Where Will Our Clean Energy Come From?

[Mythopoeika]

They own the patent for phallus-shaped thingies?

Oh dear, we're doomed.

 

[Coal]

Over a decade ago I was telling people that China will take any IP without hesitation, it's part of their business culture. Everyone I told said "No they won't" or "We can protect it". They were all wrong.

 

[rynner2]

Penzance's Jubilee Pool will be heated by geothermal energy thanks to £1.4 million European grant
By Tom_Gainey | Posted: November 24, 2016
[Video]

Cornwall's iconic Jubilee Pool will be the first facility of its kind in the country to be partially heated thanks to energy drawn from so-called hot rock beneath the ground thanks to a £1.4 million European grant.
The Penzance project will by run by industry experts Geothermal Engineering Ltd (GEL) and the local community for the lido which has recently undergone major renovations and repairs after suffering massive damage in the infamous 2014 winter storms.

Visitors will be able to enjoy a section of the pool which will be heated using the geothermal emergy while the majority of the space will maintain its normal temperature.

"Following on from the significant efforts to relaunch the Jubilee Pool after the storm damage of 2014 I am personally excited by the potential for this innovative project to extend the operating season of a small section of the pool into both late spring and early autumn," said mayor of Penzance Mike Lovegrove.
"Should the project be delivered successfully and realise its indicated potential, it will help promote the Jubilee Pool and Penzance in a new way, at the forefront of the implementation and use of green technologies."

Geothermal energy will heat a section of Jubilee Pool in 2018.

GEL will drill and develop a geothermal well on the site thanks to the £1.4m European Regional Development Fund. Private investment has also been secured for this stage of the project, leaving approximately £500,000 funding still to be found for the final works to the iconic structure.

GEL argues that while a "ground-breaking" project like this did have high initial costs, once it was installed hot water bills and concerns about fluctuating energy prices will become "a thing of the past".
It also said the use of geothermal energy drastically reduced emissions of greenhouse gases and that the learning and expertise gained from this project can be exported elsewhere, giving Cornwall the chance to be a leader in geothermal technology and installation.

Ryan Law, of GEL, said: "This is a very exciting opportunity for us in Cornwall.
"Jubilee Pool will be the first deep geothermal heat project in the UK for over a quarter of a century. We hope that the project will help to promote both the pool as a destination in itself and deep geothermal energy across Cornwall and beyond. "

Officials hope that the outstanding balance for this plan will be secured with the help of fans of the project through a fundraising effort. It is also hoped the project will allow the pool to be open for a longer season which will improve its sustainability and provide economic benefits for the Penzance community.

etc...

http://www.cornwalllive.com/penzanc...ropean-grant/story-29931664-detail/story.html

 

[Mythopoeika]

If this is true and not BS, there is hope that diesel vehicles could be phased out:

http://www.valuewalk.com/2016/12/1874240/

Nikola Shows Hydrogen Fuel Cell Truck, Production In 2020
Nikola Motor Company just unveiled a huge class 8 truck which will run on hydrogen fuel cells. Nikola claimed that the truck’s operational range will be as much as 1,200 miles (1,900 km), and it will be released in 2020.

 

[INT21]

Mythopoeika,

But there is no hydrogen infrastructure yet.

Talk on the radio about Diesel cars being outlawed in for major cities. Bad move.

Not thought through.

INT21

 

[Mythopoeika]

Mythopoeika,

But there is no hydrogen infrastructure yet.

Talk on the radio about Diesel cars being outlawed in for major cities. Bad move.

Not thought through.

INT21

I know that and agree with you. Outlawing diesel in cities before establishing a viable replacement is a foolish, virtue-signalling move.
However...now that someone has produced a proof-of-concept vehicle that may be good enough to replace diesel, maybe this will be the start of the building of new infrastructure. Only time will tell. It's a long road ahead.

 

[INT21]

It's a long road ahead.

Particularly if there are no hydrogen refueling stations on it.

I'm sure that many of the perceived Diesel emission problems can be over come.
Cyclone particle collectors in the exhaust system will help.

I can get very low emission values from my Diesel; Just run on Bio Diesel.

And, naturally, the Hydrogen has to be produced from somewhere.

INT21

 

[Mythopoeika]

I have a very low emissions diesel car too (designed to be such) - but The People In Charge may decide to blanket ban all diesels, including ones like mine.

BTW, there isn't enough biodiesel to go around.

 

[INT21]

..BTW, there isn't enough biodiesel to go around...

True, but I don't do many miles per year myself. And mine is home brew.

The problem with truck emissions on the motorways can be solved by using electric motors and overhead catanery supply as is used in some mining areas of South Africa.
Electric on the hi-way and switch to Diesel on the urban routes.

INT21

 

[Coal]

..BTW, there isn't enough biodiesel to go around...

True, but I don't do many miles per year myself. And mine is home brew.

The problem with truck emissions on the motorways can be solved by using electric motors and overhead catanery supply as is used in some mining areas of South Africa.
Electric on the hi-way and switch to Diesel on the urban routes.

INT21

All you need then is the electricity...which has to be generated somewhere. As things stand no emissions problem is solved by converting stuff to run on electricity, as that electricity is still generated in large part by a fossil fuel based central grid.

It's just moving pollution somewhere else, so it's fixing a symptom not the underlying issue , i.e. "there is no large scale renewable technology that can directly replace main line power stations".

 

[INT21]

So nuclear is the only answer to bulk energy.

However, I've always believed that the real problem is humanities insatiable desire to use far more electricity than they actually need. We are tackling the problem from the wrong end.

A home grown example of this is that my wife insists in walking around the house in very lightweight clothes. And before any of you get the wrong impression, I don't mean neglige's. Just very thin cotton.

Then she cranks up the central heating because she feels cold.
The next thing is she complains about the high cost of gas and electricity.
It drives me insane. I feel like grabbing her by the neck and shouting in her ear ' Then put on some reasonable clothes you stupid cow.' That would not be an acceptable course of action though.

In a nutshell, waste is the real problem, not supply.

INT21

 

[Mythopoeika]

So nuclear is the only answer to bulk energy.

Yep.

However, I've always believed that the real problem is humanities insatiable desire to use far more electricity than they actually need. We are tackling the problem from the wrong end.

A home grown example of this is that my wife insists in walking around the house in very lightweight clothes. And before any of you get the wrong impression, I don't mean neglige's. Just very thin cotton.

Then she cranks up the central heating because she feels cold.
The next thing is she complains about the high cost of gas and electricity.
It drives me insane. I feel like grabbing her by the neck and shouting in her ear ' Then put on some reasonable clothes you stupid cow.' That would not be an acceptable course of action though.

At the risk of inadvertently sounding sexist, this is probably true of most women.
I seem to recall reading about research that found women prefer to hike the temperature at work, whereas men prefer slightly lower temperatures. From my own experience of working in lots of offices, I found this to be true.

In a nutshell, waste is the real problem, not supply.

Indeed, that is certainly one of the big problems.
I am simply amazed that so many people leave appliances and lights switched on all over the place. My neighbour behind my house has all of his lights blazing all night long. His leccy bill must be huge.

 

[INT21]

...whereas men prefer slightly lower temperatures...

'According to the Kinsey report
Mr Average Man you know.
Prefers his lovey dovy to court
when the temperature is low'.

INT21

 

[Peripart]

It drives me insane. I feel like grabbing her by the neck and shouting in her ear ' Then put on some reasonable clothes you stupid cow.' That would not be an acceptable course of action though.

Your restraint is admirable. In your heart, I am sure that you know that not throttling your wife is the correct action.

 

[rynner2]

Cryogenic storage offers hope for renewable energy
By Yasmin Ali Science reporter

The world's largest cold energy storage plant is being commissioned at a site near Manchester.
The cryogenic energy facility stores power from renewables or off-peak generation by chilling air into liquid form.
When the liquid air warms up it expands and can drive a turbine to make electricity. [Simples!]

The 5MW plant near Manchester can power up to 5,000 homes for around three hours.
The company behind the scheme, Highview Power Storage, believes that the technology has great potential to be scaled up for long-term use with green energy sources.

Electricity demand varies, influenced by factors like time of day and season. The National Grid is prepared for surges in demand, with power stations on stand-by ready to crank up the power.
However, dealing with these peaks and troughs will become increasingly difficult as coal-fired power stations close down and more intermittent renewable energy like wind and solar comes online. In 2015 renewables provided almost a quarter of UK electricity.

The intermittent nature of green sources has seen researchers focus on trying to improve energy storage.
Pumped hydropower can provide large amounts of energy for long durations, and lithium-ion batteries can respond to demand in milliseconds making them ideal for portable electronic devices and electric vehicles.
But hydropower depends on specific geographies as water has to be pumped uphill, and batteries currently cannot be scaled in a cost effective way to store energy for a town or city.

"Our technology is a bit like a locatable version of a pumped hydro system. Anywhere that needs large scale long-duration storage, that might be to help integrate an offshore wind farm, a system like ours can help achieve that," Gareth Brett from Highview Power explained, during a visit to the Manchester cryogenic site.

"5MW is a bit small for this technology; anything from 10MW and up is the sort of scale we're talking about.
"We've already designed a plant that can do 200MW /1200MWh, that's enough to keep a city going for 6 hours."

Cryogenic storage works by using renewable or off-peak electricity to cool air down to -190 degrees C, which turns it into a liquid.
It's then stored in an insulated tank, similar to a large thermos flask. To release the stored energy, the liquid air is exposed to ambient conditions causing it to expand back into a gas. The volume increase is huge, about 700 times, which is used to drive a turbine to generate electricity.

Highview Power's demonstrator plant is next to Pilsworth landfill gas generation site. The large insulated tanks sit across the road from a collection of gas engines. These engines burn methane gas produced from decomposing rubbish to generate electricity. The waste heat from this process is captured and used to increase the efficiency of the cryogenic process.

Dr Sheridan Few, Research Associate at the Grantham Institute, Imperial College London, described a phenomenon unique to this technology.
"There's the storage of the energy, and the generating of the energy. You can make use of waste cold and waste heat... because you're putting both electrical and thermal energy in, the amount of electrical energy you get out, can in some cases end up being more than the electrical energy you put in."

Alongside the provision of energy storage, this technology can tackle the issues of waste heat which is a by-product of many industrial process. Waste cold, as an example, can be found at liquefied natural gas (LNG) terminals.

While cryogenic storage may be one of the solutions to help the future supply of electricity, there are also new approaches to controlling demand.
"One of the most current issues is understanding the demand side," Dr Jenifer Baxter, Head of Energy and Environment at the Institution of Engineering and Technology, told the BBC.
"We tend to just produce electricity to meet the demand. Once we understand demand, we will have more confidence in deploying technologies."

Demand side response, the concept of adjusting usage in response to the available supply of electricity, could work easily alongside other innovations like cryogenic energy storage.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-37902773

 

[Mythopoeika]

That sounds promising.

 

[Coastaljames]

It isn't what fuel we burn that is the problem- it's the fact that we burn fuel.

 

[rynner2]

It isn't what fuel we burn that is the problem- it's the fact that we burn fuel.

The article I posted is about the storage of RENEWABLE energy. No fuel burning is involved.

 

[Coastaljames]

^ Sorry mate was thinking aloud really in regards to the issues now being talked about re. diesel.

 

[Coal]

Cryogenic storage offers hope for renewable energy
By Yasmin Ali Science reporter

The world's largest cold energy storage plant is being commissioned at a site near Manchester.
The cryogenic energy facility stores power from renewables or off-peak generation by chilling air into liquid form.
When the liquid air warms up it expands and can drive a turbine to make electricity. [Simples!]

The 5MW plant near Manchester can power up to 5,000 homes for around three hours.
The company behind the scheme, Highview Power Storage, believes that the technology has great potential to be scaled up for long-term use with green energy sources.

Electricity demand varies, influenced by factors like time of day and season. The National Grid is prepared for surges in demand, with power stations on stand-by ready to crank up the power.
However, dealing with these peaks and troughs will become increasingly difficult as coal-fired power stations close down and more intermittent renewable energy like wind and solar comes online. In 2015 renewables provided almost a quarter of UK electricity.

The intermittent nature of green sources has seen researchers focus on trying to improve energy storage.
Pumped hydropower can provide large amounts of energy for long durations, and lithium-ion batteries can respond to demand in milliseconds making them ideal for portable electronic devices and electric vehicles.
But hydropower depends on specific geographies as water has to be pumped uphill, and batteries currently cannot be scaled in a cost effective way to store energy for a town or city.

"Our technology is a bit like a locatable version of a pumped hydro system. Anywhere that needs large scale long-duration storage, that might be to help integrate an offshore wind farm, a system like ours can help achieve that," Gareth Brett from Highview Power explained, during a visit to the Manchester cryogenic site.

"5MW is a bit small for this technology; anything from 10MW and up is the sort of scale we're talking about.
"We've already designed a plant that can do 200MW /1200MWh, that's enough to keep a city going for 6 hours."

Cryogenic storage works by using renewable or off-peak electricity to cool air down to -190 degrees C, which turns it into a liquid.
It's then stored in an insulated tank, similar to a large thermos flask. To release the stored energy, the liquid air is exposed to ambient conditions causing it to expand back into a gas. The volume increase is huge, about 700 times, which is used to drive a turbine to generate electricity.

Highview Power's demonstrator plant is next to Pilsworth landfill gas generation site. The large insulated tanks sit across the road from a collection of gas engines. These engines burn methane gas produced from decomposing rubbish to generate electricity. The waste heat from this process is captured and used to increase the efficiency of the cryogenic process.

Dr Sheridan Few, Research Associate at the Grantham Institute, Imperial College London, described a phenomenon unique to this technology.
"There's the storage of the energy, and the generating of the energy. You can make use of waste cold and waste heat... because you're putting both electrical and thermal energy in, the amount of electrical energy you get out, can in some cases end up being more than the electrical energy you put in."

Alongside the provision of energy storage, this technology can tackle the issues of waste heat which is a by-product of many industrial process. Waste cold, as an example, can be found at liquefied natural gas (LNG) terminals.

While cryogenic storage may be one of the solutions to help the future supply of electricity, there are also new approaches to controlling demand.
"One of the most current issues is understanding the demand side," Dr Jenifer Baxter, Head of Energy and Environment at the Institution of Engineering and Technology, told the BBC.
"We tend to just produce electricity to meet the demand. Once we understand demand, we will have more confidence in deploying technologies."

Demand side response, the concept of adjusting usage in response to the available supply of electricity, could work easily alongside other innovations like cryogenic energy storage.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-37902773

I note there are no figures on the energy loss for this conversion/storage.

(It always seems a good idea, but to give some idea, if you generated hydrogen/oxygen by using electricity and then burn it to make electricity, you end up with around 25% of the energy you started with...)

 

[rynner2]

I note there are no figures on the energy loss for this conversion/storage.

The article does say:
You can make use of waste cold and waste heat... because you're putting both electrical and thermal energy in, the amount of electrical energy you get out, can in some cases end up being more than the electrical energy you put in.

But as with many such things, losses can probably be reduced by scaling the thing up in size.
"5MW is a bit small for this technology; anything from 10MW and up is the sort of scale we're talking about.
"We've already designed a plant that can do 200MW /1200MWh, that's enough to keep a city going for 6 hours."

But the real beauty of this is that it's a way of 'saving' renewable energy when there's a glut, to use when there's none.
For example, wind and wave power can fluctuate from 'too much' to 'not any'.
Tidal power is more predictable, but it still varies (for underwater turbines) from none at slack water to maximum at half flood or half ebb.
And Spring tides would provide much more power than Neap tides.

 

[Coal]

You can make use of waste cold and waste heat... because you're putting both electrical and thermal energy in, the amount of electrical energy you get out, can in some cases end up being more than the electrical energy you put in.

Weasel words though, "some cases". What's the overall efficiency in normal use? Not mentioned!

But as with many such things, losses can probably be reduced by scaling the thing up in size.
"5MW is a bit small for this technology; anything from 10MW and up is the sort of scale we're talking about.
"We've already designed a plant that can do 200MW /1200MWh, that's enough to keep a city going for 6 hours."

But the real beauty of this is that it's a way of 'saving' renewable energy when there's a glut, to use when there's none.
For example, wind and wave power can fluctuate from 'too much' to 'not any'.
Tidal power is more predictable, but it still varies (for underwater turbines) from none at slack water to maximum at half flood or half ebb.
And Spring tides would provide much more power than Neap tides.

Quite, but an inefficient/unreliable generation media coupled to a less efficient storage system doesn't seem like a long term solution to me. It's pandering to the gods of "renewable energy" and we'd be better off as a race investing all this time and effort into making nuclear fission safe and trying to make nuclear fusion work. We're never going to run the energy requirements of the whole planet on wind turbines and solar panels, not even close to.

 

[kamalktk]

We're never going to run the energy requirements of the whole planet on wind turbines and solar panels, not even close to.

Portugal ran for four days this year entirely on solar/wind/ran. Costa Rica ran for months, twice. Germany has gotten up to 87% for a day. Denmark's wind farms already produce 140% of electric demand. So we have entire countries already closing in on that goal.

 

[INT21]

@Coal,

'Hear, Hear'.

INT21

 

[INT21]

You can get great benefits from renewable s etc. and I am a huge fan.

But they need managing.

And people do not want to be bothered.

This shows up in a study carried out in India where a few villages were set up to use bio digesters to produce gas. After a while most of them failed simply because no one could be bothered to maintain them.

For technically minded people small scale energy systems can work, but most can't keep up the enthusiasm of checking batteries etc. They just want to throw a switch.

INT21

 

[Coal]

Portugal ran for four days this year entirely on solar/wind/ran. Costa Rica ran for months, twice. Germany has gotten up to 87% for a day. Denmark's wind farms already produce 140% of electric demand. So we have entire countries already closing in on that goal.

So, in summary a few small non industrial nations have managed to get by for the most part and once Germany nearly did for a day. 'Big woop'.

 

[Mythopoeika]

So, in summary a few small non industrial nations have managed to get by for the most part and once Germany nearly did for a day. 'Big woop'.

Well, it is early days.

 

[kamalktk]

So, in summary a few small non industrial nations have managed to get by for the most part and once Germany nearly did for a day. 'Big woop'.

We are using non-renewable stuff faster than the planet is producing it. Civilization is only going to run long term at the level renewables can support. So we need to get to 100% or civilization on as we know it ends when we run out and we have to return to a level supported by renewables.

 

[Mythopoeika]

We are using non-renewable stuff faster than the planet is producing it. Civilization is only going to run long term at the level renewables can support. So we need to get to 100% or civilization on as we know it ends when we run out and we have to return to a level supported by renewables.

Hence the need to curb the huge rise in the world's population.

 

[Coal]

We are using non-renewable stuff faster than the planet is producing it. Civilization is only going to run long term at the level renewables can support. So we need to get to 100% or civilization on as we know it ends when we run out and we have to return to a level supported by renewables.

History tells us that civilisation will do as civilization wants, not what any of us 'think' is right. We provide the power 'it needs' or we all fight to the death for the dregs. I know which I prefer.

If the planet is going to overheat in the next 10/20/50 years (pick one), and fossil fuels are running out (which by definition they must be), nuclear power is large-scale, decently priced and will last for a millennia. Nuclear NOW will make a measurable difference to CO2 emissions.

(It also provides capacity for off-load generation of hydrogen.)

Complaints about the potential for accidents 'so we'd better not', is an argument to fear and frankly, is selfish when compared with the large scale death and destruction that large scale power shortages would cause.

The people who keep opposing nuclear on arguments to safety (based on a few past incidents) are wilfully missing the point big time. It's almost as if they'd rather 50% of the human race died to prove their point that 'renewables' are 'good'.

I'd prefer, myself, to keep everyone alive and thriving and if that means nuclear fission*, fine by me.

*properly regulated and designed to be fail-to-safe obvs.