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Where Will Our Clean Energy Come From?

INT21 said:
In the past nationalised industries have been plagued by disruption caused by unions who used them to hold the country to ransom.
I propose the enactment of a law making it illegal to interfere with the nation's vital infrastructure.
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Once again, my poor memory has coughed up something...I thought we already had a law like that in the UK?
 
...Once again, my poor memory has coughed up something...I thought we already had a law like that in the UK?..

Sadly we don't.

If we did it would not be possible for groups of people to bring our rail system to a standstill. Or to be able to impede the ability of others to go about their lawful business.

INT21
 
Artificial photosynthesis to produce hydrocarbon fuel is potentially a very useful technology, but it adds inefficiency to the energy flow. Converting energy from one form to another always reduces the efficiency of a process. Using sunlight as a source of electricity is more efficient for many purposes. However hydrocarbon fuels (especially kerosine) are very energy dense, so they are the best choice of fuel for aircraft and other vehicles where weight is a major consideration.

Artificial photosynthesis could also be used to suck carbon out of the air to create plastics and other carbon-based construction materials, such as carbon nanotube; the hardest known substance, aggregated carbon nanorods, could be used for construction to replace steel and concrete. Extraction of carbon from the air is such a potentially useful process that (in a couple of hundred years time) we might be forced to start digging up kerogen out of the crust again in order to replace the diminishing reserves of CO2 in the air. Never mind global warming; the problem in the long run would be CO2 depletion, global cooling and plant CO2 starvation.
 
Eburacum,

..Extraction of carbon from the air is such a potentially useful process that (in a couple of hundred years time) we might be forced to start digging up kerogen out of the crust again in order to replace the diminishing reserves of CO2 in the air...

200 years is five generations away. We need solutions now.

INT21
 
^Yep.^
And yet we pussyfoot around, dragging our heels about building nuclear power stations.
Hinkley Point's planned station has been at the hot air/planning stage for 20 years. Bloody ridiculous.
 
The critical point to consider is energy return, i.e., the amount of energy received in return for what is invested:

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3786

Most sources, especially those involving alternative, clean, or "free" energy, have low returns. That's because oil and material resources are needed to produce them.

For example, solar panels plus lots of components, infrastructure, and even consumer goods that will use electricity generated require oil and various minerals. The whole process of mining, manufacturing, shipping, and power distribution involves oil, and not just for energy but even for petrochemicals which are used for thousands of applications.

It is possible to engage in a global transition to energy that does not involve oil, but it will require extensive coordination and a lot of sacrifices:

http://www.businessinsider.com/131-years-to-replace-oil-2010-11

which is not possible in a global capitalist economy that requires the opposite of diminishing returns. That is, higher energy returns needed each time fueled by increasing credit creation and the drive for middle class conveniences:

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-22956470

And that has to take place in a world where limits to growth has already been reached:

https://theconversation.com/if-ever...age-the-earth-would-still-be-in-trouble-43905
 
Ralfy,

...And that has to take place in a world where limits to growth has already been reached:..

But the limits of population growth show no sign of ever being reached.

Sad but true.



I am going to throw a grenade into this conversation. Please put on your kevlar tuxedo and hard hat.

The only system that will ever sort things out is Chinese style communism.

And while you are all reaching for your defibrillators, I know it isn't practical in the West.

Why do I say this ? Because in a one party system the people who are in power can say, 'We want three new power stations to replace the coal fired ones. Go and build them'.

No argument.

And you need to remember that there is no such thing as money. It is just a token system to enable the transfer of goods and services between people, A system of keeping account.
So you really don't need to worry how much something will cost. If you need it for the future, get on with building it.

(Pause to readjust my red flag)

I should add that I am not naive. And am perfectly aware that, people being what they are, we will fart about for years and get nowhere.

Nuclear is the way to go for producing mega Watts of power consistently. It is a dangerous technology, but we need to get on top of that, not hide from it.

There are many things that can be done with the renewable sources. The big stumbling block seems to be storage.
Maybe it is time to build a few more Dynorwic (sic) type power stations.

All things cost money to build and are demanding of materials and labour. But when they are built, well, they are built. And you can use them. Use them to build bigger and better things. Ad infinitum.

Mythopoeika is correct. We have the technology. And the Germans say it all with 'Vorsprung durch technik'

Which I loosely translate as 'advancement though technology.

Can we do it ?

YES WE CAN.

INT21
 
INT21 said:
Ralfy,

...And that has to take place in a world where limits to growth has already been reached:..

But the limits of population growth show no sign of ever being reached.

Sad but true.

I am going to throw a grenade into this conversation. Please put on your kevlar tuxedo and hard hat.

The only system that will ever sort things out is Chinese style communism.
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I have been gradually coming to that same conclusion...but for a world that remains a closed system.

If, on the other hand, we decide to 'go full tilt' and become a space-faring species, the limits are off. We can continue to maintain our ridiculous capitalist idea of unlimited growth and making more babies. In such a scenario, though, the only serious energy option is nuclear (of some description - when Uranium gets scarce, we start using Thorium or fusion if it ever becomes viable).

This is why we have to go into space.
 
Here's an article to consider in light of the topic:

"Limits to Growth was right. New research shows we're nearing collapse"

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ight-new-research-shows-were-nearing-collapse

The gist is that population increase (and subsequently, a slowdown due to greater prosperity) is dependent on increasing output per capita for food production, manufacturing, and services. These, in turn, are dependent on availability of resources, including energy.

Availability of resources has been on a downtrend because of physical limits combined with diminishing returns. That is, we spend increasing amounts of energy and resources to find less oil each time. The same is taking place for copper, iron ore, etc.

Because economic output per capita is dependent on that, then at some point output will reach a peak. The result will be increased poverty, which in turn will cause the birth rate to go up. But less output will also mean less food, medicine, etc., thus causing the death rate to rise as well. Ultimately, the latter will exceed the former, causing the population to fall.

Meanwhile, environmental damage will take its toll, leading to pollution and species die-offs. The damage may decrease if the human population decreases considerably. Global warming was not considered in the model because it was published in 1972.

Throughout the years, most did not support the forecasts, arguing that the world would achieve a space age or find more technofixes to solve them by the twenty-first century. Instead, we've seen the effects of peak oil, continued environmental damage, global warming, chronic financial crises, and increasing conflict. These multiple crises amplifying each other coupled with an economy that is mostly controlled by a few and whose main source of wealth consists of digital information stored in hard drives, may make any global effort in cooperating to lessen conflict, deal with global warming, and sacrifice to deal with limits to growth difficult.

On the 40th anniversary of studies concerning limits to growth, researchers discovered that real data during the same four decades tracked the forecasts. Will they continue to do so? I think the only way we can argue otherwise is to show that resource availability trends as shown in real data will reverse very soon. I'm not certain about that.
 
Ralfy,

So how does your article account for the massive and continuous growth in population of some of the poorest countries in the world. The ones that are causing problems with migration ?

INT21
 
Rynner2,

I would have no objection to a mod moving those two or three post to somewhere more appropriate.

INT21
 
INT21 said:
Ralfy,

So how does your article account for the massive and continuous growth in population of some of the poorest countries in the world. The ones that are causing problems with migration ?

INT21
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The use of oil to increase food production and manufacturing across more than five decades (as seen in the Green Revolution and other measures), leading to low infant mortality rates and higher life expectancy rates, in turn contributing to a population boom.
 
World first for Shetlands in tidal power breakthrough

Nova Innovation said it had deployed the world’s first fully operational array of tidal power turbines in the Bluemull Sound between the islands of Unst and Yell in the north of Shetland, where the North Sea meets the Atlantic.

It switched on the second of five 100kW turbines due to be installed in the sound this month, sending electricity on a commercial basis into Shetland’s local grid.

Existing tidal schemes use single power plants or installations rather than a chain of separate turbines. A French company, OpenHydro, says it too is very close to linking two tidal machines, off Brittany, to build a more powerful 1MW array.

After a series of commercial failures in Scotland’s nascent marine power industry, including the collapse of two wave power firms, Pelarmis and Aquamarine, Nova Innovation’s announcement was applauded by environmental groups.

“With some of the most powerful tides in Europe, Scotland is well placed to lead in developing this promising technology, which will help to cut climate emissions and create green jobs right across the country.”
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Hunk,

What about Strangford Loch ?

INT21
 
hunck said:
World first for Shetlands in tidal power breakthrough

"Nova Innovation said it had deployed the world’s first fully operational array of tidal power turbines in the Bluemull Sound between the islands of Unst and Yell in the north of Shetland, where the North Sea meets the Atlantic."
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I've not heard of Bluemull Sound before, although I have sailed around the north of Shetland, so I must have passed both ends of it! I don't recall reading about it either as a potential tidal power site. But there are various features to be considered apart from the strength of the tidal streams. The nature of the sea bed will affect how easy it it would be to fix turbines there, and the general shelter provided by the Topography will control how easy it is to install and maintain the turbines. Bluemull is well sheltered from most directions apart from the north.

Recent articles:

http://www.machinery-market.co.uk/news/13279/digital.aspx

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Scotland#Tidal_power
(This does mention Strangford Lough as well.
I have sailed there. The tidal stream sets up a whirlpool on the eastern shore of the entrance, rotating CW on the flood tide, and ACW on the ebb.)
 
There was a documentary on tidal power some time ago that showed the Strangford Loch generator.

It also covered Salter's ducks and a few other items.

INT21
 
The point of the Bluemull Sound story is that it's apparently the first time more than one turbine has been linked together in an array. That's the breakthrough.

I don't know about the Strangford Loch one but it sounds like it's probably a single generator.
 
hunck said:
The point of the Bluemull Sound story is that it's apparently the first time more than one turbine has been linked together in an array. That's the breakthrough.
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Maybe the breakthrough is doing it underwater, because Hydro electric power stations usually use several turbines (and have done for years), and I don't suppose they use just one at a time! :twisted:
 
rynner2 said:
Maybe the breakthrough is doing it underwater, because Hydro electric power stations usually use several turbines (and have done for years), and I don't suppose they use just one at a time! :twisted:
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Yeah, I assume it's the underwater part that's the breakthrough.
 
I'm going to break with etiquette here and not provide quotes and links, because I'm in a truck heading for Cornwall with a dying phone battery. But solar roadways, which I'm sure we're mentioned earlier in this thread, are going to be installed on a trial basis in some places in the States. Honesty, I thought the idea was fanciful, and was never sure it wasn't a scam to relieve potential investors of their spare cash (like Steorn's Orbo), but it looks as though they're going for it. Just google news for solar roadways for more info.
 
PeteByrdie said:
I'm going to break with etiquette here and not provide quotes and links, because I'm in a truck heading for Cornwall with a dying phone battery. But solar roadways, which I'm sure we're mentioned earlier in this thread, are going to be installed on a trial basis in some places in the States. Honesty, I thought the idea was fanciful, and was never sure it wasn't a scam to relieve potential investors of their spare cash (like Steorn's Orbo), but it looks as though they're going for it. Just google news for solar roadways for more info.
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I'm amazed that they're even thinking of a trial.
They obviously haven't done a serious cost-benefit-efficiency analysis.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=thunderfoot+solar+roadways

 
The Guardian claims an Exclusive for this story:
Mysterious factory break-in raises suspicions about Chinese visit
A burglary at an innovative Scottish wave-power company went forgotten, until a very similar project appeared in China
Ewen MacAskill
Monday 10 October 2016 13.49 BST

It was an unusual burglary, in which four or five laptops were stolen from a Scottish renewable energy manufacturer in the dead of a March night in 2011. So innovative was the company that it had been been visited by a 60-strong delegation led by China’s then vice-premier only two months before.

Nothing else was taken from the company and the crime, while irritating, went unsolved and forgotten – until a few years later pictures began emerging that showed a remarkably similar project manufactured in the world’s most populous country.

Then some people who were involved in the Scottish company, Pelamis Wave Power, started making a connection between the break-in and the politician’s visit, which was rounded off with dinner and whisky tasting at Edinburgh Castle hosted by the then Scottish secretary, Michael Moore.

Max Carcas, who was business development director at Pelamis until 2012, said the similarities between the Scottish and Chinese products were striking. Speaking publicly for the first time, he said: “Some of the details may be different but they are clearly testing a Pelamis concept.”



The Scottish Pelamis wave-power device.



The Chinese device.

It might be that China’s engineers had been working along roughly the same lines as the UK engineers. Or it may be that China attempted to replicate the design based on pictures of the Pelamis project freely available on the web.

Or there could be a darker explanation: that Pelamis was targeted by China, which has been repeatedly accused of pursuing an aggressive industrial espionage strategy. The answer matters, given security concerns raised by the government’s award of the Hinkley Point nuclear contract to China.

etc...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...reak-in-raises-suspicions-about-chinese-visit
 
Simple solution: stop buying stuff from China.
 
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