What Does It Mean to Be a 'Fortean' ?

[Anonymous]

My constant problem with the FT and especially the BB is that it all often seems very woolly. Far too much about 'community' (too polite) and far too little about clear, unbiased, thinking and debate. Sites like 'Something Awful' and 'Straight Dope' work really well because people are allowed to be rude. These sites end up being peer moderated.

IT'S JUST LIKE

Isn't a 'Fortean' essentially agnostic; less interested in drawing conclusions and more interested, much more interested, in looking at the way in which stories are told - and the patterns and similarities between the stories people tell ?

For example - earlier this year I argued with a member who was claiming to have been bothered by aliens during childhood. My interest was that the tale seemed to have many generic, social and, perhaps, (one might say) Freudian aspects. I'm firmly of the opinion that the response to such (a generic) story telling should be:

a/ to try to find out exactly what the person actually believes.

b/ to find out why a person might believe or say such things.

c/ to perhaps enable that person to realise other aspects and influences which might affect such thinking.

I'm fairly certain that I was trying to be 'fortean'. But asking questions can seem rude.

Of course he hadn't met aliens. But it should have been interesting to know why he thought that he had.

DRAWING CONCLUSIONS

I had the impression that this site wasn't pulling together the various similarities between aspects of different threads. For example - much that was said by the person who was claiming to have been bothered by aliens ... was actually very similar to aspects of a 'dreams' thread which was running at the same time.

I always had the hope that this site would eclipse the magazine (which frankly just seems like a commercial venture to me - going over and again with re tellings of the same stories). I always had the hope that some sort of perspective would emerge. So far I have the feeling that the magazine (and this bb) is going around and around in circles. Never getting any closer to establishing the patterns and trends and similiarities between different apparent perspectives. Never really getting any closer to establishing what a fortean perspective might be.

So what does it mean to be a Fortean?

 

[Anonymous]

I might have agreed with some of your points but the sloppy thinking that leads to a statement like

Sites like 'Something Awful' and 'Straight Dope' work really well because people are allowed to be rude.

means that the rest of your arguments lose a great deal of credibility.

There are places on the web where the fluffy set can go and be fluffy, and places where the rude can go to be rude.

This place has the middle ground.

Many of the fluffy are keeping their posting extremes off this site and on somewhere else at the moment - and I'm thanking them for their courtesy in keeping the place more open to everyone than it used to be. They haven't gone anywhere of course and there's no reason they should - only the most extreme posts and threads seemt o have moved on.

"Wooly" is a process as well as an end product. Barking at people and saying you want more rudeness is unlikely to de-fluff anything.

Have you noticed your acerbic coments leading to a revolution in thinking amongst other board members? If you haven't then maybe you could usefully rethink either your stated aims or your chosen methods.

 

[PeniG]

Of course he hadn't met aliens.
So what does it mean to be a Fortean?

One thing it means is not saying "of course."

A message board is a social entity. It has to be organized in some fashion. Not everyone on the board will use it in the same way. We all have to deal with these factors in our own ways.

If your particular interest is the similarities between phenomena which are categorized as if they were different, then one way to draw attention to that is to consistently post links between threads which seem to you to be mutually relevant. Since almost the first point Fort makes in *The Book of the Damned* is that categories are artificial and bleed into each other in nature, this is a very Fortean way to handle material, and no one will mind. It is as valid to say "we'll never understand sleep paralysis until we understand alien abduction" as it is to say "we'll never understand alien abduction until we understand sleep paralysis."

We are not responsible for what anyone else on the board thinks. We are responsible for our own behavior. Sort things out for yourself, and everything else will fall into place, more or less, well enough for you to get on with.

Be generous, and don't take anything too seriously. That's Fortean, too.

 

[Soong2]

We are

And upon this night of all nights, when the dusk turns to dew and the eve of Christmas is just a bare few moments away.... What shall we say, that it was good to be. Good, so good. To be FORTEAN!

 

[Anonymous]

Have you noticed your acerbic coments leading to a revolution in thinking amongst other board members? If you haven't then maybe you could usefully rethink either your stated aims or your chosen methods.

Nope. Doesn't mean that I'm right or wrong though. I don't have either methods or aims. This is not a political mission.

Many of the fluffy are keeping their posting extremes off this site and on somewhere else at the moment - and I'm thanking them for their courtesy in keeping the place more open to everyone than it used to be. They haven't gone anywhere of course and there's no reason they should - only the most extreme posts and threads seemt o have moved on.

This site (and the magazine) is far more 'fluffy' than it used to be. IMO.

This place has the middle ground

Why do you think that? I've never seen the fortean perspective as a middle ground. Just different. I certainly don't see it as being a point between sceptics and believers. Actually - I think this is the problem with the FT. It seems to end up being that middle ground.

 

[Anonymous]

Impudent?

What Alb is probably trying to say is that, if only everybody else on the FTMB would agree with Alb, see things his way, what a great place this would be.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not looking for an argument. Nor am I seeking friends. What I'm asking is what does fortean mean and how can the website useful help to develop an understanding of that meaning. The magazine certainly doesn't do it. IMO. Though claims the name.

I'll try to explain what I mean about this website: I'm suggesting, for example, that posts should be moderated (peer moderated) for being unfortean - not because they seem anti - community.

This isn't a community. Nor should it be IMO. It should be more like a cross between a library and a meeting.

 

[Anonymous]

What Alb is probably trying to say is that, if only everybody else on the FTMB would agree with Alb, see things his way, what a great place this would be.

Nope. Not saying that.

What does fortean mean to you? Have you ever tried to define it. Go on, have a go.

 

[Soong2]

...like a cross between a library and a meeting.

Sounds like the kind of place where a community might spring up.

 

[Bullseye]

What does fortean mean to you? Have you ever tried to define it. Go on, have a go.

To be open minded about things,examine them,form your own opinions but not force them on others?.

 

[Anonymous]

To be open minded about things,examine them,form your own opinions but not force them on others?.

I don't think that I agree with that. As soon as you form an opinion - then you are either a sceptic or a believer. On a per case basis.

This is one of the reasons why I believe that there is no such thing (could be no such thing) as a fortean perspective. Only a fortean analysis to be applied, perhaps.

Surely it's a philosophical debate. Otherwise this is just another place for talking about UFOs, ghosts, science etc.

 

[Soong2]

Whatever

8)

 

[Anonymous]

What Alb is probably trying to say is that, if only everybody else on the FTMB would agree with Alb, see things his way, what a great place this would be.

Nope. Not saying that.

What does fortean mean to you? Have you ever tried to define it. Go on, have a go.

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood the example of possible alien visitation you gave, where, I seem to remember you pursued your own theory to the point where you seemed to be demanding that the member relating childhood experiences of possible alien encounters admit to being delusional.

A bit orff, old chap.

Forteanism? Taking the position that what ever the experts and the overly opinionated might say, the World will continue to exhibit evidence that it is wired differently and is more strange than we can possibly know.

Neither an out and out fluffy believer, nor a sklerotic skeptic be.

 

[Bullseye]

[quote="alb"I don't think that I agree with that. As soon as you form an opinion - then you are either a sceptic or a believer. [/quote]

On many topics I think "this could well be true,however untill I have absolute proof I will TRY to remain open minded".This is MY opinion on many things.

 

[Anonymous]

OT/

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood the example of possible alien visitation you gave, where, I seem to remember you pursued your own theory to the point where you seemed to be demanding that the member relating childhood experiences of possible alien encounters admit to being delusional.

You aren't sorry.

The point I was making at the time was very much in line with the point of view which many articles in the FT would have taken over the past 10 or 15 years. Though you are deliberately over simplyfying the example, I was asking the same questions.

Is 'delusional' a pejorative term? I don't think so. It is certainly less pejorative than 'liar'.

If someone came here and told lies - which you knew to be lies. Then would you be prepared to say 'liar'? Or would that go against the community?

I think I'm making a fair point.

 

[Anonymous]

The Quality of Mercy is not Strain'd

OT/

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood the example of possible alien visitation you gave, where, I seem to remember you pursued your own theory to the point where you seemed to be demanding that the member relating childhood experiences of possible alien encounters admit to being delusional.

You aren't sorry.

The point I was making at the time was very much in line with the point of view which many articles in the FT would have taken over the past 10 or 15 years. Though you are deliberately over simplyfying the example, I was asking the same questions.

Is 'delusional' a pejorative term? I don't think so. It is certainly less pejorative than 'liar'.

If someone came here and told lies - which you knew to be lies. Then would you be prepared to say 'liar'? Or would that go against the community?

I think I'm making a fair point.

And there, ladies and gentlemen of the jury of our peers, I rest my case.

 

[Bullseye]

OT/

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood the example of possible alien visitation you gave, where, I seem to remember you pursued your own theory to the point where you seemed to be demanding that the member relating childhood experiences of possible alien encounters admit to being delusional.

You aren't sorry.

The point I was making at the time was very much in line with the point of view which many articles in the FT would have taken over the past 10 or 15 years. Though you are deliberately over simplyfying the example, I was asking the same questions.

Is 'delusional' a pejorative term? I don't think so. It is certainly less pejorative than 'liar'.

If someone came here and told lies - which you knew to be lies. Then would you be prepared to say 'liar'? Or would that go against the community?

I think I'm making a fair point.

Fair point,but you or I don't really know what others have seen/expierienced...there are more things in heaven and earth than are dream't of ..ect ect

 

[mejane]

alb, I hate to break this to you but you are also a part of this community that you so despise. If you want to be rude and undermine other members then please do so elsewhere.

As for a definition of forteanism... well, having looked at the evidence and done a few experiments, I'm 99.99999% certain that orbs are just a artifact of digital processing, but I'll be willing to admit I'm wrong if someone brings me a captive orb in a jar (now that's my perfect Christmas pressie!)

Jane.

 

[Anonymous]

And there, ladies and gentlemen of the jury of our peers, I rest my case.

So - just to be clear - are you saying that you would or wouldn't raise objections if you thought that somebody was not necessarily being accurate?

Would you rather be polite, for the sake of community, than to question the accuracy of what someone says?

EDIT: mejane - I hope that this answers your post too. Being polite for the sake of it is much ruder than trying to be straight. And if people tell wild stories then they should expect to be questioned.

 

[Bullseye]

And there, ladies and gentlemen of the jury of our peers, I rest my case.

So - just to be clear - are you saying that you would or wouldn't raise objections if you thought that somebody was not necessarily being accurate?

Would you rather be polite, for the sake of community, than to question the accuracy of what someone says?

If I KNEW ,not if I thought,then I would.....well probably just ignore it !

 

[PeniG]

I don't think that I agree with that. As soon as you form an opinion - then you are either a sceptic or a believer. On a per case basis.

A false dichotomy. Seldom does the world truly boil down to two choices, though frequently people try to limit the world to that.

Also, it is by no means necessary to form an opinion, and it may be that the "Fortean perspective" lies in the space between receiving data and drawing a conclusion. After all, once you draw your conclusion, you are no longer in the realm of inclusive possibility and you have necessarily damned some other conclusion.

For example: I've read as much about the Patterson Bigfoot film as most people here and more than many, and I have no opinion as to its authenticity. As far as I'm concerned, it could be:
An honest film of a genuine Bigfoot
A dishonest film of a fake Bigfoot
An honest film of a fake Bigfoot (a hoaxer deliberately pranking the film makers)
An honest film of a fairy, angel, poltergeist, or demon Bigfoot, since Bigfoot is not now and never has been a biological entity (this is my favorite but you won't catch me trying to support it with rational argument)
Something even more remarkable that I haven't thought of yet

To be a Fortean is to go bungee-jumping through the universe.

 

[mejane]

And there, ladies and gentlemen of the jury of our peers, I rest my case.

So - just to be clear - are you saying that you would or wouldn't raise objections if you thought that somebody was not necessarily being accurate?

Would you rather be polite, for the sake of community, than to question the accuracy of what someone says?

EDIT: mejane - I hope that this answers your post too. Being polite for the sake of it is much ruder than trying to be straight. And if people tell wild stories then they should expect to be questioned.

No, it doesn't.

The point is that you cannot be 100% certain, ever, that something experienced by someone else (or even by yourself) is true or false. Questioning and discussion is fine and is what most people here want and expect, but bullying someone into accepting your worldview will not be tolerated.

We do not tolerate rudeness out of some weird fluffy sense of community but simply because it makes this MB a good place to discuss events and this courtesy should be extended to every member, whether it's their 1st post or their 5000th.

Jane.

 

[rjmrjmrjm]

You know, reading this argument has suddenly made the belief in aliens more credible. How about that for Fortean inter-connectedness.

 

[Alexius4]

Alb, dear heart - if we are all such a bunch of hopeless, flossy-minded, tinsel-wearing losers, why not find a forum where you can be lauded by your peers and granted the laurels you so richly deserve?

Serious question - if you feel the forum is below your level, why bother?

As for a lack of philosophical content - those threads exist, but I don't recall your participation.

The board is a broad cross-section of life, and one of the principles at play is that everyone is free to participate and is worthy of respect. Looking down on those you feel lack your intellectual vigour is against that grain - and once again begs the question, if you are so far elevated, why take the trouble to remind us how low we dwell?

Also, I don't recall Bertrand Russell walking into the Cambridge Moral Science Society and saying 'evening thickies, why are you so crap?' , even though Russell had proven to his peers he was a cut above the rest. Maybe its about time you showed me your substance, because at the moment, from where I stand, you have done nothing to make me feel I'm a monkey-boy in comparison.

Take your time.

 

[Yithian]

Also, I don't recall Bertrand Russell walking into the Cambridge Moral Science Society and saying 'evening thickies, why are you so crap?'

No, he left that to Wittgenstein and his disciples.

 

[stu neville]

OK, here's what I think, again..

So what does it mean to be a Fortean?

I formulated my gibbon analogy a longish while back on http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5197?, in which I said:

A gibbon in it's natural habitat is not Fortean.

A gibbon in a zoo or safari park is out of place (geographically if not ethically, but that's a seperate debate), but nonetheless not Fortean either.

An unexpected and inexpicable gibbon appearing in someone's bathroom would be extremely Fortean.

Context is all.

As for Fortean attitudes, to take the above analogy, a "true believer" would say "the gibbon was teleported there": on the other hand a skeptic would say "The gibbon was put there by the householder in order to seek attention". Neither would for a moment entertain the notion that the other could be correct.

A Fortean, in contrast, would acknowledge the possibility of either of the above, not discount any other possible explanation (although assign a degree of probability to them ), but above all not dismiss the incident as fiction merely because a reason cannot be found for it. Reason is a human thing: often there is no apparent motive or method with phenomena. They just are, and Forteanism acknowledges that.

 

[hallybods]

I'm with old Sherlock on the matter - ...when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

 

[dreeness]

Sherlock Holmes, oh great. I was going to post something very illuminating, but now all I can think of is Basil Rathbone.

 

[Stormkhan]

Ah, but what is truth? If the truth is 'out there', what's this 'in here'?

I'm sorry but wielding my ACME razor with 'Occam' inscribed on the blade, I'd like to propose the following non-pretentious, non-intellectual definition...

Fortean (n) - A person interested in unusual or paranormal phenomena and willing to discuss them with like-minded individuals, passers-by, cats, aliens and (in extreme cases) brick walls. A Fortean may be of any race, creed or colour but unusual (not extreme) religious organisations are frequent locations. Politically, they tend to be Left leaning. They are gregarious by nature and are happy to spend time on computers, in libraries, in front of TVs and - periodically - skulking around damp and cold windsweaped heaths. Forteans tend to be open-minded while retaining a modicum of scepticism.

 

[rjmrjmrjm]

hurrah benign scepticism!!