What Does It Mean to Be a 'Fortean' ?

[dreeness]

(Try the link now, Stu.)

 

[Yithian]

:?
Would this involve changing the name of the "It Happened to Me" forum to something like the "Tell us your strange anecdote, so we can authoritatively inform you that you are delusional" forum?

Cheap shot but funny...

Keep 'em coming.

 

[again6]

Alb: I know you'll appreciate my tactless frankness here. Here's my opinion and like your own, it's uncompromising from the outset. I believe you suffer from Attention Seeking/Controlling-Disruptive Disorder. As you chose to be re: Lobelia Overhill, so I chose to be; in this instance a self-styled expert in what ails you. Further, I suspect anyone who utters the word 'jewish' in any forum, in connection with 'conspiracy', to be one who wishes to instigate further pointless, boring 'jewish' discussion. I feel you may have been unduly influenced by MIrc #politics or possibly MIrc's #philosophy.

This is Fortean Forums. Yet you commenced by informing Lobelia Overhill that you 'do not believe in' alien abduction. Thus your mind was closed before you responded to her post. Closed minds, in my opinion, are as useful as dog-droppings. More attention to your own motives for responding would have relieved you of your subsequent contorted justification for doing so. And, I do not believe you inserted 'international jewish conspiracy' by accident. I believe your agenda is crystal clear.

 

[stu neville]

To repeat myself...

This is an interesting thread, with important concepts being discussed - can't we please now leave the personal sniping behind? This is a board which encourages discussion of contrary views, not personal conflict.

No warnings or threats of closures yet, so please keep it civil.

So keep it civil, OK?

 

[Anonymous]

... Somehow I can't see that sort of thing actually working very well in practice, anyone thinking about posting an unusual account would quickly see the lay of the land, and think better of it.

...

One of the important facets of the 'It Happened To Me' Thread, related personal accounts and tales, is the very nature of the narrative. I've said before and it's worth bearing in mind, it's not just about what may, or may not really have happened: what people believe happened, how they remember it and how they tell the tale after are just as important and much can be learned.

What people honestly believe should be treated with a certain amount of respect, unless it's something that simply exists to back up racist, or nasty political ideas or something else that's downright detrimental.

 

[Anonymous]

I feel you may have been unduly influenced by MIrc #politics or possibly MIrc's #philosophy.

I don't use IRC. Specifically, and in general, you're talking nonsense.

And, I do not believe you inserted 'international jewish conspiracy' by accident. I believe your agenda is crystal clear.

FFS. You're being an idiot. Read the bloody thread. It was so obviously a neutral example. You're chasing shadows..

My 'agenda' is absolutely as written.

 

[Anonymous]

Having been a silent watcher on the Lobeilia thread, and a few others, I now feel moved to introduce the rather archaic, but apposite, psychological condition called 'Panzaism' :shock: Opposite of the quixotic, who can only see the windmills as giants, the panzaic could only ever see a giant as a windmill. Over fondness of the word 'deluded', either explicitly or by implication, but always delivered rather like holy water is use in vampire films, seems to be one of the prima facie symptoms. Also commonly used to stifle debate wholesale when the sufferer's world view is challenged even lightly.

 

[Imperial_Call]

deleted due to it's highly uncivilised content

 

[stu neville]

Civility? did someone mention that a while back? Could have sworn..

Oh sod it. Anyone for a glass of wine?

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Civility? did someone mention that a while back? Could have sworn..

I'm going out on a limb but I do believe the answer to your festive riddle is: Yes - you twice!!!

I would also imagine that came with some kind of implication that this thread could be shut down and/or warnings issued if things got out of hand but I'm just guessing there

I'd like to see if we can't salvage something from this thread as there is an solid underlying point (and some other goods ones raised) but I'm afraid personal digs will only end up with this all coming to an unsatisfactory conclusion.

 

[stu neville]

Civility? did someone mention that a while back? Could have sworn..

I'm going out on a limb but I do believe the answer to your festive riddle is: Yes - you twice!!!

I would also imagine that came with some kind of implication that this thread could be shut down and/or warnings issued if things got out of hand but I'm just guessing there

I'd like to see if we can't salvage something from this thread as there is an solid underlying point (and some other goods ones raised) but I'm afraid personal digs will only end up with this all coming to an unsatisfactory conclusion.

That's a 200% pay rise for that answer, me laddo - a whole shiny pound will be yours this time next week .

Yes, the non-veiled implication is it will be shut, and mods will grumble in specific directions, if this doesn't return to it's intended purpose, and do so very very soon.

No more sniping, let's just stick to the point, please.

 

[Imperial_Call]

No more sniping, let's just stick to the point, please.

I was merely responding [in a civilised manner] to the fact that my name has been raised on this thread more than once ...

 

[NilesCalder]

Fortean (n) - A person interested in unusual or paranormal phenomena and willing to discuss them with like-minded individuals, passers-by, cats, aliens and (in extreme cases) brick walls. A Fortean may be of any race, creed or colour but unusual (not extreme) religious organisations are frequent locations. Politically, they tend to be Left leaning. They are gregarious by nature and are happy to spend time on computers, in libraries, in front of TVs and - periodically - skulking around damp and cold windsweaped heaths. Forteans tend to be open-minded while retaining a modicum of scepticism.

Splendid! Best defination of a Fortean EVAR! That's another pint I owe you old bean.

Specifically, and in general, you're talking nonsense.

Yeah? Well you're being rude and utterly unforgiveable. To be frank alb, before you start telling people to clean their lenses you should first get that crack out of your own*.

That's a 200% pay rise for that answer, me laddo - a whole shiny pound will be yours this time next week

Emps gets PAID?

*a brand new habbo duck to the first person to correctly identify the original quote I'm paraphrasing.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah? Well you're being rude and utterly unforgiveable. To be frank alb, before you start telling people to clean their lenses you should first get that crack out of your own*.

For goodness sake Niles. Have you actually read the post I was responding to. It was nonsense. Utter drivel.

Here it is again.

Further, I suspect anyone who utters the word 'jewish' in any forum, in connection with 'conspiracy', to be one who wishes to instigate further pointless, boring 'jewish' discussion. I feel you may have been unduly influenced by MIrc #politics or possibly MIrc's #philosophy.

And, I do not believe you inserted 'international jewish conspiracy' by accident. I believe your agenda is crystal clear.

Scroll.

jesus. jesus!

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

Stu: 200% more belly button lint? I'm going to have to think of more things to do with it!!

Lobelia: I don't think the comments were directed at you.

Yeah? Well you're being rude and utterly unforgiveable. To be frank alb, before you start telling people to clean their lenses you should first get that crack out of your own*.

For goodness sake Niles. Have you actually read the post I was responding to. It was nonsense. Utter drivel.

It doesn't give you a license to be rude back.

As your being rude to people doesn't give them free rein on being rude to you.

I'd recommend people re-read what Stu, Niles and I have said and take that as a shot across the bows as subsequents shots will be square a midships.

This thread is still spiralling down into further cheap digs and point scoring - anyone fancy posting ideas about how to get it back on the rails again?

How about people go back and read what alb has said and try commenting on that?

 

[Anonymous]

You might as well delete the thread.

 

[PeniG]

Jesus - motes and beams, Niles. What's a habbo duck and why do I want one?

As a famously tactless person myself, I often find that it's easy to be rude by accident. I have also found, throughout my life, that people don't cut you slack and would rather beat you up for rudeness than explain your mistake so you can fix it. "You are so awful?" "Me? What did I do?"
"You know very well what you did!" "No, honestly, I don't. Tell me and I won't do it anymore." "That thing you said! It was terrible! How could you, you horrible person?" "What thing I said?" "Don't play dumb!" "It's not an act!" And so on.

This is easier on messageboards because you can go back and re-read yourself, in persona as the other person, and sometimes track down the problem on your own. I can also catch things before they go out sometime (Rule # 1: Never ever ever hit "submit" when you're angry! Keep the post and wait 24 hours - you'll probably delete it entirely.) I love editing my conversations! Sometimes I still screw up, but the words: "I'm sorry" and a re-statement of what I really meant to say often work wonders. If they don't, there's nothing to do but shrug and move on. People who want to be mad, will be.

Now, on the topic of discussing the foundation of a belief with someone who holds it - I think the most important thing to remember about belief is that no one *decides* to believe anything. Except in cases of false belief (when people are desperately shoring up what they want to believe but don't really - when you meet someone like that, it's best to leave them to their loved ones), we profess a belief for combinations three reasons:

1) Trust. My mother told me the Jesus loves me; therefore, I believe that Jesus loves me. My teacher told me that the sun is at the center of the solar system; therefore, I believe that the sun is at the center of the solar system. My dead grandmother stood at the foot of my bed and said she was with great-grandma in heaven; therefore, I believe that heaven exists and grandma and great-grandma are both there.

2) Experience. I had an NDE and witnessed heaven. I walked down the street and saw a black panther cross in front of me. I got on a magic train at midnight and got a bell from Santa's hands.

3) Evidence. I did experiments demonstrating that cancer causes lung cancer, that talcum powder is a poor substitute for flour in a cake recipe, that bird song is genetically programmed and modified by experience. I've seen stone footprints of dinosaurs and shellfish fossils on mountaintops. I've tried the spells described in the Harry Potter books (and they don't work).

You don't have to think about it very long to see how these factors interweave. The person who finds the evidence has the evidence and his own experience of testing it to fuel his belief; the people who read his account of it must either trust him, or attempt to repeat his experience and find the same evidence. If my experience - my grandma's just as dead, and just as worthy of heaven, as yours, but she never came back from the dead to tell me anything - differs from yours, I may understandably find you harder to trust and look for different interpretations of your experience, more in keeping with my own. You can then interpret this as my saying that you're not trustworthy. Of course that hurts your feelings, and suddenly there's a flamewar going on.

We have to distinguish between data and interpretation; we have to recognize the source of our own beliefs; and we have to find ways to question the beliefs of others in productive ways. Touching off an emotional reaction is not productive. Neither is responding with another emotional reaction. It takes practice to avoid both.

But nothing worth doing is easy, is it?

 

[rjmrjmrjm]

Isn't a 'Fortean' essentially agnostic; less interested in drawing conclusions and more interested, much more interested, in looking at the way in which stories are told - and the patterns and similarities between the stories people tell ?

I offer the data. Suit yourself.

I'm fairly certain that I was trying to be 'fortean'. But asking questions can seem rude.

I do not know how to find out anything new without being offensive.

Of course he hadn't met aliens. But it should have been interesting to know why he thought that he had .

This is very un-fortean, to dismiss the evidence that he himself professed to believe. Why had he not met aliens?

a/ to try to find out exactly what the person actually believes.

b/ to find out why a person might believe or say such things.

c/ to perhaps enable that person to realise other aspects and influences which might affect such thinking.

I think that you may be mixing Forteanism with psycology. Whilst the two can be quite closely linked we must retain a sense of distance between the two. Surely by combining them we create even more 'wooly' thinking?

In this instance, you seem to be advocating some sort of 'cure' for this 'irrational' belief. Perhaps 'cure' is the wrong word, perhaps what you are attempting to do with point "/c" is convince the person to think in a Fortean way?

On the other hand,

I cannot accept that the products of the mind are subject-matter for belief.

For example - much that was said by the person who was claiming to have been bothered by aliens ... was actually very similar to aspects of a 'dreams' thread which was running at the same time.

How wonderful that would be, but the BB system does not allow such detailed linking. What would be ideal would be some sort of Wikifort.

So far I have the feeling that the magazine (and this bb) is going around and around in circles.

One measures a circle beginning anywhere

 

[NilesCalder]

Jesus - motes and beams, Niles. What's a habbo duck and why do I want one?

It's a small (and very cheap) duck found over in Habbo Hotel, a virtual chatroom used by some members of this forum. More details can be found here.

Other than that: good post; well made. As always. 8)

Amen Brother.

 

[Mighty_Emperor]

For example - much that was said by the person who was claiming to have been bothered by aliens ... was actually very similar to aspects of a 'dreams' thread which was running at the same time.

How wonderful that would be, but the BB system does not allow such detailed linking. What would be ideal would be some sort of Wikifort.

Well its easy enough to refer people to related topics using hyper links - in fact I linked to night hag thread from here:

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 212#401212

The problem is that alb was definitive that it couldn't have possibly taken place where, as I pointed out, that even if it is highly unlikely it would be rather unFortean to completely discount it unless one had actual direct knowledge of the events:

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 216#401216

On a broader topic alb seems to be saying that we should be free to question people's experience and suggest alternative ideas. In fact in Lobellia's thread I did just that outlining a scenario that I felt was more likely (although I'd probbaly be able to express it better as I have read more on night hags and other parasomnia - this, and other reading/pondering I've been doing on related topics, also makes me more convinced it isn't anything to do with alien abductions):

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 233#401233

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 056#402056

Fortunately there is no way to actually force one's opinion on people (no matter how well argued) and if they chose not to accept it then that is just one of those things and a possible jumping off point into the nature of belief.

As well as myself and alb other people offered other potential explanations for the various reported phenomena and yet it is alb's explanations that people are quoting as problematic. This would suggest to me that there isn't a problem with people questioning reported phenomena or pointing out alternatives but in your (alb's) approach to the field and to discussion in general.

Definitive statements like:

But you were not abducted. That didn't happen. You need to understand that.

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 173#401173

He did say:

I don't belief that the proper role of a 'Fortean' (if that word has any point - and I'm not convinced) - is to simply believe anything.

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 996#405996

This is quite right - it also doesn't mean we simply disbelieve things either. In an earlier thread you said:

I won't mess with you here or play games. I simply don't believe in alien abduction. But I am prepared to believe that this is what you experienced. I believe that you are a victim of some kind of hypnosis or suggestion.

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 050#401050

I expanded on this theme at the time:

www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 127#406127

 

[Stormkhan]

I think there's a certain amount of over-analysis and border-blending in concepts and subjects here.

At the core is the definition of 'Fortean'. Taking into account all the wierd phenomena that this can cover (including conspiracies, alien abduction, spiritualism and alternative religions), it is a general term to indicate a phenomena, belief or record of such stuff which is outside the considered norm of everyday life. Forteans are those who are interested in such stuff. That's it. Period. Lie down now.

There is no involvement with the words 'investigations', 'believability'. 'analysis' and 'credibility' except where it relates to an individuals interests. Thus you can have a Fortean who believes in the existence of faries and other supernatural entities, absolutely and without empirical evidence to support. You can have Forteans who refuse to believe in a yeti until there is one, certified by the worlds leading biologists, nailed to the door of the British Museum after being shot in the head with a steel-jacketed hollow-point round. The whole point of being a Fortean is the interest in paranormal phenomena, belief or not.

I've been interested for ages. Strange things have happened to me. I consider myself Fortean. I'm sceptical but willing to listen to any account or theory and, unless I can riddle it with holes, I'm willing to leave it alone until further data is found. I don't believe in everything but I also believe that some things happen, whether I personally know how they work or not. I'm not an analytical scientist ... just an (allegedly) human being who looks around a bit.

I can't see anything wrong with the IHTM section as a place where people can volunteer their experiences and have the wider audience (or would that be readership) comment or help to explain what happened. This can be done with tact and politeness. There is no excuse for being rude then shrugging one's shoulders and saying "I'm just being honest". Tact can be used by even the most sceptical.


Oh, and I tried to get on Habbo but the bloody download saved as an HTML page. It still happens no matter what I do! Mutter. Mumble. Sniff.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh, and I tried to get on Habbo but the bloody download saved as an HTML page. It still happens no matter what I do! Mutter. Mumble. Sniff.

Try clicking on 'Save As' in the 'File' section as it's downloading. You should then be able to save it as a '.swf' ('Shock wave flash') file, or whatever. Then all you've got to do is find it.

 

[Beakmoo]

There is no involvement with the The whole point of being a Fortean is the interest in paranormal phenomena, belief or not.

Good point, but IMO that would be a fortean with a small "f". A Fortean is surely someone who adopts the Fortean philosophy, (which to me is agnosticism, pretty much). There has to be some way to differentiate between the two meanings.

 

[rjmrjmrjm]

Forteanism is agnosticism with a major difference. A Fortean actively looks for things to be agnostic about whilst a mere agnostic wouldn't really care.

I see no need for a difference between 'fortean' and 'Fortean'. As with any philosophy or life-style there will always be degrees of followers ranging from the hard-line forteans to the dip-my-toe-in-the-puddle-of-ectoplasm-when-it-suits-me forteans.

From what I gather reading Forts books, he never wanted to explain properly the events he chronicled himself. He offered a theory now and then, but they were really to prod mainstream scientists into questioning his evidence.

Forts work opened up new avenues of the unexplained, he created a system of thought that allowed people to access the world of the paranormal without loosing credability. The next logical step, for any human, when a door opens is to explore it.

By the way, didn't someone once call hard-line forteans Fortists?

 

[dreeness]

Tolerance for uncertainty.

 

[Melf]

evidence is in the eye of the beholder.

to use forts words, such an event

"...which seems so final and authoritative to some minds, is no more nearly absolute by the description by a child or description by an imbecile."

 

[Soong2]

Tolerance for uncertainty.

Ooooo, I like that. Snappy too! Whats that in latin, I fancy adding it to my coat of arms.

 

[Stormkhan]

By the way, didn't someone once call hard-line forteans Fortists?

Warning! That sounds like the artificial labelling along similar lines as the major causus bellum "The difference between Trekkies and Trekkers". The only real result being arguments, snobbery, flamewars, degeneration of the actual genre and wholescale ridicule of an interest which is impossible to shake and takes away any sensible debate with outside interests.

:no-no:
"'Ware, my friend, for that is a trail which leads to naught but unhappiness and despair!"
Stormkhan, on being asked directions to the bogs in his local pub

 

[stu neville]

Warning! That sounds like the artificial labelling along similar lines as the major causus bellum "The difference between Trekkies and Trekkers".

According to P J O'Rourke (IIRC) the actual difference between them is that Trekkies queue for autographs and dress up as Lt Uhura, whereas Trekkers ask serious questions such as "What is the pH balance of the soil on Vulcan"?

As Stormkhan pointed out earlier, Forteans and forteans alike all share the same interest in damned data: outside the scientific (and therefore accepted) paradigm. What they do with the data is up to them.

 

[Anonymous]

By the way, didn't someone once call hard-line forteans Fortists?

Warning! That sounds like the artificial labelling along similar lines as the major causus bellum "The difference between Trekkies and Trekkers". The only real result being arguments, snobbery, flamewars, degeneration of the actual genre and wholescale ridicule of an interest which is impossible to shake and takes away any sensible debate with outside interests.

:no-no:
"'Ware, my friend, for that is a trail which leads to naught but unhappiness and despair!"
Stormkhan, on being asked directions to the bogs in his local pub

Don't forget the ones who swear that Star Trek ended with the leaving of Chrisopher Pike - The Cagers!