Will Putin Offer Siberia To China To Guarantee Their Continued Support?

[kesavaross]

Quite often they where offered places in summer camps and then never returned. The Telegraph has extensive coverage off it.

I've now watched 5 shortish videos about the 12000 'stolen' kids and none of it makes any real sense. The 'how' doesn't get a mention. I also couldn't find the article in the Guardian.

edit: I found the article in the Guardian and it still doesn't make any real sense.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ar-crimes-icc-arrest-warrant-ukraine-children

 

[hunck]

I've now watched 5 shortish videos about the 12000 'stolen' kids and none of it makes any real sense. The 'how' doesn't get a mention. I also couldn't find the article in the Guardian.

edit: I found the article in the Guardian and it still doesn't make any real sense.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ar-crimes-icc-arrest-warrant-ukraine-children

What is it that doesn’t make any real sense to you? Please elucidate.

Does the Russian invasion of Ukraine make any real sense to you?

 

[kesavaross]

What is it that doesn’t make any real sense to you? Please elucidate.

Does the Russian invasion of Ukraine make any real sense to you?

It's the sheers numbers of children involved and for what purpose. It just seems very strange in the middle of a war. No real details were given in the Guardian article. Exactly how were these children 'stolen'? And by who exactly? Russian troops? Were they ordered to 'steal' any chid or just specific children? How did they decide who to 'steal'?Detail is very important.

And yes, of course I understand what we have been told is the reason for the invasion by Russia into Ukraine. Sorry to sound rude, I am not an idiot. I like to question things when they don't seem or feel quite right to me. I am not pro Putin or pro Ukraine as it's pretty obvious neither side is telling the whole truth and western media, as well as eastern media, cannot be relied on to tell the truth. Each side is pushing their own narrative for their own purposes. In short, what we get told is usually not the truth regardless of the source.

 

[Beresford]

It's the sheers numbers of children involved and for what purpose. It just seems very strange in the middle of a war. No real details were given in the Guardian article. Exactly how were these children 'stolen'? And by who exactly? Russian troops? Were they ordered to 'steal' any chid or just specific children? How did they decide who to 'steal'?Detail is very important.

And yes, of course I understand what we have been told is the reason for the invasion by Russia into Ukraine. Sorry to sound rude, I am not an idiot. I like to question things when they don't seem or feel quite right to me. I am not pro Putin or pro Ukraine as it's pretty obvious neither side is telling the whole truth and western media, as well as eastern media, cannot be relied on to tell the truth. Each side is pushing their own narrative for their own purposes. In short, what we get told is usually not the truth regardless of the source.

The first casualty of war is the truth, as they say. Nothing wrong with questioning what you are told, but be careful scepticism doesn't become cynicism.

With regard to 'stolen' children, it is easily believable that Russia has Ukrainian children in their custody. They will have adults too. In a war zone many people can become displaced. It's probably worth noting that children were abducted from Ukraine by a previous invading force - see lebensborn.

Anyway back to the topic. No, Russia will not offer Siberia to China for some of the reasons mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

[Ascalon]

Do you mean summer camps in Ukraine? Thanks.

They were offered places in summer camps in occupied territories and then not returned. Several NGOs where involved in trying to secure the safe return of children.

 

[Floyd]

The first casualty of war is the truth, as they say. Nothing wrong with questioning what you are told, but be careful scepticism doesn't become cynicism.

With regard to 'stolen' children, it is easily believable that Russia has Ukrainian children in their custody. They will have adults too. In a war zone many people can become displaced. It's probably worth noting that children were abducted from Ukraine by a previous invading force - see lebensborn.

Anyway back to the topic. No, Russia will not offer Siberia to China for some of the reasons mentioned earlier in the thread.

Kesava says that ''No real details were given in the Guardian article''.
That means that it is therefore perfectly acceptable to question the validity of that article. He's not saying that it is, or isn't true, merely that he wants some (better) evidence - just like any Fortean would (or should) regarding any topic discussed on here.

 

[Beresford]

Kesava says that ''No real details were given in the Guardian article''.
That means that it is therefore perfectly acceptable to question the validity of that article. He's not saying that it is, or isn't true, merely that he wants some (better) evidence - just like any Fortean would (or should) regarding any topic discussed on here.

With reference to an investigation by the International Criminal Court, the article states:

"The court’s pre-trial judges said there were “reasonable grounds to believe that each suspect bears responsibility for the war crime of unlawful deportation of population, and that of unlawful transfer of population from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation, in prejudice of Ukrainian children”

This isn't a district court in some backwater. It's good enough for me.

 

[Floyd]

With reference to an investigation by the International Criminal Court, the article states:

"The court’s pre-trial judges said there were “reasonable grounds to believe that each suspect bears responsibility for the war crime of unlawful deportation of population, and that of unlawful transfer of population from occupied areas of Ukraine to the Russian Federation, in prejudice of Ukrainian children”

This isn't a district court in some backwater. It's good enough for me.

Not that long ago, the very same Guardian was asking 'Is the worlds highest court fit for purpose?'
https://www.theguardian.com/global-...r/05/international-criminal-court-fit-purpose

 

[Stormkhan]

Organisations such as the I.C.C. and the U.N. were founded on noble principals.
However, what enforcement is possible? Putin can't officially travel to any nation that's signed up to international law without risk of arrest. But if he were to decide to go on a foreign trip, can you imagine the utter diplomatic chaos should a country enforce the arrest warrant? Or even let some 'bountyhunter' do so?
Like the Eurovision Song Contest, the voting 'friendships' in the U.N. are predictable. So any proposal for anything stronger than economic sanctions (which are often side-stepped) will never be passed. For example, China is obeying (so far) an embargo on arms sales to Russia ... but they're sending aid in the form of 'dual-purpose' tech i.e. semi-conductors which have both civilian and military usage.

 

[Kondoru]

Im suspicious of most things and particularly anyone partisan, such as a certain newspaper.

Anyhow, isnt bounty hunting illegal in most countries?

 

[Endlessly Amazed]

Im suspicious of most things and particularly anyone partisan, such as a certain newspaper.

Anyhow, isnt bounty hunting illegal in most countries?

No. International bounty hunting is different.

 

[Spookdaddy]

Not that long ago, the very same Guardian was asking 'Is the worlds highest court fit for purpose?'...

Any legal process founded on the assumption of universal authority - whether based on the delegated or inherent universal jurisdiction model - will ultimately be so complex that it can never not be flawed in some way. This doesn't mean that the underlying purpose is not laudable, or individual accusations are unfounded – but that the processes of investigation and prosecution are almost dumbfoundingly complex.

In regard to the specific subject of child kidnapping and its potential use as propaganda: I don't think there's any argument that any side in any conflict will squeeze all the juice it can - and maybe add some more - from of any element that might be used for propaganda purposes. I don't doubt that Ukraine is very good at this - it would, in truth, be lax of them not to be. But the most effective propaganda is a convenient truth. If someone hands them that convenient truth then an effective propagandist broadcasts it for all it's worth - that doesn't make it a lie.

So, might these figures be exaggerated? Well, totally possible.

But, do these figures look outlandish? I don’t think so.

I wouldn’t make any claim as to the precise accuracy of the figures involved, but I can't agree with the implication that they are necessarily 'strange' - presumably because they are perceived to be somehow excessive - or that such events could not take place in the 'middle of a war'. The 'middle of a war' creates precisely the right sort of environment and circumstances for such events to take place - and 12 000 individuals is utter peanuts compared to the overall numbers that have been displaced by this conflict. The logistics involved may seem like an unnecessary diversion of resources when fighting a war, but to some mindsets - certainly once you add racial and ideological factors to a conflict - such acts are part of fighting the war. (It's also worth noting that Russia's demographics are currently problematic, and have been since the 1990s - and when a country's death rate exceeds its birth rate, the concept of children becoming a plunderable asset is, unfortunately, not unfathomable.)

But, back to the origins of the thread:

Seems then, that Xi left Moscow without any extra geography. He will, at least, have avoided any excess baggage fee.

 

[Floyd]

Any legal process founded on the assumption of universal authority - whether based on the delegated or inherent universal jurisdiction model - will ultimately be so complex that it can never not be flawed in some way. This doesn't mean that the underlying purpose is not laudable, or individual accusations are unfounded – but that the processes of investigation and prosecution are almost dumbfoundingly complex.

Yes. Agreed. I didn't say anything to the contrary.

If someone hands them that convenient truth then an effective propagandist broadcasts it for all it's worth - that doesn't make it a lie.

Well, it could just as easily be one though.

So, might these figures be exaggerated? Well, totally possible.

Yes, totally possible.

But, do these figures look outlandish? I don’t think so.

None of us knows for certain though.

I wouldn’t make any claim as to the precise accuracy of the figures involved,

Agreed.

but I can't agree with the implication that they are necessarily 'strange' - presumably because they are perceived to be somehow excessive - or that such events could not take place in the 'middle of a war'.

Agreed.

The 'middle of a war' creates precisely the right sort of environment and circumstances for such events to take place - and 12 000 individuals is utter peanuts compared to the overall numbers that have been displaced by this conflict.

Agreed.

The logistics involved may seem like an unnecessary diversion of resources when fighting a war, but to some mindsets - certainly once you add racial and ideological factors to a conflict - such acts are part of fighting the war.

Yes. As are rapes and murders of civillians.

when a country's death rate exceeds its birth rate, the concept of children becoming a plunderable asset is, unfortunately, not unfathomable.)

It isn't. I didn't suggest it was.

 

[Spookdaddy]

Yes. Agreed. I didn't say anything to the contrary...

...It isn't. I didn't suggest it was.

I think you may have been mistaking my reply for criticism of your views - whereas, in fact , you hadn't really expressed any personal views in the post I quoted. I was just using the Guardian's fairly justified reservations as a starting point for my own take on the subject.

 

[Floyd]

I think you may have been mistaking my reply for criticism of your views - whereas, in fact , you hadn't really expressed any personal views in the post I quoted. I was just using the Guardian's fairly justified reservations as a starting point for my own take on the subject.

Understood Spook.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

To be brainwashed into "good Russians"

Thankfully, there are still free-thinking, courageous Russians in the country - like these guys recently in Moscow protesting the state of the collapsing economy:

The banner reads "There is Putin - no need for food".

 

[Stormkhan]

Offer hard-pressed ordinary folk with an easy solution (such as a 'foreign' enemy) combined with the threat of punishment for not complying, no one should be surprised that people will swallow any amount of nonsense.
And, of course, the more that comply influences those who have doubts.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

Offer hard-pressed ordinary folk with an easy solution (such as a 'foreign' enemy) combined with the threat of punishment for not complying, no one should be surprised that people will swallow any amount of nonsense.
And, of course, the more that comply influences those who have doubts.

Exactly as a previous fascist - Galtieri tried with his invasion of the Falkland islands.

 

[ramonmercado]

Thankfully, there are still free-thinking, courageous Russians in the country - like these guys recently in Moscow protesting the state of the collapsing economy:

The banner reads "There is Putin - no need for food".

View attachment 64947

Be like the Dutch.

 

[kesavaross]

Thankfully, there are still free-thinking, courageous Russians in the country - like these guys recently in Moscow protesting the state of the collapsing economy:

The banner reads "There is Putin - no need for food".

It's hard to know who is telling the truth. I read an article recently stating the opposite. That the Russian economy is doing really well.

 

[blessmycottonsocks]

It's hard to know who is telling the truth. I read an article recently stating the opposite. That the Russian economy is doing really well.

I'm not aware of any reports claiming that, although some admit that the Russian economy, which contracted by between 2.2 and 3.9% in 2022 is not collapsing as rapidly as was expected. Putin has implemented emergency wartime economic measures in an attempt to delay the inevitable and has also likely asked for help from China during Xi's recent visit. The speculation over Siberia seems to have gone quiet, but what else was up for discussion is anyone's guess. Putin will have to play it carefully though. Russians may tolerate an ongoing war, but becoming a vassal state of China may be a step too far.
This recent analysis by the European Council is pretty detailed and seems highly plausible, with things forecast to get significantly worse in 2023.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?sxs...HRX8B0wQ1QJ6BAhPEAE&biw=1536&bih=760&dpr=1.25