• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Why Is Christianity The Biggest Game On The Park?

Does anyone actually know the right term for Henry VIII's brand of Christianity? Here it's the Church of Wales - but I'd still call it CofE. You can't call it just Protestant because there must be a hundred or more other brands of Protestantity.

It's also a bit odd in Western Europe where Catholic is taken to mean Roman Catholic as if there wasn't other Catholic churches of equal eld - and without quite the same degree of corruption and violence in their past.

Please be careful with associating the Roman Catholic with exceptional "corruption and violence" as this point of view, which was especially prevalent in the 19th century and in the Anglo Saxon world (for obvious reasons), was largely the result of the mercyless propaganda wars between the Roman Catholics and Protestant Churches. It is simply not true. When one looks at historical facts, avoiding biases (as much as possible), he has to conclude that the situation was much more balanced.

A classical case is that of the Inquisition, usually associated with ruthless witch-hunts in the 16th and 17th century. Even touring around catholic countries like France, Spain or Italy, you'll encounter many so-called "Inquisition museums" displaying torture instruments, and images of poor ladies awaiting to be burned on the stake. But now, if you focus on statistics, or contemporary witnesses and so on, you'll notice that witch hunts were actually more prevalent in protestant lands like Germany, Scotland and America. The Salem trials, and its senseless slaugther, were not the result of a catholic persecution. King James 1st / VIth of he UK, was not a Catholic, but a devout protestant, and he so madly believed in witches, that he wrote a whole book about them. And was the so-called "Bowhead Saint", Major Thomas Weir, a ferocious covenanter and Presbyterian any less corrupt than, let's say Cesare Borgia ? Given his acts of cruelty and final demise, I doubt so.

Back to the witch-hunts, in many cases, it seems the catholic Inquisition had a milder approach to witch-hunting than its protestant local counter-parts. If you have a look at Carlo Ginzburg's works on the "benandanti" of Frioul, you'll see that most of these "sorcerers" were left to their own devices or considered as "simple men" by the Inquisitors. Why is it so ? Because Rome was more worried by rival churches & powers than by local deluded dreamers ... The Spanish inquisition was an exception ... but because it was actually almost under the direct control of the self styled "Catholic Kings" of Castille (earlier in history, you can find the same phenomenon with king Philippe le Bel's direct handling of heresy, as a political tool).

So let us not conclude hastily that any religion is more, or less corruption-prone than others ... Men are prone to "corruption". And they are very good at using religion to legitimize (or cover) their wrongdoings.

Religions link people together. It's actually one of the etymological explanation of the word religion (religio = "what links"). So where there is religion, there is politics. Where there is politics, there are power struggles and violence. The bigger, and less fragmented a religious movement is, the larger the stakes in political terms. So of course, you'll encounter corruption and violence in large religious groups. If these groups are monotheistic, with a claim to hold the only absolute truth (meaning all others are dangerous quacks and frauds), they'll store even more destructive potential. It then only takes an ambitious man to unleash almost unlimited destruction on his fellow humans, in the holy name of Truth and purification. And, to go back to the origin of this topic, back in 2012, it is certainly one of the causes of the success of Christianity and Islam (among countless other factors, such as the Roman empire's sponsorship).

Both religions took off with the backing of a strong political power (Rome for Christianity, and the Arab tribes for Islam). Both had an emphasis on detaining the ultimate truth, with any other religion being branded as either demonic (paganism) or out of date (Christianism invented the theory of a New Testament to distantiate itself from judaism, and Islam did the same to distantiate from Christianism). Both cultivated a kind of militant universalism that spurred them to spread, often through violent means. Try to convert to judaism, to check the difference !

There were rival beliefs, but quite often, the political powers supporting them were destroyed. Zoroastrism fell after the fall of the Sassanids. Indian Buddhism almost disappeared after the Muslims conquered northern India, destroying the Nalanda university on their way. India being divided into a mosaic of small states, none could really boost Hinduism to global preeminence (why would they want to ahieve such a goal, by the way ?). And China did not provide a good base for an expansionnist religion. As a matter of fact, Chinese officials, though they could have taoist or buddhist beliefs were above all Confucean. They were selected on their ability to discuss confucean topics. And apart from honouring one's ancestors, Confuceans were not driven by any hopes about the afterlife. As a matter of fact, Confucius once said : "We don't know much about life. What could we know about death ?". Hardly an asset to go spreading one's beliefs at the point of the sword.

Sorry, that was quite a long post. :-/
 
It's also not quite what I said. Granted I'm not familiar with much non-European / Anglosphere history I am familiar with certain periods when the RC Church was particularly corrupt. 14th century would be a notably bad period. After all it was partly the corruption that lead to the various schisms - multiple Popes and so on - and eventually the splitting off of the various kinds of Protestantism.

But I didn't say that other sects/religions weren't corrupt. It's hard to think of any human endeavour which is not to some degree affected by corruption, whether financial or of power.
 
Does anyone actually know the right term for Henry VIII's brand of Christianity? Here it's the Church of Wales - but I'd still call it CofE. You can't call it just Protestant because there must be a hundred or more other brands of Protestantity.

It's also a bit odd in Western Europe where Catholic is taken to mean Roman Catholic as if there wasn't other Catholic churches of equal eld - and without quite the same degree of corruption and violence in their past.
@Cochise – your post made me wonder about all the different Catholic Churches, how many believers, and their ethnic distribution. A “Church” is the collective body of believers, wherever they are located in the world. My last paragraph, below, addresses your comment on the “corruption and violence” of the Roman Catholic Church.

Size:
According to Wikipedia, the Roman (Latin) Catholic Church, has 1,300 millions of followers, and all the others combined, have 17.8 millions. The Roman Catholic Church has 73 times more members than all the others together. This is huge. As a side note, all the non-Roman Churches started in the middle east, eastern Europe, and northeast Africa. I could not find, for example, any Norwegian Catholic Church or French Catholic Church or Nigerian Catholic Church.

Types of members:
All the Catholic Churches, except for the Roman, have explicit ethnic designations as part of their formal name. For example: Greek Catholic Church of Croatia and Serbia, or Belarusian Greek Catholic Church. I do not know what the missions of these small Churches are, but in the US, their worship services were in the language of their followers; for example, Armenian for the Armenian Catholic Church. As a child and young adult, I occasionally was invited by friends and attended these church services, and was amazed that the services were in the “old country” vernacular language (that is, Armenian, Serbian, etc.), and not in English. Also, in these churches, all the clergy and members I could see were of that ethnic group. No Italians or French, let alone blacks, Asians, Hispanics, etc. These were not “universal” Churches serving all mankind.

The Roman Catholic Church, in the US, officially welcomes everyone, not just white people. I regularly worshipped in church with blacks, Asians, and Hispanics. I knew African and Japanese priests. As a very young child, the services I attended were in Latin, as this was the universal language for everyone in the world, similar to classic Arabic for Muslims. Later, in 1965 with Vatican II, the church leaders decided that the vernacular language of the locals was to be used; in the US, this was mostly English or Spanish (we have a very large Spanish-speaking population). If Martians landed on earth, I think some Roman Catholic priest would try to convert and baptize them.

Geographic distribution of the members:
The Roman Catholic Church has as its overarching goal to support the knowledge and love of God in all the peoples of the world. This of course is not enacted in good faith everywhere by everyone. The Roman Catholic Church is found on all continents. It established missions to convert any and all peoples everywhere. I am unaware of any of the other Catholic Churches having a goal of converting or supporting anyone other than the ethnic community of the founders. If anyone has information about this, I would be appreciative if you posted.

Goal vs. enactment:
To forestall any comments about the evils of the Roman Catholic Church (persecution, slavery, warfare, greed, child abuse, etc.), I will state that all these evils happened and some probably still do happen. However, none of these evils are part of the organization’s goals. The weaknesses and evil of some of the clergy and members do not detract from nor change the organization’s goals. Every organization has bad members, and the extent of evil enacted is based on the organization’s financial, political, and cultural power which the bad members could use. For most of its history, the Roman Catholic Church had a lot of power.

Edit: well as usual, somebody else posted before me, and - again as usual - made very good points different than mine. Thanks, @AmStramGram
 
Last edited:
Again, your last paragraph. Of course violence cruelty and corruption is not part of an organisation's goals. But how diligent it is about weeding out those sins is relevant also. My first wife was a victim of the Catholic way of dealing with unmarried mothers in Ireland. I don't as a result hate the Roman Catholic church - indeed at times I've considered consulting a priest about my own mental situation.

But I do quite strongly hold the opinion that - at least through the latter half of its history - the RC Church has been remarkably poor in dealing with miscreants within its own organisation.
 
Again, your last paragraph. Of course violence cruelty and corruption is not part of an organisation's goals. But how diligent it is about weeding out those sins is relevant also. My first wife was a victim of the Catholic way of dealing with unmarried mothers in Ireland. I don't as a result hate the Roman Catholic church - indeed at times I've considered consulting a priest about my own mental situation.

But I do quite strongly hold the opinion that - at least through the latter half of its history - the RC Church has been remarkably poor in dealing with miscreants within its own organisation.
Earlier, you posted: "It's also a bit odd in Western Europe where Catholic is taken to mean Roman Catholic as if there wasn't other Catholic churches of equal eld - and without quite the same degree of corruption and violence in their past."

What evidence do you have that these other Catholic Churches were less corrupt and less violent than the Roman Catholic Church? Is it a matter of scale or degree? My personal, limited experiences with non-Roman Catholic Churches is that they are much more insular, prejudiced, and intolerant than the Roman Catholics.

I empathize with your passion about the ill-treatment of your wife by the Irish Catholics. How did you determine that this was based in the Roman Catholic Church, and not the Irish culture or something else? Until very recently, unwed mothers were treated very badly in most cultures around the world. I view this not as based in religion, but based in cultures in which patrimony, family reputation, honor, social status, men controlling women economically, and the like are the drivers. In other words, in Europe, Africa, Asia, North and South America. Whores, bastards, shameful, etc.: these terms are widespread in different languages and across continents with different religious traditions.

BTW, my questions are not rhetorical. I would actually like to know.
 
Earlier, you posted: "It's also a bit odd in Western Europe where Catholic is taken to mean Roman Catholic as if there wasn't other Catholic churches of equal eld - and without quite the same degree of corruption and violence in their past."

What evidence do you have that these other Catholic Churches were less corrupt and less violent than the Roman Catholic Church? Is it a matter of scale or degree? My personal, limited experiences with non-Roman Catholic Churches is that they are much more insular, prejudiced, and intolerant than the Roman Catholics.

I empathize with your passion about the ill-treatment of your wife by the Irish Catholics. How did you determine that this was based in the Roman Catholic Church, and not the Irish culture or something else? Until very recently, unwed mothers were treated very badly in most cultures around the world. I view this not as based in religion, but based in cultures in which patrimony, family reputation, honor, social status, men controlling women economically, and the like are the drivers. In other words, in Europe, Africa, Asia, North and South America. Whores, bastards, shameful, etc.: these terms are widespread in different languages and across continents with different religious traditions.

BTW, my questions are not rhetorical. I would actually like to know.
The fact it was run by nuns might be a clue.
 
It's Episcopalian - shorted up here to Pisky - and or Anglican.

It's what I used to be before I emerged from my chrysalis as an Old Catholic!
Episcopalian, that’s it! I kept getting stuck on Presbyterian but i knew that wasn’t right as it’s a different flavour of godsquad. The perils of old age
 
I've always described C of E 'High Church' as Anglo-Catholic, as opposed to Roman Catholic. I believe Henry reverted back to proper Catholicism (as so many do) on his death bed.
I don’t think he reverted, he just thought he was a proper Catholic throughout his life albeit one who had dispensed with the pope and some other ’modern’ accretions that had got in the way of the true religion.
 
All the Catholic Churches, except for the Roman, have explicit ethnic designations as part of their formal name.

I'm sorry, but this isn't true. The Old Catholics don't.

Edit to add the Wikipedia link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Catholic_Church

This is my lot :)

... Old Catholics hold an open view to most issues, including the role of women in the Church, the role of married people within ordained ministry, the morality of same sex relationships, the use of conscience when deciding whether to use artificial contraception, and liturgical reforms such as open communion. Its liturgy has not significantly departed from the Tridentine Mass, as is shown in the translation of the German altar book (missal).

In 1994 the German bishops decided to ordain women as priests, and put this into practice on 27 May 1996. Similar decisions and practices followed in Austria, Switzerland and the Netherlands.[57] In 2020, the Swiss church also voted in favour of same-sex marriage. Marriages between two men and two women will be conducted in the same manner as heterosexual marriages.[58] The UU allows those who are divorced to have a new marriage in the church, and has no particular teaching on abortion, leaving such decisions to the married couple.[59]

An active contributor to the Declaration of the Catholic Congress, Munich, 1871, and all later assemblies for organization was Johann Friedrich von Schulte, the professor of dogma at Prague. Von Schulte summed up the results of the congress as follows:[60]

  • adherence to the ancient Catholic faith
  • maintenance of the rights of Catholics
  • rejection of new Catholic dogmas
  • adherence to the constitutions of the ancient Church with repudiation of every dogma of faith not in harmony with the actual consciousness of the Church
  • reform of the Church with constitutional participation of the laity
  • preparation of the way for reunion of the Christian confessions
  • reform of the training and position of the clergy
  • adherence to the State against the attacks of Ultramontanism
  • rejection of the Society of Jesus
  • claim to the real property of the Church
 
This is wonderful. I was vaguely hoping others with more knowledge would chime in, and you did! Any idea about the worldwide membership?

not many in the grand scheme of things - but growing fast! :group:
 
I've always described C of E 'High Church' as Anglo-Catholic, as opposed to Roman Catholic. I believe Henry reverted back to proper Catholicism (as so many do) on his death bed.

Voltaire didn't.
When asked by a priest, on his death bed, to renounce the devil, ever witty to the end, he quipped "Mon brave homme, ce n'est pas le moment de se fair des ennemis!" (My dear fellow, this is no time to be making new enemies!).
What a parting shot!
 
Back
Top