggests that, globally, 98% of soy meal is used as animal food.

In short, this story reeks.

maximus otter
 

Yithian

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Trump's a self-righteous asshole, but he's also influenced by the hawk John Bolton. I see no problems with them blocking weapons, but food is going too low.
You may well be correct about Trump and Bolton, but can we please keep the discussion to the Conspiracy angle and away from personal political judgments.

Sorry and thanks.
 
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