Zana The Wild Woman

EnolaGaia

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So what would you consider strong evidence that these events were related?
I would say your question breaks down into two interrelated sub-questions, and that the more immediate one should be addressed before investing time and effort into researching the second one.

These two sub-questions - in what I consider the order of priority - are:

(1) Is there any evidence of connections, mutual familiarity, cross-reference, and / or cross-pollination between (a) Ivanov's hybrid project and / or the ongoing Primate Research Canter and (b) Porshnev's (or anyone else's) research into relict hominids / hominoids in that region?

(2) Does any evidence obtained in relation to question (1) suggest or indicate mutual objectives, activities, or collaboration between the two sets of parties cited above?

There would be no reason for Ivanov to have known of Porshnev at all. However, it's conceivable that someone working at the Primate Research Center he (Ivanov) founded may have had reason to draw connections to Porshnev's work later (e.g., in the 1960's) or the activities of the people who continued Porshnev's work in this area. It's even conceivable that Ivanov and / or his colleagues had considered options involving relict hominoids rather than human / ape hybrids, long before Porshnev got involved.

Going in the opposite direction ... My instincts suggest any cross-reference from the Porshnev side would most likely have involved Bayanov, Machkovtsev, or Marie-Jeanne Koffmann rather than Porshnev himself.

One reason I think the immediate issue is to to first determine if there's even a hint of cross-connections is that I'd suspect any deep research effort would necessarily lead back to Moscow and the archives of the various agencies or centers that sponsored or otherwise supported these two lines of work. It could well prove difficult to determine which ones to contact and to convince any of them to cooperate without being able to make a case for why you're inquiring.
 

Razumov

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Two articles from Sasquatch Canada on the current state of DNA testing:

https://www.sasquatchcanada.com/uploads/9/4/5/1/945132/issue_no_36_pdf_-_final.pdf

https://www.sasquatchcanada.com/uploads/9/4/5/1/945132/issue_no_40_pdf.pdf

It turns out that Vladimir Yamshchikov has also sequenced mtDNA from both the skulls very same result for each: L2c, confirming Bryan Sykes tests and that the skulls are related.

Compare the text from two of Bryan Sykes own books commenting on the age of the L2c haplo group:

https://books.google.com/books?id=u...Bryan Sykes" l2c&pg=PA305#v=onepage&q&f=false

content (2).png


https://books.google.com/books?id=5...Bryan Sykes" l2c&pg=PA143#v=onepage&q&f=false

content - 1.png


L2c.jpg

L2c is found in mainly the area of Africa that Ilya Ivanovich Ivanov was conducting his interbreeding experiments in.


pixlr.jpg
 

EnolaGaia

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Two articles from Sasquatch Canada on the current state of DNA testing ...
It turns out that Vladimir Yamshchikov has also sequenced mtDNA from both the skulls very same result for each: L2c, confirming Bryan Sykes tests and that the skulls are related. ...
Thanks for tracking down that additional note from Murphy (Issue #40).

I wish we knew who the female skull represents. If it's one of Khvit's own daughters, it's not very informative. If it were Khvit's (half?)sister or a possible descendant of a sister it would be more informative by demonstrating Khvit and at least one other alleged child shared the same mother.
 

eburacum

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Wait a minute. If there was a slave trade to the Black Sea as seen in this map, then a perfectly ordinary and human African slave could have found her way to Abkhazia- which is on the Black Sea. All the stuff about being subhuman could just be down to unfamiliarity and xenophobia.
 

EnolaGaia

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Wait a minute. If there was a slave trade to the Black Sea as seen in this map, then a perfectly ordinary and human African slave could have found her way to Abkhazia- which is on the Black Sea. All the stuff about being subhuman could just be down to unfamiliarity and xenophobia. ...
There was a substantial slave trade to the Black Sea region - primarily via Constantinople. I've also seen allusions to slave trading from a southeastern direction (i.e., toward Persia).

The mtDNA findings ascribing Zana's lineage to haplogroup L2C doesn't refute the notion she was a first-generation slave.

The L2C haplogroup is most highly concentrated in western Africa and is strongly associated with the Bantu peoples. The Bantu expansion carried the L2C haplogroup south and east, where it appears less frequently (in terms of a percentage of overall population) throughout south central Africa.

As the dissemination map indicates, there were trans-Saharan slave trade routes in addition to sea routes. As a result, there's no reason to assume slaves exhibiting the L2C haplogroup were all taken west to the Americas.

Attempts to characterize Zana as a relict hominid left over from a prehistoric out-of-Africa expansion ignore the more plausible explanation that she was a contemporary slave.

This strikes me as a ploy to maintain some semblance of paranormality about her story - the same sort of dogmatic force-fitting of scanty evidence to fit one's preferred narrative that Porshnev exhibited.

NOTE: I'm not saying the relict hominid theory is completely out of play. I'm only saying the mtDNA evidence supports a far more likely, if less provocative, explanation for who Zana may have been.
 

Xanatic*

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It's one of the last chances of something paranormal being true, we're getting desperate here.
 

eburacum

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As I understand it, there is credible genetic evidence for recent African heritage in people who are said to be descended from her. This is also consistent with the series of photos of her descendants, who appear to have features consistent with recent African heritage. The stories of her atavism are the doubtful part of this tale, which are more reasonably explained by unfamiliarity and xenophobia than by a relict human population.
 
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As I understand it, there is credible genetic evidence for recent African heritage in people who are said to be descended from her. This is also consistent with the series of photos of her descendants, who appear to have features consistent with recent African heritage. The stories of her atavism are the doubtful part of this tale, which are more reasonably explained by unfamiliarity and xenophobia than by a relict human population.
^this^
 

oldrover

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And what evidence do we actually have for any of it? Fairy stories about a wild woman and Brian Sykes? Not looking good is it. If there is any substance to this tale it'll be a very unsavoury business.
 

EnolaGaia

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What are we looking at here?
A woman reportedly* named Maria de Jesus, born in 1964, and a resident of Belo Horizonte, Brazil. The only photos I've seen of her are undated and in black and white - making it difficult to get a sense of how old they are or how old she was when the photos were taken.

* I say 'reportedly' because the only source for these factoids I've ever found is the caption on a photo which has circulated online for a long time ...

Maria-de-Jesus.jpg
And no - I've never located any clues as to the original source for this captioned photo.
 

EnolaGaia

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And there's no reason to assume that she is not just suffering from birth defects?
No - there's no reason to suspect anything unknown. There's nothing in her features - at least her facial features - that's outside the range of known congenital or developmental defects / deformities. The most strikingly anomalous of her features are the radically upswept epicanthic folds around her eyes, which yield an appearance that's similar to certain depictions of extraterrestrials. However, there are a variety of conditions and syndromes which can yield such characteristics.
 

Razumov

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What are we looking at here?
Reported as: "Maria Lima of Peru, who was born covered with fur and never learned human speech. Either both parents were of Manape heritage, or the mother was raped by an Andean Sasquatch." by Szukalski

yetisyn_rysunek67x.gif


Further reported by Peter Kolosimo in Spaceships in prehistory as Maria De Jesus of Minas Gerais (Brazil)

https://archive.org/details/spaceshipsinpreh00kolo

11003-688af3798595ca66d65b268be485f348.jpg.png

Screenshot-2018-7-16 Spaceships in prehistory(7).png

Screenshot-2018-7-16 Spaceships in prehistory(9).png

Of course she just has five bizarre diseases at the same time, nothing to see here.
 

Xanatic*

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I find it odd that in the drawing you posted, she has the exact same hair as in one of the photos. Look at the little curls on her left side. It looks as if someone didn't draw her, but drew from that photo and embellished it with fur that doesn't seem evident in the photo.
 

Razumov

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I find it odd that in the drawing you posted, she has the exact same hair as in one of the photos. Look at the little curls on her left side. It looks as if someone didn't draw her, but drew from that photo and embellished it with fur that doesn't seem evident in the photo.
Szukalski was an artist who often drew off of photographs, he never presented it as evidence of course, and I only include it to be complete (and because of the clue referencing Peru, but pearls to swine...).

There is no hard evidence as such for Maria, rather an open investigation.


The main reason I was interested in Maria Lima is because she looks like well known local folklore creatures in the area that resemble the Hobbits found in Indonesia:

4702225664_43b192d2cf_o(1).jpg

4702226254_d200c8a735_o(1).jpg

Wikipedia

pixlr_20181005230301040.jpg

I didn't think she Maria Lima had any connection to the Zana case until I compared her to the second skull (see above). I have no idea what that relationship is, which is why I am investigating, of course.
 

Xanatic*

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I assume the pixelated parts are long, flappy breasts? A feature which also seems ascribed to trolls in Scandinavia.

The idea that her simian features only arose later in life seems odd. I haven't heard that happen with other hybrids or throwbacks.
 

Razumov

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I assume the pixelated parts are long, flappy breasts?
Nope just the genitals, but the Kurupi has something long and floppy...

A feature which also seems ascribed to trolls in Scandinavia.
The abominable booby monsters are reported from Africa to Indonesia:

pixlr_20180601212617028(1)(1).jpg

Top left: Alma/Yeti/Zana
Bottom left: Wewe Gombel from Java
Top and bottom right: The fearsome Leyaks of Bali (yes it is about to eat the baby)
 

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Szukalski was an artist who often drew off of photographs, he never presented it as evidence of course, and I only include it to be complete (and because of the clue referencing Peru, but pearls to swine...).

There is no hard evidence as such for Maria, rather an open investigation.

The main reason I was interested in Maria Lima is because she looks like well known local folklore creatures in the area that resemble the Hobbits found in Indonesia:
Interesting that "Maria Lima of Peru" is actually a place rather than a person.

Maria de Jesus was quite possibly suffering from Cri du chat syndrome
.


Impossible to tell due to the poor quality of the pics. Much more likely than some sort of human/yeti hybrid though.
 
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Naughty_Felid

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Cri du Chat gets it's name from the "cat cry" babies make who have it. It's there on youtube but heartbreaking to hear. I'd heard of Klinefelter and other developmental/genetic disorders, ( microcephaly too), but not this one. Very, very sad.

These threads suck balls.
 
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