War Crimes Scandal: Did The Army Cover Up Torture And Murder In The Middle East?

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
50,498
Reaction score
24,220
Points
284
Location
Eblana
This is worrying, it's not allegations by dodgy lawyers, it's from reports by Military Detectives

War crimes scandal: Army ‘covered up torture and child murder’ in the Middle East
SAS and Black Watch accused of breaking Geneva conventions

Evidence implicating British soldiers in the murder of children and the torture of civilians was covered up by military commanders, according to leaked documents that had been kept secret by the government.

Military detectives unearthed disturbing allegations that senior commanders had tried to hide war crimes by British troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, a year-long investigation by The Sunday Times and the BBC Panorama programme has established.

Evidence had been found of murders by an SAS soldier and deaths in custody, beatings, torture and degrading sexual abuse of detainees by members of the Black Watch. The military detectives also discovered allegations of the falsification of documents serious enough to merit prosecutions of senior officers.

One of the SAS’s most senior commanders was referred to prosecutors for attempting to pervert the course of justice.

The evidence emerged during two war crimes inquiries — Operation Northmoor for Afghanistan and the Iraq Historic Allegations Team — which were wound down in 2017 by the defence secretary at the time, Sir Michael Fallon, before reaching trial.

Investigators from the inquiries have expressed frustration that compelling evidence was swept aside for political reasons. “Key decisions were being taken out of our hands,” said one investigator. “There was more and more pressure coming from the Ministry of Defence to get cases closed as quickly as possible.”

Lord Macdonald, a former director of public prosecutions, has reviewed the evidence. He said: “It’s absolutely reprehensible for politicians to take it upon themselves to interfere in investigations into crimes this serious, and to close those investigations down before they’re complete.”

Panorama: War Crimes Scandal Exposed
BBC1, tomorrow (Monday 18 November) at 9pm


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/army-covered-up-torture-and-child-murder-bfdc5rsmw
 

Yithian

Parish Watch
Staff member
Joined
Oct 29, 2002
Messages
29,620
Reaction score
35,079
Points
309
Location
East of Suez
If the Independent Service Prosecuting Authority elected not to prosecute, then the cases were likely not strong enough.

If there is evidence that army investigators were misled, then this too should be sent to the ISPA.

I'm content to wait and see a review of their assessment, as after the Shiner affair I have very little faith in those investigating and attempting to prosecute serving and former soldiers.
 

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
50,498
Reaction score
24,220
Points
284
Location
Eblana
I'm content to wait and see a review of their assessment, as after the Shiner affair I have very little faith in those investigating and attempting to prosecute serving and former soldiers.
On this occasion the accusations are being made by the Military Detectives who investigated the cases, not by a corrupt lawyer. Some more about the affair, this time from the BBC.

But former detectives from IHAT and Operation Northmoor said Phil Shiner's actions were used as an excuse to close down criminal investigations. None of the cases investigated by IHAT or Operation Northmoor resulted in a prosecution.

One IHAT detective told Panorama: "The Ministry of Defence had no intention of prosecuting any soldier of whatever rank he was unless it was absolutely necessary, and they couldn't wriggle their way out of it."

Another former detective said the victims of war crimes had been badly let down: "I use the word disgusting. And I feel for the families because... they're not getting justice. How can you hold your head up as a British person?"

Panorama has re-examined the evidence in a number of alleged war crimes cases. One such case investigated by IHAT was the shooting of an Iraqi policeman by a British soldier on patrol in Basra in 2003.

Raid al-Mosawi was shot in an alleyway as he left his family home, and later died from his wounds. The incident was investigated at the time by the British soldier's commanding officer, Maj Christopher Suss-Francksen.

Within 24 hours, Maj Suss-Francksen concluded the shooting was lawful because the Iraqi police officer had fired first and the soldier had acted in self-defence.

His report said another British soldier had seen the shooting and confirmed the Iraqi had fired first.

IHAT detectives spent two years investigating the case and interviewed 80 British soldiers, including the soldier who had supposedly witnessed the shooting. But he told detectives he was not in the alleyway.

In his statement to IHAT, this soldier directly contradicted Maj Suss-Francksen's report: "This report is inaccurate and gives the impression that I was an eyewitness. This is not true." The soldier said he had only heard one shot, which suggested the policeman had not fired at all. This was confirmed by other witnesses interviewed by IHAT.

Operation Northmoor was set up by the government in 2014 and looked into 52 alleged illegal killings.

Its closure was announced by the government before Royal Military Police detectives even had a chance to interview the key Afghan witnesses.

One Northmoor detective said: "I wouldn't write off a job until I have spoken to both parties. If you are writing off a job and the only thing you have got is the British account, how is that an investigation? My view is that every one of those deaths deserved to be examined and due process of law to take place."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50419297
 

Cochise

Never give up, never surrender
Joined
Jun 17, 2011
Messages
5,956
Reaction score
7,119
Points
284
On this occasion the accusations are being made by the Military Detectives who investigated the cases, not by a corrupt lawyer. Some more about the affair, this time from the BBC.

But former detectives from IHAT and Operation Northmoor said Phil Shiner's actions were used as an excuse to close down criminal investigations. None of the cases investigated by IHAT or Operation Northmoor resulted in a prosecution.

One IHAT detective told Panorama: "The Ministry of Defence had no intention of prosecuting any soldier of whatever rank he was unless it was absolutely necessary, and they couldn't wriggle their way out of it."

Another former detective said the victims of war crimes had been badly let down: "I use the word disgusting. And I feel for the families because... they're not getting justice. How can you hold your head up as a British person?"

Panorama has re-examined the evidence in a number of alleged war crimes cases. One such case investigated by IHAT was the shooting of an Iraqi policeman by a British soldier on patrol in Basra in 2003.

Raid al-Mosawi was shot in an alleyway as he left his family home, and later died from his wounds. The incident was investigated at the time by the British soldier's commanding officer, Maj Christopher Suss-Francksen.

Within 24 hours, Maj Suss-Francksen concluded the shooting was lawful because the Iraqi police officer had fired first and the soldier had acted in self-defence.

His report said another British soldier had seen the shooting and confirmed the Iraqi had fired first.

IHAT detectives spent two years investigating the case and interviewed 80 British soldiers, including the soldier who had supposedly witnessed the shooting. But he told detectives he was not in the alleyway.

In his statement to IHAT, this soldier directly contradicted Maj Suss-Francksen's report: "This report is inaccurate and gives the impression that I was an eyewitness. This is not true." The soldier said he had only heard one shot, which suggested the policeman had not fired at all. This was confirmed by other witnesses interviewed by IHAT.

Operation Northmoor was set up by the government in 2014 and looked into 52 alleged illegal killings.

Its closure was announced by the government before Royal Military Police detectives even had a chance to interview the key Afghan witnesses.

One Northmoor detective said: "I wouldn't write off a job until I have spoken to both parties. If you are writing off a job and the only thing you have got is the British account, how is that an investigation? My view is that every one of those deaths deserved to be examined and due process of law to take place."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50419297
Both operations were closed down because the vast majority of the accusations were via disgraced solicitor Phil Shiner. Shades of the Carl Beech affair. Those accusations also will no doubt be picked up and dusted off again from time to time by people who will not accept the possibility they were misled.

Expecting total agreement between witnesses is naive. As anyone who has been involved in a car accident will know. There were 80 witnesses to this shooting, were there? Seems like a pretty public affair. Rather like the Kennedy assassination and we still have debate about that, including the number of shots fired.
 

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
50,498
Reaction score
24,220
Points
284
Location
Eblana
There were 80 witnesses to this shooting, were there? Seems like a pretty public affair. Rather like the Kennedy assassination and we still have debate about that, including the number of shots fired.
No, 80 witness statements were taken regarding the affair. It's not unusual for police to interview 80 or even hundreds of people regarding an alleged murder. I was asked to give a statement regarding a murder because I passed the house in which the killing took place on the night when it happened. The gardaí didn't think I witnessed the killing, they wanted to know what I actually saw on that night. That is standard police procedure.

Both operations were closed down because the vast majority of the accusations were via disgraced solicitor Phil Shiner. Shades of the Carl Beech affair. Those accusations also will no doubt be picked up and dusted off again from time to time by people who will not accept the possibility they were misled.
It's worth pointing out (for the third time) that these allegations come directly from the Military Detectives who directly killings, not from a corrupt lawyer.

As the lawyer involved in the previous allegations has been struck off and imprisoned it is unlikely that those accusations will be dusted off.

As one of the detectives said: "I wouldn't write off a job until I have spoken to both parties. If you are writing off a job and the only thing you have got is the British account, how is that an investigation? My view is that every one of those deaths deserved to be examined and due process of law to take place."

There are also many other cases involved including the killing of children. Give the programme a watch tonight and see what you think when it's set out in greater detail.

Panorama: War Crimes Scandal Exposed
BBC1, tomorrow (Monday 18 November) at 9pm
 

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
50,498
Reaction score
24,220
Points
284
Location
Eblana
A vid which is rather disturbing is at the link.

Panorama Investigation: War crimes scandal exposed
Operation Northmoor was set up in 2014 to examine allegations of executions by British Special Forces.
It had linked dozens of suspicious killings on night raids.

One of those included three children and a 20-year-old man who were killed by a British soldier in 2012 in the village of Loy Bagh in Afghanistan.
British detectives have now told Panorama that Special Forces tried to cover-up what happened to avoid being prosecuted for war crimes.
Read more: UK government and military accused of war crimes cover-up
You can watch 'War Crimes Scandal Exposed' on Monday 28th November on BBC One at 21:00 GMT.
  • 17 Nov 2019
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-50453227/panorama-investigation-war-crimes-scandal-exposed
 

Cochise

Never give up, never surrender
Joined
Jun 17, 2011
Messages
5,956
Reaction score
7,119
Points
284
I should make it clear I think the invasion of Iraq was illegal and we shouldn't have been there in the first place. But until Blair is in court it seems to me irrelevant to go after the grunts. I would never be a good soldier in the modern world , because I'd shoot first if i felt subject to deadly threat and ask questions after.

150 (maybe a bit more) years ago it was easier to tell who was the enemy - mostly they wore very brightly coloured uniforms declaring them as such.
 

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
50,498
Reaction score
24,220
Points
284
Location
Eblana
I should make it clear I think the invasion of Iraq was illegal and we shouldn't have been there in the first place. But until Blair is in court it seems to me irrelevant to go after the grunts. I would never be a good soldier in the modern world , because I'd shoot first if i felt subject to deadly threat and ask questions after.

150 (maybe a bit more) years ago it was easier to tell who was the enemy - mostly they wore very brightly coloured uniforms declaring them as such.
I think there are extreme cases which should be pursued. But the fog of war is a very real thing, I don't want to see anyone stitched up.
 

Shady

DEATHS Kitty
Joined
Apr 24, 2011
Messages
8,454
Reaction score
10,980
Points
284
I should make it clear I think the invasion of Iraq was illegal and we shouldn't have been there in the first place. But until Blair is in court it seems to me irrelevant to go after the grunts. I would never be a good soldier in the modern world , because I'd shoot first if i felt subject to deadly threat and ask questions after.

150 (maybe a bit more) years ago it was easier to tell who was the enemy - mostly they wore very brightly coloured uniforms declaring them as such.
Blair will probably never be bought to bear for his crimes, people like him get away with it. And we cannot say what we would do or what we would become in those situations some of the men had to face, and, as you said Cochise, and it is not easy to tell the enemy, unless he has a gun in your face, making a quick decision when your life is on the line cannot be easy even for trained men. I feel sorry for some of our troops, but there will always be bad uns, no matter where you go.
I hope they get the right ones and not fit up some just to get justice
 

michael59

Abominable Snowman
Joined
Aug 10, 2017
Messages
855
Reaction score
2,055
Points
134
It's not just British soldiers. Shady is right, there are examples of this happening all over the world.

It's very difficult to believe that "Jo Plumber" who lives next door could shoot to kill a woman or a child but, put in that situation, it does indeed happen. What worries/upsets me the most is when it's more than one or two people, sometimes whole villages of people are "executed" like that.
 

Graylien

As if!
Joined
Jul 31, 2004
Messages
4,441
Reaction score
3,195
Points
184
Location
Norwich.
Right. Anyone here actually live in the real world?

You get kids from broken homes or borstal going in the army coz there's a recession on, they have no qualifications, and they don't want to work in a factory being boring.

Give em guns, train 'em to kill, and send them somewhere extreme without even proper equipment to protect them. Of course, they're going to go rogue. Especially if they have a spot of PTSD from the terrible sights they've seen. Kids killed by bombs lying in the street with their guts hanging out. Friends with their legs blown off chucked back on to civvy street with only a bunch of charity do-gooders to look after them, and get them a shite council flat or bedsit, and think they're doing them a favour after all they've been through for Queen and Country, and a bunch of idiots going on peace marches and calling them war criminals, when actually they're just trying to help folks in their own way.

Jeez. OK, not on having a go at kids. But you find an actual terrorist? Who you're being paid to kill anyway? Of *course* you'll have a little bit of fun.

Next time you run into an ex serviceman begging for change on the street, take 'em down the pub and get them pissed. Quite an education, that!
 

Shady

DEATHS Kitty
Joined
Apr 24, 2011
Messages
8,454
Reaction score
10,980
Points
284
I always support the service men and women if i can, i believe it is appalling how they are treated when they get back, nowhere to live when others can find somewhere at the drop of a hat, i mean, by all means honour the dead soldiers, the ones who died to give us our freedoms, but for all that is holy, the live ones need us now
 

AlchoPwn

Public Service is my Motto.
Joined
Nov 2, 2017
Messages
2,451
Reaction score
3,759
Points
154
Their actions seem culturally appropriate for Afghanistan, and exactly the sort of thing the Afghans themselves do every day. Why the cultural double standard, that the enemy gets to routinely perform atrocities, but UK soldiers can't (assuming they are even guilty)? It all seems patently absurd. So they shot a few captured child soldiers? Did the UK Soldiers behead the kids on camera and display the video worldwide to show how tough they are? Well, you know who did...
 

Frideswide

Fortea Morgana :) PeteByrdie certificated Princess
Staff member
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
12,021
Reaction score
13,524
Points
284
Location
An Eochair
the Afghans themselves do every day
No, the Afghans don't. Any more than citizens of the USA behave like Jeffrey Epstein or those of the UK like Andrew Windsor.

Over generalisations don't help, please don't use them.

Frides
 

AlchoPwn

Public Service is my Motto.
Joined
Nov 2, 2017
Messages
2,451
Reaction score
3,759
Points
154
No, the Afghans don't. Any more than citizens of the USA behave like Jeffrey Epstein or those of the UK like Andrew Windsor. Over generalisations don't help, please don't use them. Frides
Yeah, Afghans don't commit atrocities on each other every day. They don't have a murder rate that is exactly double that of the USA. Just like the Afghans don't basically subsist on the money they make from selling opium and don't have a huge child sex industry that nobody ever says anything about because it would be culturally insensitive to the poor misunderstood Muslims. And sometimes cars just blow up and level a city block all on their own in Kabul and people don't get executed on roadsides there, they just commit suicide.
 

EnolaGaia

I knew the job was dangerous when I took it ...
Staff member
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
17,473
Reaction score
23,063
Points
309
Location
Out of Bounds
Yeah, Afghans don't commit atrocities on each other every day. They don't have a murder rate that is exactly double that of the USA. Just like the Afghans don't basically subsist on the money they make from selling opium and don't have a huge child sex industry that nobody ever says anything about because it would be culturally insensitive to the poor misunderstood Muslims. And sometimes cars just blow up and level a city block all on their own in Kabul and people don't get executed on roadsides there, they just commit suicide.
Nota bene: We both know what happens if you take another step along this tangential path of commentary. I respectfully suggest you heed the lady and refrain.
 

AlchoPwn

Public Service is my Motto.
Joined
Nov 2, 2017
Messages
2,451
Reaction score
3,759
Points
154
Nota bene: We both know what happens if you take another step along this tangential path of commentary. I respectfully suggest you heed the lady and refrain.
If people don't bait me with factually incorrect comments on subjects they are apparently very under-informed about, and act as spokespeople for the thought police, then there would be no need for me to put the lie to their statements. Have you or Frieswide ever been to Afghanistan? I have. Do either of you speak Arabic? I do. Now while my Pashto and Dari are not that great, they aren't non-existent, and I can certainly make sense of the script and I would say I am semi-fluent. When you try to dismiss my comments you are effectively dismissing my lived experience, and I take great offense at that. Allow me to point out that when the UK and the USA went into Afghanistan, it wasn't on false pretenses like when they were lied to and lured into Iraq. The Taliban were a real threat, and they are coming back. So don't tell me that the Afghans don't perform daily atrocities John Snow.
 

EnolaGaia

I knew the job was dangerous when I took it ...
Staff member
Joined
Jul 19, 2004
Messages
17,473
Reaction score
23,063
Points
309
Location
Out of Bounds
Chill ...

No one's refuting your specific point that similarly atrocious acts are perpetrated all too frequently by all too many parties in that part of the world.

You were building up a head of steam toward over-generalizing this point into a blanket condemnation of an entire population / nation / religious affiliation - a move that's brought down sanctions upon you in the past, and one which will most assuredly bring down sanctions again.
 

AlchoPwn

Public Service is my Motto.
Joined
Nov 2, 2017
Messages
2,451
Reaction score
3,759
Points
154
Chill ... No one's refuting your specific point that similarly atrocious acts are perpetrated all too frequently by all too many parties in that part of the world. You were building up a head of steam toward over-generalizing this point into a blanket condemnation of an entire population / nation / religious affiliation - a move that's brought down sanctions upon you in the past, and one which will most assuredly bring down sanctions again.
Really? You seriously think that religious terrorism is a general threat to all societies equally, without specific grading of such tendencies by region, ethnicity, and other similar factors? Or that there are no statistical variations in religious populations that make some of them a lot more likely to extremist violence than others? Or that there are no populations in the world where the vast majority of people think that religious terrorism and the hatred and destruction of particular religious and ethnic groups is a good and holy thing that should be promoted? Don't you think that when most people in a country think such things that we have an obligation to tell the truth and "generalize" about the prevailing attitudes in the region? How else can we talk about it? Go thru an electoral roll and rule people in and out by name? All language is an exercise in generalization, that too is an unavoidable fact. When we say that we have three red jellybeans, they aren't identical, so we in fact have 1 red jellybean and another and another, but we choose to generalise about them as a form of shorthand and we call that "numbers", but in fact it is a generalization, and without that generalization we couldn't have mathematics, and without mathematics we couldn't have science, and without science we couldn't have technology, and without technology we couldn't have computers and the internet and this conversation. Generalisations are a necessary part of our language,and we couldn't actually have a language without generalization because all the words we use to describe classes of objects would be impossible without generalizing.
 

Mouldy13

Devoted Cultist
Joined
Sep 26, 2006
Messages
186
Reaction score
339
Points
79
Back to the moot point, if British soldiers shot, tortured and generally mistreat civilians they should be court martialled and then take whatever punishment the court deems fit.

Soldiers know what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour, they receive lectures on the subject during training. If we are to hold true to our self appointed status of "best army in the world" etc etc then we have to be better than that, we have to maintain the highest standards, it would appear that once again we have failed to do so.
 

stu neville

Commissioner.
Staff member
Joined
Mar 9, 2002
Messages
11,824
Reaction score
4,966
Points
234
You seriously think that religious terrorism is a general threat to all societies equally, without specific grading of such tendencies by region, ethnicity, and other similar factors?
It's not a blanket, equal threat, no, but it is a present threat in many societies or groups of societies. Day to day, in terms of scale of ideology-based conflict you can't compare Syria with Denmark, for example, but both have fallen victim to it. Again, whilst "followers" of one faith are presently the major antagonists, they're not alone: even Buddhists have been suppressing members of others faiths (how in the hell they square that with their own central credo I have no idea.)

The issue we have with the direction in which your point was headed was the characterisation of an entire faith as aggressively seeking the destruction of others: this is a discussion we've had many, many times. The fact remains that the vast majority do not condone the violence at all - it can be argued that said society could make this clearer, but there are all manner of sociological issues that make it easier for them to pull the curtains, keep themselves to themselves and not make a fuss, but again you can extrapolate that across many or most societies.

So, whilst your point about the violence being far more pronounced in certain regions and with a certain antagonist is true, it's an unfair and inaccurate syllogism to characterise all followers of that faith as active participants or proponents of that action. Hence our intervention.
 

AlchoPwn

Public Service is my Motto.
Joined
Nov 2, 2017
Messages
2,451
Reaction score
3,759
Points
154
It's not a blanket, equal threat, no, but it is a present threat in many societies or groups of societies. Day to day, in terms of scale of ideology-based conflict you can't compare Syria with Denmark, for example, but both have fallen victim to it. Again, whilst "followers" of one faith are presently the major antagonists, they're not alone: even Buddhists have been suppressing members of others faiths (how in the hell they square that with their own central credo I have no idea.)
The Buddhists have a lot more reason than most to have an axe to grind with the "faith" in question. When the "faith" in question meets tolerance with intolerance, and has destroyed Buddhism's greatest library in an act of senseless violence, and when the adherents of that "faith" routinely rape the children of Buddhist families as if it is a religious duty, eventually even the patience of a saint will be tried too far. THAT is how it gets "squared" with the tenets of Buddhism, and I understand it, and I sympathise with the Buddhists. The "faith" in question doesn't understand the basis of morality, i.e. "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", and instead practices "do unto others, then run, and then squeal about how everyone else is bigoted when the retribution inevitably arrives". At some point the doctor needs to amputate the limb to save the patient if the rot runs too deep. How much damage needs to be done first tho?
The issue we have with the direction in which your point was headed was the characterisation of an entire faith as aggressively seeking the destruction of others: this is a discussion we've had many, many times. The fact remains that the vast majority do not condone the violence at all - it can be argued that said society could make this clearer, but there are all manner of sociological issues that make it easier for them to pull the curtains, keep themselves to themselves and not make a fuss, but again you can extrapolate that across many or most societies.
You make the claim that the vast majority do not condone violence at all, but the fact remains that their scripture teaches something quite different to this, and if you remain an adherent of a faith that unrepentantly preaches violence, and sexism, and pedophilia, and the virtues of slavery and the torture of non-believers, one must as how that isn't condoning violence? I don't see it that way. Not at all. And with the region in question routinely involved in violence and exporting violence, how can you make this claim? Claims need to be based on really solid evidence. Now the fact is, the Westboro Baptist Church is likely to hate me for my views and crow about my sinfulness when I die, but they are very unlikely to blow up my plane, or take me hostage, or decapitate me. Nobody will argue that the Westboro Baptists are about the worst Christians in the world... now do a comparison.
So, whilst your point about the violence being far more pronounced in certain regions and with a certain antagonist is true, it's an unfair and inaccurate syllogism to characterise all followers of that faith as active participants or proponents of that action. Hence our intervention.
If the faith in question contained moral people, they would view what has been going on for centuries without let-up and quit, and indeed a great many recently have,and more power to them. If their religion didn't routinely murder people for quitting, the number of people who would stay would be tiny. I have done a lot of work to help people quit this pernicious cult, but you are stuck worrying that someone is going to be offended when the streets are already painted in blood. You're behaving like a pacifist in 1936; but the writing is already on the wall if you have the courage to read it.
 

stu neville

Commissioner.
Staff member
Joined
Mar 9, 2002
Messages
11,824
Reaction score
4,966
Points
234
...you are stuck worrying that someone is going to be offended when the streets are already painted in blood. You're behaving like a pacifist in 1936; but the writing is already on the wall if you have the courage to read it.
I'm not stuck, nor am I worried about people taking offence in person or by proxy. What I'm doing is enforcing the agreed rules and tone of this board, which is my ultimate responsibility, and you're contravening them.

For that reason, and that reason alone, I'll ask you one more time to cease that line of argument. Your point has been made, let it rest there.
 

ramonmercado

CyberPunk
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
50,498
Reaction score
24,220
Points
284
Location
Eblana
New revelations. Senior officers were aware of what was going on.

Did UK Special Forces execute unarmed civilians?
By Matt Bardo & Hannah O'Grady BBC Panorama 4 hours ago

At the height of the war in Afghanistan in 2011, two senior officers from Special Forces met in a bar in Dorset to have a secret conversation. They feared some of the UK's most highly-trained troops had adopted a "deliberate policy" of illegally killing unarmed men. Evidence is now emerging that suggests they were right.

The two senior officers were thousands of miles from the dust and danger of Helmand province in Afghanistan. One had recently returned from the war where his troops reported their understanding that a policy of execution-style killings was being carried out by Special Forces. The other had been at headquarters, reading reports from the frontline with growing concern. They showed a sharp rise in the number of "enemies killed in action" (EKIA) by UK Special Forces.

After the conversation, a briefing note believed to have been written by one of the most senior members of UK Special Forces was passed up the chain of command. The message contained clear warnings for the highest levels of Special Forces and concluded that these "concerning" allegations merit "deeper investigation" to "at worst case put a stop to criminal behaviour".

The documents were released to solicitors Leigh Day, as part of an ongoing case at the High Court, which will rule on whether allegations of unlawful killing by UK Special Forces were investigated properly. The man bringing the case is Saifullah Ghareb Yar. He says that four members of his family were assassinated in the early hours of 16 February 2011.

It follows a BBC Panorama programme last year, which reported on the deaths. The programme worked with the Sunday Times Insight team to reveal evidence of a pattern of illegal killings by UK Special Forces. ...

You can watch Panorama, War Crimes Scandal Exposed on BBC iPlayer

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53597137
 

AlchoPwn

Public Service is my Motto.
Joined
Nov 2, 2017
Messages
2,451
Reaction score
3,759
Points
154
Did UK Special Forces execute unarmed civilians? By Matt Bardo & Hannah O'Grady BBC Panorama 4 hours ago https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-53597137
I hate to offer a reality check on this, but since when has any Muslim ever abided by any similar restrictions? It was standard for Saddam's troops to murder at will via death squads. The same goes for Assad. ISIS positively revelled in mass murder. The Mullahs in Tehran don't give a damn about human life, to the point where they rather like people to get trampled in stampedes, and much the same applies to the Saudi management of Mecca. The difference between an unarmed civilian and an armed irregular combatant can be entirely reduced to whether or not they reach for a gun, and if a soldier doesn't react in time to a sudden movement, it may cost them their lives. Islamic countries and irregular combatants do not respect or recognise these self-imposed civilized niceties of who they can or cannot shoot, and are more than happy to hold up these bizarre conventions as a means of making the countries fighting them harm their own best combatants. War is an inherently ugly business, where the rules of civilization are suspended because they must be, and imposing these restrictions on our own combatants without being able to impose similar rules on enemy combatants is a rank absurdity. This notion of war crimes suggests that there is a "rule of law" in a combat zone, when in fact what exists there is a violent anarchy, more often than not brought into being by irregular combatants. I know we sometimes put leaders in jail for war crimes, but who does that with the ordinary irregular combatants? Who is trying them for murder? I see this sort of court-case as a potentially self destructive form of hypocrisy that has its roots in a legal fantasy world where a soldier is also somehow fitting into the legal fiction of the "Reasonable Person" not committing war crimes. I think we need to get our heads around the notion that war is a time when the normal rules of social conduct are suspended. In most armies, a soldier has no right to disobey an officer's order in any case, even if they are being ordered to perform a war crime. The whole area is fraught, and not half as ethically obvious as the civilian population may wish to pretend. I hope that the laws come to adequately reflect this reality.
 

blessmycottonsocks

Justified & Ancient
Joined
Dec 22, 2014
Messages
4,444
Reaction score
7,091
Points
209
Location
Wessex and Mercia
From all accounts, it was pretty well par for the course for Taliban, Mujahideen and Islamic State combatants to dress in civvies.
The only time they wore military uniforms was when infiltrating Afghan army gatherings to kill unsuspecting Afghan soldiers.
They would be shooting at allied troops one moment and then, at the drop of a carefully concealed AK-47, become instant shepherds.

We should never lose sight of the fact that the real and deliberate atrocities against Afghan civilians were by the Taliban (and other groups of insurgents).

https://www.aihrc.org.af/media/files/Research Reports/english/Eng_anti_G.pdf
 

Yithian

Parish Watch
Staff member
Joined
Oct 29, 2002
Messages
29,620
Reaction score
35,079
Points
309
Location
East of Suez
I, for one, believe that we should commit evil actions because we are fighting people who commit evil actions. It's the only way to show them and the rest of the world that evil actions are unacceptable.

I also believe that we should only obey our own laws when we are fighting people who obey the laws we have given them. Clearly the laws were drafted with bad people in mind, not with us good folks who should be free to disregard them in the name of a higher cause.

Having now contributed in my personal capacity, I will leave the other moderators to take care of this thread, but I would caution that Stu Neville has made it quite clear that this will not be allowed to become another 'Whatabout the Muslims' thread of the kind that the two contributors above so love.

The thread has already been reported and will no doubt come to his attention before too very long.
 

stu neville

Commissioner.
Staff member
Joined
Mar 9, 2002
Messages
11,824
Reaction score
4,966
Points
234
It has. I will not be contributing to this thread further as I will be closely monitoring it. This is about our side of the street.
 

Frideswide

Fortea Morgana :) PeteByrdie certificated Princess
Staff member
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
12,021
Reaction score
13,524
Points
284
Location
An Eochair
since when has any Muslim ever abided by any similar restrictions?
Much/most of the UN blue helmets. And then there is relevant contingent of what are, according to this thread I think are being classed as our services.

This thread isn't an excuse to launch into religion-based ranting any more than it is an excuse to head off into politics.
 
Top