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Well? Did Courtney Kill Kurt?

.. I also remember reading that the Hole member was experimenting with some kind of visual flicker machine (I can't remember the name of it at the moment), a type once used by William Burroughs not long before her death .. can anyone shed any light on that please?.

Dream machine or something - yes, I remember reading about this and that it could apparetly induce suicidal thoughts in people who were already a little unstable. Wasn't KC also using this device?
 
Unless there was evidence that he had one of these machines in his house it would be fairly easy for people, if we believe it is a conspiracy, to plant these stories in the press. Say Love, or others coaxed to say the right things to the press, started saying he was using a Dream Machine in the weeks leading to his death how would anyone be able to disprove it.

Also, if we believe its use was a factor in two high profile deaths in the space of two months, would there not be countless other cases of Dream Machine users killing themselves if its effect on suicidal or unstable people was that powerful? The only suicides linked to a Dream Machine that I can see referenced online are... take a guess.
 
The best thing about the Kurt & Courtney doc is the appearance by Ant and Dec. Anyway, poor old Kurt was not exactly in the best mental state by the end of his life (or anywhere else in his life) so it's not a huge stretch to believe he ended it all himself. Reminds me of the Marilyn Monroe conspiracies, another desperately unhappy celebrity, two of many.
 
I'm surprised that Evan Dando's name hasn't been brought into this conversation yet .. he was the lead singer of The Lemonheads and pictures of him and Courtney in bed next to each other were published in Select Magazine ... Kurt had already held up a picture of Evan on stage at this point but with no verbal explanation ... I gifted my copy of the famous cover mascara looking Kurt mag to a collector friend of mine including the next issue of the magazine that had an insert apologising to Courtney for .. for ... IMO, she had a fling with Evan and Kurt couldn't handle it.

in the mean time ..

I loved the Lemonheads..."It's a shame about Ray"! Now I didn't know that about Evan.
 
Evan was a pretty heavy heroin user too in his day. He survived, though, even if his career didn't so much.
 
And in reading the IMDB boards I've discovered something quite chilling hidden in the film. During the interview with El Duce, lead singer of sex-slave band The Mentors, at his farm you can clearly hear a muffled female voice shouting "Help us!"... Interview is available on YouTube, screams are at 2:56.

:eek:

That is chilling actually. You can see the look on his face where he's thinking "oh shit" then does a theatrical growl to break the awkwardness.
 
That is chilling actually. You can see the look on his face where he's thinking "oh shit" then does a theatrical growl to break the awkwardness.

I know. I'd love to see if Broomfield has ever said anything more about that interview.
 
Just rewatched "Kurt & Courtney".
And in reading the IMDB boards I've discovered something quite chilling hidden in the film. During the interview with El Duce, lead singer of sex-slave band The Mentors, at his farm you can clearly hear a muffled female voice shouting "Help us!"... Interview is available on YouTube, screams are at 2:56.

:eek:

That is really quite unnerving. :(
 
Intriguingly Nick Broomfield's most recent project is about an LA based serial killer who lured pristitutes off the street and tortured and killed them.

Might tweet him and see if he is aware of this moment in one of his old films.
 
Nick Broomfield's latest about the LA serial killer is a much better doc than K&C, but it's about as depressing when it comes to a portrait of human behaviour.
 
Wasn't there mention that Kurt was involved with Michael Stipe whilst he was married to Courtney (they were friends anyway, and Stipe has subsequently alluded to an affair with Courtney's full knoweldge)?

I hadn't heard that one! :eek: Now that would have been an odd couple!
 
Yes of course, the shotgun finished him. What I mean is that the amount of heroin in his system was deemed enough to have done him in anyway.

I've never done heroin, is it an instant high. It mentions in K&C that in response to the clams he'd have been too fucked to lift a shotgun that he would realistically have had about a minute where he would have been able to. My question would be if you plan to shoot yourself then why bother with the heroin if you only have 60 seconds to enjoy it. If it is that fast acting anyway.


By all accounts not instant, it just needs to hit the brain, so it will very quick under a minute. . It would also depend on the amount, quality and his tolerance, so impossible to say without an unbiased autopsy. Opiate addicts often just do enough to keep themselves functioning, so if he'd had a small amount he could have done most things.

None of the deaths seem overly suspcious. Kurt had mental health and pain issues as well as heroin addiction, Kristen Pfaff heroin addict. The base jumper guy - he was a base jumper. All these folk were involved in very high risk activities.
 
Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that one of the too many documentaries had someone close to him - I forget who - claiming the recurring pain was an invention, an odd joke to string interviewers along.
 
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I was a Nirvana fan and admired Kurt, but I find myself more fascinated (and I know that's morbid) with Layne Stayley's decline, disappearance from view and final demise. Both were heroes to my generation of rock fans, but Layne's final years - with sightings, odd nocturnal photos, radio call-ins and the forlorn hope of a recovery - seem more enigmatic than Kurt's fast and unpleasant exit, yet there's little appetite for raking over his later life outside a group of very devoted fans. Layne's comments near the end on what heroin had done to him could also not have been more chilling. My horrid curiosity aside, I wish they were both with us today and making music that hit the chords we needed when we were young.
 
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Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that one of the too many documentaries had someone close to him - I forget who - claiming the recurring pain was an invention, an odd joke to string interviewers along.


I can't find anything on the net that illustrates this, do you remember who it was Yith?
 
I was a Nirvana fan and admired Kurt, but I find myself more fascinated (and I know that's morbid) with Layne Stayley's decline, disappearance from view and final demise. Both were heroes to my generation of rock fans, but Layne's final years - with sightings, odd nocturnal photos, radio call-ins and the forlorn hope of a recovery - seem more enigmatic than Kurt's fast and unpleasant exit, yet there's little appetite for raking over his later life outside a group of very devoted fans. Layne's comments near the end on what heroin had done to him could also not have been more chilling. My horrid curiosity aside, I wish they were both with us today and making music that hit the chords we needed when we were young.

The final demise of Layne Stayley is horrible. I've read interviews from those close to him at the end and the eventual manner of his exit and it is horrendous.

I've often wondered what kind of music Nirvana would be making if they were around now. Hypothetically, imagining he had left Love and refocused on the music I wonder if Grohl's Foo Fighters style would have stated to come through more. I get the impression that had he lived Cobain would likely have left Nirvana anyway and gone solo releasing critically acclaimed but commercially unloved music. I really don't see any scenario where they would have ended up down the U2 or Muse route of being high-profile stadium rockers.
 
I've often wondered what kind of music Nirvana would be making if they were around now. Hypothetically, imagining he had left Love and refocused on the music I wonder if Grohl's Foo Fighters style would have stated to come through more. I get the impression that had he lived Cobain would likely have left Nirvana anyway and gone solo releasing critically acclaimed but commercially unloved music. I really don't see any scenario where they would have ended up down the U2 or Muse route of being high-profile stadium rockers.

I guess it really would have depended on how/if he had sorted out his problems.

From many accounts, Cobain desperately wanted to "sit at the cool table" - you know, the one with the cranky "artistes" who disapprove of almost everything - and of course he could never make it. He was too earnest, too good of a musician and eventually too successful. Even The Melvins whom he idolized threw him over. Personally, I think this had to do with insecurity and envy on the part of other musicians, but it seems this never really occured to Cobain - he even references this rejection somewhat in his suicide note.

This to me indicates a major part of Cobain's basic personality - his self-image and self-esteem were so low that he couldn't appreciate his own talent and looked for approval in places he could never get it. He also apparently suffered a bad case of imposter syndrome, much like Janis Joplin. Also, like Joplin, (IMO) much of the grit in his music came from that inner suffering.

The direction he might have taken had he lived, I think, would have been heavily dependent on how he dealt with those issues. And the drug use, of course. - but I think his mental issues drove his drug addiction anyway.
From the beginning of his fame, he seemed like the type who wouldn't be long for the world. This isn't me rewriting history, either - I remember thinking this at the time they hit it big, and it hadn't been too long before that the singer from Mother Love Bone had died from a heroin overdose, so the grunge era had a aura of death hanging over it before it even really began.

Whatever the case, I can't imagine he would have would have turned to arena rock either - if he had, it would have only been as an ironic joke. I'm not even sure how far he would have gone without the rest of Nirvana or even the support of his wife (loathed as she may have been) they did add a great deal to the music and seemed to give him a focus he might have lacked on his own.
 
From what I can tell, Novoselic and Grohl were a hugely stabilising influence on him - in terms of the music and the band, they performed the same function as Bruce and Baker did for Clapton, a kind of "Ok, let's get these tracks down first and then you can have the gak and the scotch.." tempered with a shed-loads of reassurances that actually, that sounds fine, stop stressing about it.

To be honest I doubt Nirvana would have lasted much longer had Kurt not bought the farm when he did. I know Grohl has said that much as he liked being in the band, and is proud of what they turned out, left to his own devices he'd soon enough become the Foo Fighters.
 
From what I can tell, Novoselic and Grohl were a hugely stabilising influence on him - in terms of the music and the band, they performed the same function as Bruce and Baker did for Clapton, a kind of "Ok, let's get these tracks down first and then you can have the gak and the scotch.." tempered with a shed-loads of reassurances that actually, that sounds fine, stop stressing about it.

To be honest I doubt Nirvana would have lasted much longer had Kurt not bought the farm when he did. I know Grohl has said that much as he liked being in the band, and is proud of what they turned out, left to his own devices he'd soon enough become the Foo Fighters.
I dunno about the calming influence .. I'd like to think that was the case but I remember watching a short Nirvana talkie clip on MTV at the time with all three of them blatantly 'gouching out' on heroin (nodding off mid sentence and with pin pricks for pupils) and encouraging viewers not to buy Nevermind but to steal it instead. If anything, I think they probably enjoyed the anarchy Kurt was creating. I liked the Foo Fighters but they never really had that nihilistic sound that Nirvana had, they were more accomplished and polished with there sound but were less angry and more rock and roll. I think that Nirvana and The Prodigy were the only two bands in the 90's that were 'down with the kids' so to speak.
 
... it hadn't been too long before that the singer from Mother Love Bone had died from a heroin overdose, so the grunge era had a aura of death hanging over it before it even really began.

Andrew Wood.

I listened to Pearl Jam, Alice in Chains and Soundgarden at the time, but Mother Love Bone was just a name I'd heard in connection. It's funny to thing that pre-Internet you had to patch together a mental band-biography from liner notes, magazine articles and knowledgeable friends. Having listened to their music in the years since, I like it a lot - like a stepping stone between 70s-revival rock and grunge. It's a shame about Wood as they musically swaggered, strutted and throbbed with life. Blind Melon were probably my favourite of the era - and we know how that story ended, too.
 
I shamefully didn't know much about Layne Staley even though I've enjoyed Alice in Chains music for many years. Having read this thread I'm now reading about his life and death. Very sad but also fascinating.
 
I dunno about the calming influence .. I'd like to think that was the case but I remember watching a short Nirvana talkie clip on MTV at the time with all three of them blatantly 'gouching out' on heroin (nodding off mid sentence and with pin pricks for pupils) and encouraging viewers not to buy Nevermind but to steal it instead. If anything, I think they probably enjoyed the anarchy Kurt was creating. I liked the Foo Fighters but they never really had that nihilistic sound that Nirvana had, they were more accomplished and polished with there sound but were less angry and more rock and roll. I think that Nirvana and The Prodigy were the only two bands in the 90's that were 'down with the kids' so to speak.

As much as the Foo Fighters have the killer riffs and whatnot, there's a real self-pity to their lyrics, and even sound to an extent, that seems grounded in what Nirvana did, I don't think they're a million miles away (well, obviously they wouldn't be, but you know what I mean). What they don't have so much is the heavy streak of self-destruction, so they're a bit more corporate in that way, something I couldn't imagine Kurt being, or resisting at least. Which is why I doubt he was ever going to be long for the world he found himself stuck in.

The lead singer of Blind Melon died of an overdose, too, didn't he? One hit record and that was it.
 
I dunno about the calming influence .. I'd like to think that was the case but I remember watching a short Nirvana talkie clip on MTV at the time with all three of them blatantly 'gouching out' on heroin (nodding off mid sentence and with pin pricks for pupils) and encouraging viewers not to buy Nevermind but to steal it instead.

Yeah - I'm pretty sure that Novoselic was a seriously hardcore alcoholic at this stage as well. I don't think his bandmates were particularly good influences as such, although they don't seem to have had the melancholy or self-destructive streak that afflicted Cobain.
 
As much as the Foo Fighters have the killer riffs and whatnot, there's a real self-pity to their lyrics, and even sound to an extent, that seems grounded in what Nirvana did, I don't think they're a million miles away (well, obviously they wouldn't be, but you know what I mean). What they don't have so much is the heavy streak of self-destruction, so they're a bit more corporate in that way, something I couldn't imagine Kurt being, or resisting at least. Which is why I doubt he was ever going to be long for the world he found himself stuck in.

The lead singer of Blind Melon died of an overdose, too, didn't he? One hit record and that was it.

Yup.

Their self-titled first album is great.
Their second, Soup, is a masterpiece.
Even the last contemporary release - a collection of B-sides and outtakes entitled Nico is good.

They weren't around long enough to go bad.
 
From what I can tell, Novoselic and Grohl were a hugely stabilising influence on him - in terms of the music and the band, they performed the same function as Bruce and Baker did for Clapton, a kind of "Ok, let's get these tracks down first and then you can have the gak and the scotch.." tempered with a shed-loads of reassurances that actually, that sounds fine, stop stressing about it...
Probably should clarify: I'm not suggesting that Grohl and Novoselic were abstemious in the slightest - but, as with Bruce and Baker, they were together enough to work when they had to, and to stick at it to get it done. Cobain, like Clapton at his nadir, was prone to just saying "Fuck it" and heading for the substances as soon as he got a bit bored or fidgety. When the tracks were down, or the set was played, though, the other two were just as prone to the hedonism. That's what I mean about stabilising - if they were equally flaky, we'd probably have never heard of Nirvana.
 
As much as the Foo Fighters have the killer riffs and whatnot, there's a real self-pity to their lyrics, and even sound to an extent, that seems grounded in what Nirvana did, I don't think they're a million miles away (well, obviously they wouldn't be, but you know what I mean). What they don't have so much is the heavy streak of self-destruction, so they're a bit more corporate in that way, something I couldn't imagine Kurt being, or resisting at least. Which is why I doubt he was ever going to be long for the world he found himself stuck in.

The lead singer of Blind Melon died of an overdose, too, didn't he? One hit record and that was it.

Taylor Hawkins had a good crack at it...
 
Slightly off-topic, but a slightly Fortean twist in my musical life is that I seem to be the only person in the world who doesn't 'get' Foo Fighters.

The elements are all there, I should love them. But they bore me to tears.

The extra weird bit is that I really, really like Dave Grohl. His drumming is second only to John Bonham in my book, and I love pretty much every other project he's been involved in (Them Crooked Vultures, Probot, Teenage Time Killers, Juliette & The Licks, QOTSA......etc) but I just find FF to be be..well....just....too.... lightweight.

Maybe I'm just being awkward.
 
Slightly off-topic, but a slightly Fortean twist in my musical life is that I seem to be the only person in the world who doesn't 'get' Foo Fighters.

The elements are all there, I should love them. But they bore me to tears.

The extra weird bit is that I really, really like Dave Grohl. His drumming is second only to John Bonham in my book, and I love pretty much every other project he's been involved in (Them Crooked Vultures, Probot, Teenage Time Killers, Juliette & The Licks, QOTSA......etc) but I just find FF to be be..well....just....too.... lightweight.

Maybe I'm just being awkward.

I'm glad its not just me!! I can't stand Foo Fighters I find them boring and theres something about Grohl as front man that just annoys me - no real reason why!
 
I think comparing the Foo Fighters to Nirvana is a bit like comparing The Phantom Menace to Star Wars .. they ticked all the right boxes but were ultimately never going to be as exciting as Nirvana. That time had already passed. At least they weren't Dire Straits bad.
 
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