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What Is Consciousness?

sirwiggum said:
This is what makes me sceptical about OOBEs - usually they don't come back and say that they have seen unknown colours / radiance that they can't describe.

Well, actually they often do, I think. e.g.:
"described by various experiencers using such adjectives as: golden, beautiful, unearthly, fairy tale-like, indescribable, beyond anything that can be described, so superior to anything on Earth, colorful, brilliant, heavenly, endless, crystalline, grand, paradise, and galaxy-like"
 
I give this article in full, purely because the subject fascinates me (whoever 'me' may be! ;) )

Consciousness explained (sort of), using a cocktail party
By Tom Chivers Science Last updated: March 7th, 2013
[video - 56 min]

There’s a lovely story by our science correspondent Nick Collins today in our paper about how our brain can filter out background noise, rather like those noise-reducing headphones, in order to concentrate on the person speaking; the cognitive scientist Colin Cherry called it the "cocktail party effect". The jumble of sound waves enters our ear, and passes through the auditory cortex in that same jumble – clinking glasses and coughs all mixed in together with the words of the speaker – but as it goes through the parts of the brain that manage language and attention, the sounds that make up that speech are singled out and "amplified" while the unimportant stuff is relegated to the background.

It's fascinating, but it's very much part of the wider picture of our brains as a series of interlinked subroutines and modules, each with highly specific tasks. For example, an equivalent is our ability to recognise faces: they leap out of the surroundings, a little automatic routine in our brain constantly on the search for the shape of eye-eye-nose-mouth; it's why we see faces in clouds, JFK's profile in rocks. This highly specific skill, which includes the ability to mentally age faces so that we can recognise an old man from a photo of him as a teenager, is managed by an equivalently specific area: the fusiform gyrus, at the bottom of each hemisphere of the brain. People with damage to this area are just as visually capable as everyone else in every other aspect – they can recognise, say, objects – but can't recognise people's faces: the condition is known as "prosopagnosia".

The idea that we have a specific module for recognising faces might not be all that surprising. But how about the mooted idea that there is something in our brains which is designed to recognise “tools”, as opposed to just objects? Another one that has the job of recognising fruits and vegetables? Different kinds of brain damage can knock out, or at least impair, these different skills. Dr P, a sufferer of object-blindness described in Oliver Sacks’s wonderful book The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat, could recognise cubes, spheres, dodecahedrons with ease; could recognise jacks, kings and queens in cards; but when asked what the object in front of him was, said hesitatingly “A continuous surface, infolded on itself. It appears to have five outpouchings, if this is the word.” The object was a glove.

It goes on. Language and reading isn’t just one part, it’s several; people who suffer from expressive aphasia, caused by damage to a part of the brain called Broca’s area, leaves them capable of understanding speech, of reading and writing – but unable [to] speak in complete sentences themselves, rarely able to put more than four words together in a row. There are dozens of these sort of things, often very strange indeed.

The implication is that the brain – consciousness – is made of hundreds, or thousands, of smaller parts. Which of course it is. As Daniel Dennett says in Consciousness Explained, we are made of around 100 trillion tiny robots, cells. Not one of them is conscious; not one of them “knows who you are, or cares”, as he puts it in a lecture on the subject (see video above). Yet somehow, out of those unconscious parts, consciousness is made. Or so materialists like me believe, anyway.

But, of course, “the ability to recognise tools” isn’t “consciousness”; the ability to speak, the ability to see and divide the universe into objects and people and animals, to recognise patterns – all these things that we can isolate and perhaps one day explain – are not “consciousness”. Some people, including the philosopher David Chalmers, call this is the “hard problem” of consciousness: you can explain all the subroutines, you can explain all the bits and bobs and tools and functions, but you can’t explain “me”, why I, this unified self, this feeling subject, experiences the world as I do.

This is one of the great arguments of philosophy and neuroscience, and I don’t pretend to be able to tell David Chalmers that he’s wrong and that Daniel Dennett is right. But I prefer Dennett’s argument, which approaches the problem of consciousness with practicality rather than mysticism. He compares consciousness to a magic trick, called The Tuned Deck. It’s a pretty ordinary pick-a-card-any-card routine, but Ralph Hull, the 1930s magician who invented it, puzzled all of his contemporaries for years with it, who simply could not explain it. Dennett says:

Like much great magic, the trick is over before you even realize the trick has begun. The trick, in its entirety, is in the name of the trick, “The Tuned Deck”, and more specifically, in one word, “The”. As soon as Hull had announced his new trick and given its name to his eager audience, the trick was over… Hull would do a relatively simple and familiar card presentation trick of type A.

His audience, savvy magicians, would see that he might possibly be performing a type A trick, a hypothesis they could test by being stubborn and uncooperative spectators in a way that would thwart any attempt at a type A trick. When they then adopted the appropriate recalcitrance to test the hypothesis, Hull would ‘repeat’ the trick, this time executing a type B card presentation trick. The spectators would then huddle and compare notes: might he be doing a type B trick? They test that hypothesis by adopting the recalcitrance appropriate to preventing a type B trick and still he does “the” trick – using method C, of course. When they test the hypothesis that he’s pulling a type C trick on them, he switches to method D – or perhaps he goes back to method A or B, since his audience has ‘refuted’ the hypothesis that he’s using method A or B.

The same thing is going on with consciousness, he says. If you explain a “trick” – whether it’s pattern recognition or language or self-consciousness or proprioception or any of hundreds of other parts of the mind that we can take some steps to explaining – then you’ve just explained a trick, you haven’t explained consciousness. So you explain another one. But you haven’t explained consciousness, you’ve just explained another trick the brain can do.

But “consciousness” isn’t one big magic thing, it’s thousands of little parts, says Dennett. By giving it this one big name, we trick ourselves, like we do with “The Tuned Deck”, into thinking there is only one big thing to explain, the subject, the I, the ego. But there isn’t. There are hundreds, or thousands, or millions, depending on how big a bit you’re looking at: our cleverness, our consciousness, is made of thousands of stupid robots. Explaining consciousness involves explaining the smaller bits, and then explaining how those bits are made of still smaller bits, and still smaller bits, until you’re down to the cells.

Of course, some people want consciousness, the self, the soul, to be mysterious, and that’s fine. But if, like me, you prefer the idea that we can take it apart and see how it fits together, then things like the “cocktail party problem” show us how it could be done.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomch ... ail-party/
 
Or, another sign of symptoms of classic sociopathology. We're just zombies made up of lots of little robots. For their next trick the mind scientists will disappear up their own fundaments. Did they take route a., or route b.?
 
garrick92 said:
You really do have to admire a phenomenon capable of arguing in favour of its own non-existence.
Yes. According to the experts, we're not really conscious, we only think we are. Really, we're tricking ourselves by standing in a hall of mirrors, continuously turning round to catch a glimpse of the back of our necks. Ultimately, we're not really there, at all. The hall of mirrors is empty, repeating reflections, reflecting an infinity of nothing.

Materialist reductionism to the point of absurdity.
 
Pietro_Mercurios said:
Yes. According to the experts, we're not really conscious, we only think we are. Really, we're tricking ourselves by standing in a hall of mirrors, continuously turning round to catch a glimpse of the back of our necks. Ultimately, we're not really there, at all. The hall of mirrors is empty, repeating reflections, reflecting an infinity of nothing.
Ah yes, you express it so well! ;)

But can you dig up any experts that support the opposing 'numinous' viewpoint? Because supernatural arguments rely just as much, if not more, on 'hand-waving' arguments.

I prefer to stick with the natural - at least that way, we start from well-understood bedrock science..
 
An interesting study on how brain activity alone influences our feelings, apparently without involving hormones or other body chemistry.

New music 'rewarding for the brain'
By Rebecca Morelle, Science reporter, BBC World Service

Listening to new music is rewarding for the brain, a study suggests.
Using MRI scans, a Canadian team of scientists found that areas in the reward centre of the brain became active when people heard a song for the first time.
The more the listener enjoyed what they were hearing, the stronger the connections were in the region of the brain called the nucleus accumbens.
The study is published in the journal Science.

Dr Valorie Salimpoor, from the Rotman Research Institute, in Toronto, told the BBC's Science in Action programme: "We know that the nucleus accumbens is involved with reward.
"But music is abstract: It's not like you are really hungry and you are about to get a piece of food and you are really excited about it because you are going to eat it - or the same thing applies to sex or money - that's when you would normally see activity in the nucleus accumbens.
"But what's cool is that you're anticipating and getting excited over something entirely abstract - and that's the next sound that is coming up."

To carry out the study, which took place at the Montreal Neurological Centre at McGill University, the scientists played 19 volunteers 60 excerpts of new music, based on their musical preferences.
As they were listening to the 30-second-long tracks, they had to the opportunity to buy the ones they liked in a mocked up online music store.

All of this was carried out while the participants were lying in an MRI machine.
By analysing the scans, the scientists found that the nucleus accumbens was "lighting up" and depending on the level of activity, the researchers could predict whether the participant was likely to buy a song.
Dr Salimpoor said: "As they are listening to this music, we can look at their brain activity and figure out how they are appreciating or enjoying this music before they even tell us anything.

"And that's part of this new direction that neuroscience is going in - trying to understand what people are thinking, and inferring their thoughts and motivations and eventually their behaviour through their brain activity."

The researchers found that the nucleus accumbens was also interacting with another region of the brain called the auditory cortical stores.
This is an area that stores sound information based on music that people have been exposed to before.
"This part of the brain will be unique for each individual, because we've all heard different music in the past," explained Dr Salimpoor.

The researchers now want to find out how this drives our music tastes, and whether our brain activity can explain why people are drawn to different styles of music.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22096764
 
According to the experts, we're not really conscious, we only think we are.

Reminds me of the old saying about artificial intelligence, it doesn't really think, it just thinks it thinks.

I'm undecided on these type of arguments. On one hand, the idea that we don;t actually exist does seem quite absurd, on the other hand, there are things about our perception of the world that seem equally compelling but that we know don't actually exist, like colour.
 
This article amplifies and comments upon the Rotman Research findings:

Why your brain loves music
New neuroscience study sets out to explain why in some respects music offers the same sort of pleasure as a really good thriller.
By Ivan Hewett, Music Critic
11:33AM BST 12 Apr 2013

The love affair between music and neuroscience just keeps going and going. And this isn’t surprising because music’s power over us is so huge, and so odd. It’s not like those other great providers of pleasure, food and sex. It doesn’t help to propagate our genes. Nor does it tell us anything about the world. Curiosity is a useful survival tool, but only when applied to the world at large. And yet music seems to satisfy our craving for mental stimulation. We follow its patterns, keen to see where they might lead.

The latest research, reported on the Today programme, comes from a team at the Rotman Research Institute in Canada. It was led by Valorie Salimpoor, who was once so overwhelmed by hearing a Brahms Hungarian Dance in the car she had to pull off the road. Ever since she’s being trying to figure out why. This latest project helps to explain why in some respects music offers the same sort of pleasure as a really good thriller. A group of listeners was asked to listen to short samples of 60 songs they’d never heard before, within a style they were familiar with. The 19 volunteers (10 men and nine women aged 18 to 37) then bid for each track, up to a maximum of two dollars.
To make it more realistic, participants actually paid their own money, and were given a CD of their chosen tracks at the end of the study.

While they listened, the participants brains were scanned using MRI. Many different brain regions were stimulated in the participants’ brains, when they liked a particular song. But only when they were willing to pay was there a strong correlation with one brain region in particular, called the nucleus accumbens.
This is the area responsible for the sensation of "pleasant surprise". "We’re constantly making predictions, even if we don’t know the music," said the team leader Valorie Salimpoor in an interview in Sciencemag. "We’re still predicting how it should unfold."

It might seem surprising that people should enjoy having their expectations contradicted. But these results only reveal the physical basis for something we’ve known about for centuries. In the ancient world, teachers of rhetoric knew that one way to hold people’s attention was to set up expectations and then deny them.
As the great 17th-century philosopher Francis Bacon put it in an essay on rhetoric, "there is pleasure even in being deceived".

But the implication is this only works provided the ‘deceiving’ doesn’t go on too long. Thwarting expectations is good, as long as it’s temporary. Anyone who’s studied music theory will have come across the "interrupted cadence", which does actually what its name suggests. It seems to be leading to a close, but at the last minute swerves to an unexpected destination. We enjoy this, partly because it’s a pleasurable shock, but also because we know it will all come out right in the end.

More closely relevant to this new research is a book published more than 50 years ago by the music theorist Leonard Meyer. Entitled Emotion and Meaning in Music, it offers an entire theory of musical meaning based on a close examination of things like the interrupted cadence. Meyer showed how this mechanism of "thwarted expectation" only works when we know the style. Faced with a piece of Korean pansori music, most of us can’t predict how it will unfold, so our pleasure in the music is drastically reduced.

Meyer had a subtle mind, but was writing in a different age, when intellectual fashions were different. I wonder how many of these neuroscientists have even heard of him? What bothers me about these research projects is the disparity between their musical and scientific aspects. The technology of brain-scanning and the clever experimental set-ups are so awe-inspiring we tend not to notice that musically speaking, these projects are pretty crude.

What we need is a proper dialogue between musicians and scientists; then we might learn something really profound. 8)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/musi ... music.html
 
And this iPlayer piece is along the same lines:

6 Degrees of...
- 2. Calculation


Dr Marcus de Sautoy explains how songwriting cannot exist without maths and Blur's Dave Rowntree explains how radio waves are actually magic in action.

Miranda Sawyer presents a new four part series on BBC 6Music on the gloriously inextricable links between music and emotion. Each show in Six Degrees Of. is built around a connecting musical sentiment or theme - Separation, Calculation, Trepidation, Jubilation - and features an eclectic variety of songs as well as revealing discussions around the emotional refrain.

The well-informed 6Music listeners have sent in their suggestions of suitable tracks for each show: from Beck to Bach, from Lee Dorsey to Laura Marling. And Sawyer unpicks the theme through interviews with fascinating song-writers and cultural figures.

In Calculation, mathematician Marcus de Sautoy explains how song-writing cannot exist without maths, and Blur's Dave Rowntree talks about how radio waves are actually magic in action. Other contributors include Raspberry Pi creator Eben Upton and composer Mira Calix. Sawyer, a recent recipient of the Record of the Day award for Outstanding Contribution to Music Journalism, weaves her own observations in and around the connecting theme. And with the final track, she connects into the next show!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... lculation/

Available until
12:00AM Thu, 1 Jan 2099 :shock:
 
This long article gets to the nitty-gritty of the topics discussed on this thread:

The Serpent's Promise by Steve Jones: exlusive extract
In his new book, Steve Jones puts the Bible under the scientific microscope. Here he asks whether religious transcendence might have a biological cause.
By Steve Jones
7:00AM BST 22 Apr 2013

In 1962, a graduate student at Harvard Divinity School tried to find the roots of religious mystical experience. In the Marsh Chapel, just before the Good Friday service, he divided a group of students into two. Half drank a shot of vitamin B3 and the rest swallowed psilocybin – the drug found in magic mushrooms. The Marsh Chapel event changed lives. Many of those who had taken the drug said their moral insights had been transformed. Almost all felt a new sense of unity, transcendence and sacredness – each an attribute associated with the deepest consolations of prayer.

Devotees insist that when they put their trust in a higher power they ascend into a universe of thought denied to sceptics. They may be right; but similar sensations can emerge from physical changes in body and brain.

The philosopher William James, a committed Christian, dismissed all attempts to understand mystical insights with an appeal to pathology. “Medical materialism”, as he called it, was trivial: it “finishes up St Paul by calling his vision on the road to Damascus a discharging lesion of the occipital cortex, he being an epileptic. It snuffs out St Teresa as an hysteric, St Francis of Assisi as an hereditary degenerate.” Biology was not the right tool with which to explore devotion.

Despite James’s dismissal of a physical basis for spiritual experience, he had himself experimented with the effects of chemistry on the mental universe. James sampled nitrous oxide, or “laughing gas”, and found it had a dramatic effect: “The keynote of the experience is the tremendously exciting sense of an intense metaphysical illumination. Truth lies open to the view in depth beneath depth of almost blinding evidence.” Like the students in the March Chapel, he wrote of the event as the strongest emotion he had ever had.

Science, in its banal fashion, makes it possible to study the mind in ways impossible in the days of James. The visions of saints, sinners, dreamers, drug users or anyone else can now be explored with technology. To do so may not give much insight into piety itself, but hints that at least some of its symptoms are side effects of the machinery of the nervous system. People are free to follow the voices in their heads, but they should realise that (as far as biology can tell) they have a material origin.

Some scientists suggest that the entire structure of conviction – from the visitations of spirits to the hope of the afterlife, and from the architecture of the Vatican to the music of Bach – emerges from artefacts of perception. The divine mysteries are no more than a sort of phosphorescence of the brain: an incidental of its normal (or abnormal) function. That organ – like all others – cannot always cope with what existence throws at it. Its mistakes and failures manifest themselves in many ways. Some are interpreted as illusions, others as psychiatric disorders, but yet others as messages from a higher plane.

Many people – atheists and believers alike – are indignant at the claim that their convictions are quirks of the nervous system. It is almost impossible to prove or disprove that idea. Even so, hallucination and even mental disorder do play a part in the histories of all creeds and to understand them might hint at what some of the varieties of religious experience may actually be.

As conjurors know, the brain is always ready to fool itself, often in remarkable ways. Someone who has lost a hand may be tormented by a “phantom limb”. Their nervous system refuses to accept that the structure has gone and interprets it as present, but stuck in a cramped position. Non-existent fingers dig into an imagined palm and patients face intense discomfort as they try, and fail, to unclench their fictional fist. Their distress is genuine. It shows that pain, like many other messages from the external world, is not always a true statement of reality. A simple optical trick works miracles. The patient hides his stump (which might be on the left) behind a mirror set at right angles in front of him. He looks into it and shifts the image of his clenched right hand until it appears to replace its absent partner. Then he commands both fists to open. His real hand obeys at once. The image in the mirror appears to do the same and the pain from the absent hand goes away. 8)

Sceptics often use such observations to mock what they see as the delusion that human actions are subject to the influence of a higher power. They boast that they at least act in a manner determined by their own free will. Their decisions – be they to make a cup of tea or to blaspheme against the Holy Ghost – are proudly made of their own volition. Such people deny the existence of an unconscious world. But brain science should give them, as much as their opponents, pause for thought.

Nobody chooses to breathe in and out, and nobody, sovereign as they might feel, can hold their breath for 15 minutes. The nervous system overrules their wishes and they are forced to gasp for breath. In fact, all actions, apparently voluntary or not, are preceded by brain activity outside the perception of those who make them. It then becomes almost impossible to separate the conscious from the unconscious mind, or to disconnect the inner senses from the apparent intervention of an external agent.

Students wired up to a scanner were asked to sit in front of a clock and, whenever they felt like it, flick up their hands and note the exact time they decided to do so. Easy enough, but about a second before they recorded each decision, a section of their grey matter had already burst into activity; the resolution to act had been made before the actor was aware of it.

etc...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/book ... tract.html
 
Sometimes I have a hard time even understanding what this argument is about.

“Does consciousness really exist or is it an illusion?” What the hell does that question even mean?

A rainbow is an “illusion” in that it isn’t a physical object, but rainbows exist – we can see them , they can be photographed, we can measure their brightness and angular extent. A rainbow is a visual effect created by the properties of light and water and air.

The sky is blue even though we know it’s just refraction of sunlight in the atmosphere, and that there is no physical surface overhead that can be blue.

The U.S. Government exists, and has real effects in the real world, even though it consists of thousands of discreet agencies, offices, individuals, processes, policies, ideas, and even though I can’t point at any one person or thing and say “A-ha! This right here is the U.S. Government.”

Consciousness is an effect created by the aggregate action of lower level biological processes and sub-systems. So what? How does that mean it doesn’t exist?

Do I love my children, or is this nothing more than a built-in glandular reward system to ensure that I act to ensure the proliferation of my DNA?

Rationality and reductionism are great tools until they are taken to imbecilic extremes and misinterpreted as ultimate truth.
 
IamSundog said:
Consciousness is an effect created by the aggregate action of lower level biological processes and sub-systems. So what? How does that mean it doesn’t exist?
I agree with most of what you say, but I don't follow the last part.

Who says consciousness doesn't exist?

I thought most people agree that consciousness exists, but there's debate about the actual nature (or maybe supernature..) of it!
 
rynner2 said:
Who says consciousness doesn't exist?

Beg your pardon, I should say “the self” in place of “consciousness”. Although others have also mixed the two terms:

rynner2 said:
Do we really even exist? Fooling ourselves into thinking we do is the one thing that makes us who we are…..The only disagreement many scientists would have with philosopher Thomas Metzinger's claim that "modern philosophy of mind and cognitive neuroscience together are about to shatter the myth of the self" is that the destruction has already occurred…..There is a wide range of scientific evidence that is used to deny "I think, therefore I am"…..Many writers, such as Blackmore and Metzinger, draw the conclusion that the self is an illusion.
garrick92 said:
You really do have to admire a phenomenon capable of arguing in favour of its own non-existence.
Pietro_Mercurios said:
Yes. According to the experts, we're not really conscious, we only think we are. Really, we're tricking ourselves by standing in a hall of mirrors, continuously turning round to catch a glimpse of the back of our necks. Ultimately, we're not really there, at all. The hall of mirrors is empty, repeating reflections, reflecting an infinity of nothing.
Materialist reductionism to the point of absurdity.
 
I don't think it is something that can be explained or measured using science.

I think that God might be this consciousness when explained in religious terms. What is called the soul is perhaps this consciousness when our body dies.

I think that this consciousness might be shared with all conscious things, and may be the creator of all matter.
 
lkb3rd said:
I don't think it is something that can be explained or measured using science.
But if we don't try, we'll never know! And in fact science has made a lot of progress in understanding consciousness.

But a lot of people with religious leanings feel uncomfortable with the idea that it might all be down to computing processes, hard-wired into us through millions of years of evolution, that our flesh and blood computers are running various programs with nested sub-routines that account for all we do and think.

But people like me feel uncomfortable with religion, and ideas like 'God' and 'soul' that are effectively undefined and seem to be used with a lot of hand-waving. To claim that God explains everything really explains nothing, unless we understand how, and often introduces even more awkward questions. If God is eternal, what did he do before he created the universe? Or if he's not eternal, who created him? And who created his creators...? People can (and do) waffle on all day about such things, but never make any progress.

Science, on the other hand, sets itself small, well-defined questions to try to answer. That way we build up our understanding of the world from the bottom up. By contrast, religion could be described as a top-down process, where the big answer 'God' explains everything. But it seems to lack all the details of how things work.

If your child is ill, you could pray for God to heal her. But to my mind, you'd do better to call the doctor. He would note her symptoms, and, using not only his own experience but that of generations of earlier doctors and researchers, prescribe some suitable treatment.

Science is not perfect, and it never will be. It's been said that as the circle of knowledge expands, its contact with the unknown at the circumference of the circle also expands. But who knows? If the circle of knowledge is drawn on the surface of a sphere, the circumference will grow as the circle expands, but only up to a maximum - thereafter it shrinks, finally disappearing altogether when everything is known! ;)

If we did indeed know everything, then we would be godlike ourselves - but we would have achieved that state through the bottom-up process of science, rather than by some stroke of undefined magic.
 
A rainbow is a visual effect created by the properties of light and water and air.

And our having 3 types of cells in the eye that detect a narrow-ish range of wavelengths. Which is what I was getting at earlier and which also makes your argument even better. The stripes are an artifact of how we process the information.
 
rynner2 said:
If we did indeed know everything, then we would be godlike ourselves - but we would have achieved that state through the bottom-up process of science, rather than by some stroke of undefined magic.

I personally think that it is closer to magic than science :)

I only used the religious terms because everyone is familiar with them.

I think it is possible that many if not most of the religions are talking about this same thing, just using different details. Perhaps changing some of it to suit an agenda or due to cultural differences.

I also think it is possible that we ARE godlike, or at least a part of God (again just using this term for convenience) .
 
OneWingedBird said:
A rainbow is a visual effect created by the properties of light and water and air.

And our having 3 types of cells in the eye that detect a narrow-ish range of wavelengths. Which is what I was getting at earlier and which also makes your argument even better. The stripes are an artifact of how we process the information.
Science does tend to look at the whole process of consciousness and awareness, backwards. Explaining how something works, doesn't really explain why it has significance to us. Given the totality of full spectrum information out there in the Universe, the fact that we can grasp at and decode at least some of it, is not half as important as the realization that it wouldn't really have any value, whatsoever, if there wasn't an observer there to be aware of it.

Materialist science is a prime case of, never mind the quality, feel the width; the cost of everything the value of nothing. Reductionist science suggests that nothing has any real significance, that awareness and consciousness are nothing more than a fluke, an illusion, or at best, an accidental byproduct of electro chemical and mechanical processes. That's why there are many scientists who seem to believe that robots could be made to be better than humans. Awareness not required. Those are the miserable and poverty stricken limits of pure science.
 
Why Physicists Are Saying Consciousness Is A State Of Matter, Like a Solid, A Liquid Or A Gas
A new way of thinking about consciousness is sweeping through science like wildfire. Now physicists are using it to formulate the problem of consciousness in concrete mathematical terms for the first time

https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/5e7ed624986d

It's a long article, so I'm not going to repost it here. I don't really get it, but it's relevant to the topic.
 
Who is really asking? :lol:
Before you are born, you are no-thing, no-one, everything. "You" doesn't really exist. Buddhists talk about nothing ultimately having self-nature. "You" are just an extension of the universe, and nothing else. When "you" die, that illusion is gone and go back to previous state, except that information is not lost; it continues to affect the illusion we live in. Sheldrake mentions "Morphic Resonance" perhaps folks with "past lives" are just resonating with part of that information --"you" could go away as one and come back as many --even an artistic movement, or "many" could "go" and come back as one. The ego and individual just develops as a blossoming of the potential of matter.

http://www.blatner.com/adam/consctransf ... intro.html

<sets Kool aid down> ;)
 
kamalktk said:
Why Physicists Are Saying Consciousness Is A State Of Matter, Like a Solid, A Liquid Or A Gas
A new way of thinking about consciousness is sweeping through science like wildfire. Now physicists are using it to formulate the problem of consciousness in concrete mathematical terms for the first time

https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/5e7ed624986d

It's a long article, so I'm not going to repost it here. I don't really get it, but it's relevant to the topic.
I'm glad you posted. It's good to know that dedicated researchers are still looking into this, and finding handles they can get hold of and manipulate.

By contrast those who assert that science will never understand consciousness are preaching a philosophy of nihilism and despair.

Of course it's early days for this new metaphor of 'consciousness as a new state of matter' to have achieved much traction, but the fact that it can be put through the mathematical mangles of quantum physics and information theory is reassuring.

Of course, this analysis may someday blow the theory as it stands out of the water, but that's how science progresses - one door closes, but another one opens elsewhere....

As the article says in its closing words:
At the beginning of the 20th century, a group of young physicists embarked on a quest to explain a few strange but seemingly small anomalies in our understanding of the universe. In deriving the new theories of relativity and quantum mechanics, they ended up changing the way we comprehend the cosmos. These physcists, at least some of them, are now household names.

Could it be that a similar revolution is currently underway at the beginning of the 21st century?
 
NewScientist said:
Consciousness on-off switch discovered deep in brain

ONE moment you're conscious, the next you're not. For the first time, researchers have switched off consciousness by electrically stimulating a single brain area.

Scientists have been probing individual regions of the brain for over a century, exploring their function by zapping them with electricity and temporarily putting them out of action. Despite this, they have never been able to turn off consciousness – until now.

Although only tested in one person, the discovery suggests that a single area – the claustrum – might be integral to combining disparate brain activity into a seamless package of thoughts, sensations and emotions. It takes us a step closer to answering a problem that has confounded scientists and philosophers for millennia – namely how our conscious awareness arises.

Many theories abound but most agree that consciousness has to involve the integration of activity from several brain networks, allowing us to perceive our surroundings as one single unifying experience rather than isolated sensory perceptions.

One proponent of this idea was Francis Crick, a pioneering neuroscientist who earlier in his career had identified the structure of DNA. Just days before he died in July 2004, Crick was working on a paper that suggested our consciousness needs something akin to an orchestra conductor to bind all of our different external and internal perceptions together.

With his colleague Christof Koch, at the Allen Institute for Brain Science in Seattle, he hypothesised that this conductor would need to rapidly integrate information across distinct regions of the brain and bind together information arriving at different times. For example, information about the smell and colour of a rose, its name, and a memory of its relevance, can be bound into one conscious experience of being handed a rose on Valentine's day.

The pair suggested that the claustrum – a thin, sheet-like structure that lies hidden deep inside the brain – is perfectly suited to this job (Philosophical Transactions of The Royal Society B, doi.org/djjw5m).

It now looks as if Crick and Koch were on to something. In a study published last week, Mohamad Koubeissi at the George Washington University in Washington DC and his colleagues describe how they managed to switch a woman's consciousness off and on by stimulating her claustrum. The woman has epilepsy so the team were using deep brain electrodes to record signals from different brain regions to work out where her seizures originate. One electrode was positioned next to the claustrum, an area that had never been stimulated before.

When the team zapped the area with high frequency electrical impulses, the woman lost consciousness. She stopped reading and stared blankly into space, she didn't respond to auditory or visual commands and her breathing slowed. As soon as the stimulation stopped, she immediately regained consciousness with no memory of the event. The same thing happened every time the area was stimulated during two days of experiments (Epilepsy and Behavior, doi.org/tgn).


To confirm that they were affecting the woman's consciousness rather than just her ability to speak or move, the team asked her to repeat the word "house" or snap her fingers before the stimulation began. If the stimulation was disrupting a brain region responsible for movement or language she would have stopped moving or talking almost immediately. Instead, she gradually spoke more quietly or moved less and less until she drifted into unconsciousness. Since there was no sign of epileptic brain activity during or after the stimulation, the team is sure that it wasn't a side effect of a seizure.

Koubeissi thinks that the results do indeed suggest that the claustrum plays a vital role in triggering conscious experience. "I would liken it to a car," he says. "A car on the road has many parts that facilitate its movement – the gas, the transmission, the engine – but there's only one spot where you turn the key and it all switches on and works together. So while consciousness is a complicated process created via many structures and networks – we may have found the key."

http://www.newscientist.com/article...ch-discovered-deep-in-brain.html#.U7gr7ZRdWSq

There's more after the link. Exciting but based on a single case.
 
All we're about is the DNA trying to get the bacteria we're carrying into space.
That's all there is to it.
 
Isn't there multiple angles to this? Sure, science can explain - eventually - what goes to make up consciousness - they can do that for a dog, as well.

The real question is why do humans have, apparently uniquely, although possibly shared with dolphins, whales and higher apes - an acutely developed self-consciousness? It doesn't seem to be necessary - ants get by perfectly well without it.

Science does what, not really why. Of course there may be no 'why', but we are uniquely unable to come to terms with that - I bet we keep looking for the 'why' as long as any of us are left.
 
I'm not sure it has. Our ability to project human thought patterns onto animals continues unabated, but whether we have as yet any clue whatsoever how animals - let alone ants - think is debatable.

We deny, for example, the genetic transfer of learned behaviour and yet anyone who has a sheepdog knows it happens.

But for most people science is king, even when it blatantly fails to explain common occurrences. I don't suggest most proper scientists think that way, mind you, it is a product of media exaggeration and sensationalism.

I remember being told by a psychologist the number of things that would be undeveloped in my brain because I only had one eye and the connections between left eye right brain and vice versa - in fact, none of it was true, because the brain adapts in ways that makes the whole pseudo-scientific idea that given areas of brain do certain things at best a wild approximation.

The scientific method works fine in chemistry and pretty well in physics, but as you get further and further away from experiments in which you can control all the parameters, somewhere along the line it ceases to be science and becomes opinion. Often coupled with some pretty bizarre experiments that look like they'd be better off done by Dr. Moreau.
 
Cochise said:
Science does what, not really why. Of course there may be no 'why', but we are uniquely unable to come to terms with that - I bet we keep looking for the 'why' as long as any of us are left.
But often, detailed knowledge of the 'what' does provide the 'why'.

In other words, you need some basic facts before you can start "looking for the 'why'".

Someone who is an expert at how brain cells work, and how the eyes use multiple processing sub-routines to create what we experience as vision, etc, is better placed to wonder about the nature of consciousness than someone who only knows that the brain is a big lump of grey matter.

Every eye has a blind spot, but we're hardly ever conscious of it. Consciousness seems to be very selective about which aspects of reality we experience. A lot of stuff we don't need to know, so we only get the big picture of the relevent stuff. But we only know this by studying the details of how things work. Knowing the details helps us understand the big picture better.

I get impatient with those who whinge that "science only does this, or only does that", but who fail to provide anything better by way of a methodology. As Cochise says, "Of course there may be no 'why'..." ;)

So we work with what we have, and only consider abstruse speculations if they offer a hint of a practical possiblity of further progress.
 
garrick92 said:
Cochise said:
I'm not sure it has. Our ability to project human thought patterns onto animals continues unabated, but whether we have as yet any clue whatsoever how animals - let alone ants - think is debatable.

I was referring back specifically to self-awareness in animals. The idea was dismissed out of hand when I was growing up 30 odd years ago. Now we accept that dolphins and some primates are self-aware. Who's to say others won't join that list?

Its good for them to have a porpoise in life.
 
rynner2 said:
Cochise said:
Science does what, not really why. Of course there may be no 'why', but we are uniquely unable to come to terms with that - I bet we keep looking for the 'why' as long as any of us are left.
But often, detailed knowledge of the 'what' does provide the 'why'.

In other words, you need some basic facts before you can start "looking for the 'why'".

Someone who is an expert at how brain cells work, and how the eyes use multiple processing sub-routines to create what we experience as vision, etc, is better placed to wonder about the nature of consciousness than someone who only knows that the brain is a big lump of grey matter.

Every eye has a blind spot, but we're hardly ever conscious of it. Consciousness seems to be very selective about which aspects of reality we experience. A lot of stuff we don't need to know, so we only get the big picture of the relevent stuff. But we only know this by studying the details of how things work. Knowing the details helps us understand the big picture better.

I get impatient with those who whinge that "science only does this, or only does that", but who fail to provide anything better by way of a methodolgy. As Cochise says, "Of course there may be no 'why'..." ;)

So we work with what we have, and only consider abstruse speculations if they offer a hint of a practical possiblity of further progress.
I agree with everything you said here, rynner. I'd go further and posit that there is no experience / phenomenon human or otherwise that can't be explained through physics or biology. Science doesn't offer all the answers, but we'll get there. And those answers that science does have can be relied on. Whether you like those answers or not is personal. I do sometimes wonder, quite sincerely, whether there are walking, working members of our species who are not conscious of consciousness at all. The sociopaths and such. We often hear that line "they just don't get it", suggesting not only a continuum of consciousness, but of what people are conscious of... but perhaps I'm confusing consciousness with conscience here. It isn't a single identifiable item on the menu of what makes us different from our coinhabitants of the planet, but rather an area of fluidity, and not just within the species, but within each individual. It isn't something science can yet isolate due to the variance, but it is fun to reflect on and contemplate. Less urgent than a cure for cancer or AIDS perhaps.
 
skinny said:
I agree with everything you said here, rynner.
Well, that's made a nice start to my day! :D

Usually I get responses like "Yeah, but...", so thank you for that!
 
All right, if you want to be so determined - what was there before the big bang? What is outside the universe? How many dimensions are there? Science has no answers to these questions, only guesses. I accept that new techniques might be developed that would give us insight, but the challenge to answer any one of those questions in a provable way is probably greater than the whole scientific oeuvre to the present day.

Science is good at explaining mechanisms you can locate and measure, including chemical mechanisms. It is not good at explaining why. It can't even explain why there is life on this planet and not (so far ) on any of the others in our solar system,. Can a human even understand life that is created in an entirely different environment? Would we recognise it if we saw it?

Since we seem to be approaching a post-scientific age where the actual experimental proof is replaced by statistics and computer models - and in some cases by simple assertion and group-think - its debatable how long science is going to progress. In the worst case it may even regress, as it has done as previous civilisations have gone into decline. Carl Sagan warned of this before his death, and it seems to me his warning has not been heeded.

“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”

Walter Heisienberg
 
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