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Why Always A Native American?

I always groan when Mysterious Universe does an Episode on NDEs, even though its theoretically a cool topic, it's probably my least favorite paranormal topic next to ghosts. I just find that those two are so riddled with repeated tropes that I get bored. I want to like them though...
 
I've recently been reading about Silver Birch, a spirit guide who 'spoke' through medium Maurice Barbanell. There are a few books filled with his teachings. He supposedly answered questions via the medium, and had this to say when asked who he was:
'Silver Birch is not my name. It is the name of the Indian spirit I use as a transformer that enables me to lower my vibration and reach your world. The name does not matter. I have not revealed the name I bore on earth because it has no value so far as I am concerned.
I am not a Red Indian. I belong to another race in another part of the world that goes back much further'.
I'm still on the fence when it comes to channelled messages from spirit, but the idea that spirit may take the form of something we associate with wisdom so we won't feel threatened and are more likely to listen is an interesting take on it.
 
The "Indian [sic] burial grounds" trope has always bothered me as there were over 500 nations and they had different burial (or non burial) rites.

When I lived in the US I probably met several women who claimed to be descendants of "Indian [sic] princesses", as well. WTF? I just arched an eyebrow and changed the subject.

I see the Native American Spirit Guide trope as being a variant of this. The old "noble savage" rubbish. Doubt many native American souls are really kicking around Croydon, tbh.

Degsy's "Sam" comes to mind as I see it has upthread for others. I miss Sam. Incidentally, has anyone reported having Degsy as a spirit guide yet?

Not saying I'm sceptical about the concept of spirit guide but am definitely cynical re. the native American/African tribal leader ones.

ETA: Incidentally if Degsy couldn't wrap his tongue round Sam's actual name... how come he could convey that complex information Sam relayed to him?
 
Robsocks said:
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I'm still on the fence when it comes to channelled messages from spirit, but the idea that spirit may take the form of something we associate with wisdom so we won't feel threatened and are more likely to listen is an interesting take on it.
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If a "spirit" told me : "I am lying to you in order to make you more comfortable", I would feel threatened ! Even more so if he admitted that he did not want me to know his "real name", since in Western folklore, mastering a spirit's name is usually deemed essential to control it (see catholic exorcism, for instance).
 
Trevp666 said:
I'm not even sure if 'native american' is any longer an acceptable moniker.

Aren't the people of that descent now referred to as 'first worlders' or something?
One of our US friends will have to educate me here.
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It is "First Nations", and it is only the young ones and new agers that use that term as far as I can tell. People my age (in 60's) still call themselves "Ind'n". But maybe that is different in other parts of the country. Most of the state is either Native reservations or military reservations, which leaves about 1/3 of the state for the rest of us (and we have 1 million too many people here).
 
JahaRa said:
It is "First Nations", and it is only the young ones and new agers that use that term as far as I can tell. People my age (in 60's) still call themselves "Ind'n". But maybe that is different in other parts of the country. Most of the state is either Native reservations or military reservations, which leaves about 1/3 of the state for the rest of us (and we have 1 million too many people here).
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Given that north America is huge, and there were many different tribes, cultures, ways of life, and ethnic groups, it might be nicer if they were referred to by the names they gave themselves before the colonisation. At the risk of making an incorrect assumption based on a knowledge gained largely from western films, I mean names like Comanche, Sioux, Apache, Huron, Navajo etc.

It seems rather rude to invade their country, steal their land, slaughter their herd animals, commit genocide, and force the surviving indigenous people onto reservations, and then say, "We're going to lump you all together as the same sort of thing and decide what it's polite to call you, rather than cause offence."
 
Mikefule said:
Given that north America is huge, and there were many different tribes, cultures, ways of life, and ethnic groups, it might be nicer if they were referred to by the names they gave themselves before the colonisation. At the risk of making an incorrect assumption based on a knowledge gained largely from western films, I mean names like Comanche, Sioux, Apache, Huron, Navajo etc.

It seems rather rude to invade their country, steal their land, slaughter their herd animals, commit genocide, and force the surviving indigenous people onto reservations, and then say, "We're going to lump you all together as the same sort of thing and decide what it's polite to call you, rather than cause offence."
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The Navajo call themselves Dine', not Navajo. Comanche had a different name for themselve and Apache is a pueblo word for 'Enemy', which the european explorers never bothered to learn the languages so they continue to call them Apache, but they also have another name for themselves. Don't assume anything based on any films about cowboys and indians or novels. There are some good books written by natives that would give you better information.

Of course it is Damn Rude to invade someone's territory, (not country, as there wasn't a recognized country), steal everything important to them (they did not belive land was owned), destroy their main food source (the buffalo in the midwest), herd them from their homes to the desert and tell them they have to live there or die, etc. The thing about europeans is that they have colonized all over the world, using the same tactics. And they also perpetuated lies of superiourity to justify their actions.

I wish I could have seen Pope Greg 14th face when the preists brought back books and maps and star charts from south america, advanced beyond european understanding. It was probably quite a shock when his scientists told him what it all meant. So he sent more warrior priest by the droves to destroy all of it and the preists, teachers and leaders.
 
Mikefule said:
At the risk of making an incorrect assumption based on a knowledge gained largely from western films, I mean names like ...
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JahaRa said:
The Navajo call themselves Dine', not Navajo. Comanche had a different name for themselve and Apache is a pueblo word for 'Enemy', which the european explorers never bothered to learn the languages so they continue to call them Apache, but they also have another name for themselves. Don't assume anything based on any films about cowboys and indians or novels.
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This is exactly what I was hinting at with "At the risk...".

We have all picked up a lot of supposed names of tribes. However, most of us, me included, do not know which of those names are the ones they gave themselves and which are the ones that we learned from their enemies, or even misheard.

My serious point was it would be better to use their own names for themselves, although I personally do not know what those names would be.

Back to the topic, this same principle applies to other aspects of the "native American spirit guide". The various tribes had different cultures and lifestyles. I wonder how many supposed native American spirit guides were presented as having the combined features of wildly disparate tribes, with the traditional feather head dress of one tribe, the war paint of another, living in the tepee associated with another, using the wrong word for his or her own tribe, and so on.

To illustrate, it would be the equivalent of an American medium presenting a "European" guide who wore lederhosen, referred only to eating pizza and raw herring, said that he came from foggy London city, and described himself as a "Dago" or "Frog".
 
Not forgetting all the different languages used; 'North America is notable for its linguistic diversity, especially in California. This area has 18 language families comprising 74 languages'. 'There are approximately 296 spoken (or formerly spoken) Indigenous languages north of Mexico, 269 of which are grouped into 29 families'.
 
Native Americans - names, areas etc. I've used these in teaching and they are very nice things, if that makes sense? Created by and approved by (representatives of) the peoples involved. First class scholarship.

https://www.tribalnationsmaps.com/

1660304980256.png
 
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Dodgy Westerns.

Everyone knows what a Native American is and because of the "smoke um peacepipe" Hollywood take, they seem vaguely spiritual peoples to many.
 
Isn't "Native American" a controversial term though?
This has cropped up on Quora a few times, with indigenous people making the point that their preference is to be referred to by their specific tribal name. If that is not known, then "American Indian" is the favoured term.
That too isn't without a certain cultural baggage (Columbus originally referring the indigenous people as "Indios"), but "Native American" is disliked as "it’s a name assigned by white oppressors". Hence there is a certain momentum towards reclaiming “Indian” or “American Indian” to describe their ancestry.

https://www.nativeknot.com/news/Nat...can-Indian-How-to-Talk-About-Indigenous-.html
 
blessmycottonsocks said:
Isn't "Native American" a controversial term though?
This has cropped up on Quora a few times, with indigenous people making the point that their preference is to be referred to by their specific tribal name. If that is not known, then "American Indian" is the favoured term.
That too isn't without a certain cultural baggage (Columbus originally referring the indigenous people as "Indios"), but "Native American" is disliked as "it’s a name assigned by white oppressors". Hence there is a certain momentum towards reclaiming “Indian” or “American Indian” to describe their ancestry.

https://www.nativeknot.com/news/Nat...can-Indian-How-to-Talk-About-Indigenous-.html
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In Latin America, "indio" (Indian) is considered offensive, 'cause Colimbus thought he had found passage to Asia, and that the natives were Indians (from the Indies, i.e. southeast Asia). The people of native descent, when not referring to themselves by their linguistic/ethnic group, call themselves "indígenas" (indigenous).
 
SimonBurchell said:
In Latin America, "indio" (Indian) is considered offensive, 'cause Colimbus thought he had found passage to Asia, and that the natives were Indians (from the Indies, i.e. southeast Asia). The people of native descent, when not referring to themselves by their linguistic/ethnic group, call themselves "indígenas" (indigenous).
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As the article I linked to states:
".... the best term to use in a given situation usually comes down to preference — not your personal preference, but the preference of the person you’re speaking with.
They might dislike “Native American” and prefer “American Indian,” or vice versa, but you have no way of knowing unless you ask (or better yet, listen first).
People often get so caught up in dissecting the nuances of political correctness that they overlook what really matters: how someone chooses to describe themselves."
 
Floyd1 said:
Not forgetting all the different languages used; 'North America is notable for its linguistic diversity, especially in California. This area has 18 language families comprising 74 languages'. 'There are approximately 296 spoken (or formerly spoken) Indigenous languages north of Mexico, 269 of which are grouped into 29 families'.
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So, back to topic, if the medium is being 'spoken through' by .... a native of any particular country not local to that of the medium in question... how does it come out as English? If the medium is merely 'mentally translating' or 'receiving the communication in a language familiar to them' - then why the accent and the 'ug' and 'um's? Wouldn't it 'come through' in the medium's own voice and accent?
 
catseye said:
So, back to topic, if the medium is being 'spoken through' by .... a native of any particular country not local to that of the medium in question... how does it come out as English? If the medium is merely 'mentally translating' or 'receiving the communication in a language familiar to them' - then why the accent and the 'ug' and 'um's? Wouldn't it 'come through' in the medium's own voice and accent?
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My point being that with over 570 tribes it wouldn't do. It doesn't seem plausible, to me anyway.
 
WRT terminology, a friend of mine has been rediscovering her Cherokee heritage for some years now, and helps publish a newsletter for the Cherokee Nation.

She knows that I would not willingly cause offence, but she has seemed to roll her eyes at my polite use of the terms "Native Americans" and "First Nations." She herself typically uses the terms "American Indians" or just "Indians." To what extent that's representative of other Cherokee, much less the Cherokee leadership, I can't say.

I do wish there were a simple and polite way to refer collectively to the pre-Columbian inhabitants of the Americas, and their descendants.
 
catseye said:
So, back to topic, if the medium is being 'spoken through' by .... a native of any particular country not local to that of the medium in question... how does it come out as English? If the medium is merely 'mentally translating' or 'receiving the communication in a language familiar to them' - then why the accent and the 'ug' and 'um's? Wouldn't it 'come through' in the medium's own voice and accent?
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Because the medium isn't really a medium and doesn't know that the natives (at least in North America) do not talk like that.

When I see old westerns (even 50 years ago when I was a kid) I used to get mad that the actor supposedly a native was some jewish guy with a wig talking like an idiot. The worst was the Lone Ranger even though the actor was actually native, or part native. I always wondered why he did that, but I supposed he needed the job. And in Spanish Tonto means stupid. So hmmm, since it was made in California the writers of that show should have known that so I question whether they were ignorant or making fun.
 
Aether Blue said:
WRT terminology, a friend of mine has been rediscovering her Cherokee heritage for some years now, and helps publish a newsletter for the Cherokee Nation.

She knows that I would not willingly cause offence, but she has seemed to roll her eyes at my polite use of the terms "Native Americans" and "First Nations." She herself typically uses the terms "American Indians" or just "Indians." To what extent that's representative of other Cherokee, much less the Cherokee leadership, I can't say.

I do wish there were a simple and polite way to refer collectively to the pre-Columbian inhabitants of the Americas, and their descendants.
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The polite way would be to ask the individual. The people I grew up with referred to them selves as Idian or Navajo or by the name of their pueblo. None of them have the same ideas of what is proper any more than any other group of people. For example there are people who want to be called "Irish American" because some of their ancestors came from Ireland, maybe there are some who want to show pride in having Spanish or German ancestors, etc. Just ask.
 
JahaRa said:
... The worst was the Lone Ranger even though the actor was actually native, or part native. I always wondered why he did that, but I supposed he needed the job. And in Spanish Tonto means stupid. So hmmm, since it was made in California the writers of that show should have known that so I question whether they were ignorant or making fun.
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The TV series derived from a Michigan radio show and movie serials dating back to the early 1930s. The original radio show associated Tonto with the (local; Great Lakes area) Potawatomi tribe, who advised the original series creator the name meant "wild one" in their native language.

When I was a kid the "Tonto = Spanish for fool" meme was a common in-joke, but it was really just a coincidence that had nothing to do with the original series. The radio and movie serial versions were so successful that the Fifties-era TV show and all subsequent productions were stuck with the name Tonto. In contrast, the personal name attributed to the Lone Ranger himself (supposed to be a secret) varied quite a bit among the productions that ever mentioned it.
 
When it comes to the afterlife, mediumship etc. I think the trend was to use a foreign yet ancient culture, such as American native or Chinese, or even ancient Egyptian because the sitters would understand how old (therefore wise) that culture was and not be able to question the validity of the 'native guide' without extensive knowledge. The more exotic, the safer from criticsm.
It's like people being told they are a reincarnation of someone famous: no one wants to be told they're actually a reincarnation of a nameless slave who died aged 13 while digging irrigation ditches in Mesopotamia.
 
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