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Jo Cox Attack: False Flag?

The false flag delusion is now a universal thing on line whenever a member - or self proclaimed representative - of your own particular tribe does something wicked.

I remember when the Boston marathon bombing happened, or was still fresh in the news, I was in my local barber's. Bloke comes in, clearly a friend/acquaintance of the staff, chatting and gabbing away like mates and he - Asian, but fully western/local with no hint of accent or overt religious leanings - stated with reference to the news on the TV screen that of course the Americans had done this themselves to make Muslims look bad and justify their war on terror.

He wasn't ranting, speculating, guessing or reporting what he'd heard from some secret source..simply calmly stating it as an everybody knows obvious fact, his default interpretation of such news. The fact that the suspects were identified, one arrested, confessed, tried etc simply didn't come into the equation. A Muslim terrorist attack was, could only be, a set up by the CIA.

More bizarrely when Lee Rigby was murdered it was effectively broadcast on live TV, and certainly the perpetrator calmly announcing his justification, blade in hand and walking towards the camera with blood-covered hands. Arrested - on camera - tried, unashamed and unapologetic, convicted. And yet the next day there were links on my facebook to people dissecting the still photos of the videotape arguing the blood on his hands had been photoshopped on and this was an obvious "false flag"/set up and he had been framed...and other people were enthusiastically going along with it!

The assumption the murder of this MP may somehow reflect on the Leave half of the EU referendum is clearly as much in the minds of right-leaning leavers as left-leaning remainers when their first instinct is to cry "set up!"

The internet age churns out more nuts than Brazil.
 
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The Fabian Society ‏@thefabians 35m35 minutes agoLondon, England
We re-publish this essay by Jo Cox today to share the values & ideas she stood for http://bit.ly/1V0xUxF #JoCoxMP

FabianWomen'sNetwork and Young Fabians
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Various debates/events cancelled and no news on when campaigning will resume.

Parliament is being recalled on Monday.

What are the odds of the referendum being cancelled/postponed?
 
I'll note that the Tory party conference went on the morning after the Brighton hotel bombing.

There is no precedent whatsoever for suspending our democratic processes in such cases.

Edit: While checking the dates on Wikipedia I spotted this gem:

"When hospital staff asked Tebbit whether he was allergic to anything, he is said to have answered "bombs"".
 
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Quake42 said:
Various debates/events cancelled and no news on when campaigning will resume.

Parliament is being recalled on Monday.

What are the odds of the referendum being cancelled/postponed?
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It can't and shouldn't be at this stage.

Campaigning should have been suspended today as a mark of respect and during the funeral service.

But to show that democracy triumphs over terrorism the campaigning and referendum should continue.
 
Yithian said:
I'll note that the Tory party conference went on the morning after the Brighton hotel bombing.
There is no precedent whatsoever for suspending our diplomatic processes in such cases.
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No. But there's no precedent for the British people choosing national democracy over corporatism and globalisation either.

MPs have been attacked and even murdered before and things didn't stop the way they have this time.
 
I'm glad I'm not completely alone in finding the way the political class is presenting this poor woman's being robbed of her existence somewhat distasteful.

Unless it emerges that the killer did in fact target Mrs Cox for holding the office of MP and/or for her pro-EU campaigning then what we have is an attack on a human being, not 'an attack on the democracy we all cherish'. Her murder may yet turn out to have absolutely nothing to do with some vague notion of undermining Tolerance, Free Speech and 'Values'. Assuming Mair's actions were politically motivated, perhaps the politicians would like to explain how encouraging these 'British values' (surely human values?) will transform our society into one in which murders carried out by disturbed individuals cease to occur. It's nonsense.

George Osborne did state in his speech that 'we don't yet know [...] what motivated this attack', but then goes on to quote Mr Cox's plea to "fight against the hatred that killed her". I'm afraid I have no idea what that means, and I wonder if Mr Osborne does.

Apart from the fact that my hackles tend to rise whenever I hear Cameron (and most other politicians) using the words 'We, Us, Our'. I realise it's difficult to strike the right tone and of course the PM, for example, has to say something . But it troubles me that the best he can manage under such extraordinary and tragic circumstances is to say...well, basically exactly what he says when anything happens.

I realise this is an extremely cynical suggestion, but...our politicians are well aware of growing hostility towards themselves and their institutions. A chance of gaining public sympathy by portraying themselves as a frightened minority would seem a golden opportunity. Not that MPs aren't subject to violence, both random and premeditated. So are police officers, teachers, paramedics, doctors and nurses, social workers and TV licence inspectors.

[edited for typos]
 
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Mythopoeika said:
Gas fitter insists Jo Cox 'killer' DID shout 'Britain first' as he shot the MP:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...murder-provides-compelling-account-death.html

Conflicting reports. Hmmm.
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Indeed. It might be some time before the true facts are established. As per usual in these cases, the assailant is described as 'a loner' (as people who value their privacy are known to tabloid journalists) and yet at least one person has claimed to know Mair well enough to be sure that he has no interest in politics, European or otherwise.

But should his motives turn out to be political how on Earth does a court decide whether he killed because of his beliefs or because of his illness? In any event politicians bigging themselves up by trotting out platitudes about their 'values' seems inappropriate and opportunistic.

In my opinion.
 
ramonmercado said:
Eyewitness/earwitness accounts often differ.
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They do. I've posted before on this board on this - see the de Menezes stuff in 2005.

People see a shocking event and their brains fill in gaps with what they think they might have seen/heard.

I do find this media reaction to this murder quite odd. We have had MPs murdered before (Ian Gow) and seriously injured by constituents at surgeries. None of these have led to this Diana-like reaction. People were appalled but didn't allow isolated events to disrupt the usual democratic process.

Two close friends - one Bremain, one on the fence but leaning towards Brexit - have separately expressed to me tonight that something odd is going on here.
 
Quake42 said:
They do. I've posted before on this board on this - see the de Menezes stuff in 2005.

People see a shocking event and their brains fill in gaps with what they think they might have seen/heard.

I do find this media reaction to this murder quite odd. We have had MPs murdered before (Ian Gow) and seriously injured by constituents at surgeries. None of these have led to this Diana-like reaction. People were appalled but didn't allow isolated events to disrupt the usual democratic process.

Two close friends - one Bremain, one on the fence but leaning towards Brexit - have separately expressed to me tonight that something odd is going on here.
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Discussions on BBC News suggest campaigning should be back on by Sunday if not tomorrow.

The Times is effectively back campaigning with a call for Bremain in Saturdays edition. The Daily Telegraph highlights the Brexit side on its front page.
 
What do they mean by "something odd"? I assume you don't mean the murder itself is somehow the result of a grand orchestrated conspiracy.

So do they mean odd in the culture that parliamentarians and journalists...not the public...are singing the praises of a seemingly genuinely good person they apparently genuinely liked and whose brutal direct butchery, similar to that of Lee Rigby which recieved every bit as much coverage, has shaken them personally as they realise it could just as easily have been any one of them?

I'm not sneering at you by the way Quake42, though I'm aware my question sounds incredibly sarky. I'm just making the point "something odd" can only be judged if the suspicion is spelled out.

I really don't see anything extraordinary about the reaction at all. The incident only happened yesterday so the news coverage is hardly excessive given the rarity and savagery of the incident for an MP in this country, and those in power in all parties will have genuinely felt personally shocked far more than if it had happened to someone unconnected in a different field. Its hit home. Journalists report on and know parliamentarians. its a big, big story.

As for the not standing in the by election..its no doubt gesturing, but its sincerely felt. The Tory party may have also thought we won't look good if we do try and take advantage of this by fighting for the seat, and once one party backed out the rest for the same reasons will have felt all the more rotten if they didn't follow suit. They're acting as human beings.

As for ian gow..that was 30 years ago, a different person in a different world. Personally I never bought the wailing over diana stuff either...I only ever saw it in the papers/on telly, never in real life. It always struck me as a complete fantasy that the general public were affected that much.
 
gattino said:
As for ian gow..that was 30 years ago, a different person in a different world. Personally I never bought the wailing over diana stuff either...I only ever saw it in the papers/on telly, never in real life. It always struck me as a complete fantasy that the general public were affected that much.
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I wouldn't disagree that the Diana frenzy was fuelled by cheap emotional manipulation by various news media, but I certainly saw it at first hand: a girl I was somewhat involved with went full-on hysterical and had many tearful phone conversations with her mother, and a friend was barred from his local for the offence of opining how regrettable Diana's end was and how her life had gone off the rails not entirely through any fault of her own - and that the real tragedy was that she was, all said and done, a flawed and fragile human being, not some saint or Earthbound Goddess. In fact he was told he was an evil bastard and would 'rot in hell' by the landlord. I'm not being deliberately unkind, but I assure you that the snarling, grief-stricken people concerned had been salivating over lurid tabloid intrusions into her love life right up to the day she died.

I suppose it's possible that a subconscious sense of guilt may have played a part.
 
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gattino said:
Personally I never bought the wailing over diana stuff either...I only ever saw it in the papers/on telly, never in real life. It always struck me as a complete fantasy that the general public were affected that much.
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As a non-Royalist, and somebody who mostly ignores Celeb Kulcher in general, I was very surprised by my own reaction to Diana's death. I followed all the news on the day it happened, and I even watched the whole funeral on TV.

If that could happen to me, I'm not at all surprised at the reaction of the general public.

Probably an extreme case of "Send not to ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee."
 
gattino said:
What do they mean by "something odd"? I assume you don't mean the murder itself is somehow the result of a grand orchestrated conspiracy.

So do they mean odd in the culture that parliamentarians and journalists...not the public...are singing the praises of a seemingly genuinely good person they apparently genuinely liked and whose brutal direct butchery, similar to that of Lee Rigby which recieved every bit as much coverage, has shaken them personally as they realise it could just as easily have been any one of them?

I'm not sneering at you by the way Quake42, though I'm aware my question sounds incredibly sarky. I'm just making the point "something odd" can only be judged if the suspicion is spelled out.
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Not a problem and not sarky at all.

I think firstly both of them, like me, raised eyebrows at the timing, which came at what had looked like a crucial turning point for the referendum.

On further enquiry they weren't quite saying the murder was orchestrated - one of them initially opined that this was a possibility, but then rowed back somewhat. Instead, they thought the reaction was OTT and that normally the media would have moved on to something else by now, especially when there is such a massive consititional question about to be asked. Both were also concerned the referendum might be cancelled off the back of this.

There was also great concern that the reaction will be to stifle open discussion further. I share this concern. We have had 25 years of speech codes limiting what can be said on matters of identity, ethnicity, culture etc. Now this is lifting somewhat, this horrible event happens and we're already hearing calls for clampdowns on people spreading "hate" which, as we've seen elsewhere, can simply mean something someone else disagrees with.

ramonmercado said:
Discussions on BBC News suggest campaigning should be back on by Sunday if not tomorrow.
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I'm a Vote Leave volunteer and we've heard nothing. This was supposed to be a big weekend for campaigning.
 
I can see why the more enthusiastic/passionate leave side of the referendum debate (my perception is that the remain half of the country are not fighting to attain some great goal but more passively are content with the way things are. Much like the Scottish referendum) may worry that they're on the verge of something and this will somehow frustrate their efforts. But it really doesn't stack up, I don't think.

I was watching the news through the day when it happened and it was in fact the Leave campaign who first announced they were stopping campaigning...Remain followed suit a couple of hours later (they'd hardly have a choice once the other side had been all noble first!) So there's clearly no hint of an anti-leave conspiracy there.

In terms of effect I can't see how it helps one side over the other either. Leave had slipped into the lead in the opinion polls in the last week or so and you could imagine/fear/hope that this breather would stop that traction....but its not clear why that's any more true than saying its preventing Remain from being able to turn things round in the limited time left.

I personally can't see how either the incident or the break in campaigning will effect voting in the slightest. But I'm pretty sure if Remain win that Leave will CLAIM it did.
 
gattino said:
I can see why the more enthusiastic/passionate leave side of the referendum debate (my perception is that the remain half of the country are not fighting to attain some great goal but more passively are content with the way things are. Much like the Scottish referendum) may worry that they're on the verge of something and this will somehow frustrate their efforts. But it really doesn't stack up, I don't think.

I was watching the news through the day when it happened and it was in fact the Leave campaign who first announced they were stopping campaigning...Remain followed suit a couple of hours later (they'd hardly have a choice once the other side had been all noble first!) So there's clearly no hint of an anti-leave conspiracy there.

In terms of effect I can't see how it helps one side over the other either. Leave had slipped into the lead in the opinion polls in the last week or so and you could imagine/fear/hope that this breather would stop that traction....but its not clear why that's any more true than saying its preventing Remain from being able to turn things round in the limited time left.

I personally can't see how either the incident or the break in campaigning will effect voting in the slightest. But I'm pretty sure if Remain win that Leave will CLAIM it did.
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I've heard it likened to a football game where the underdogs find themselves two goals up. The favourites have an injury and they stretch out the injury time as much as they can - it allows them too rest and regroup and breaks the other side's momentum.

More to the point perhaps we have traditional and social media talking about a "Brexit murderer" - on the basis of no evidence whatsoever - a disgraceful Guardian article calling Michael Gove a facist and saying that the ugly arguments have led directly to Cox's death - and a European Commissioner saying she was killed for her support for the EU.

Personally I think this may have won the referendum for Remain. I hope people see through it.
 
This thread is rather distasteful, don't you think? Some posters seem to be tying themselves in knots trying desperately not to see what's in front of their eyes.

I don't like what this board has become.
 
Quake42 said:
I've heard it likened to a football game where the underdogs find themselves two goals up. The favourites have an injury and they stretch out the injury time as much as they can - it allows them too rest and regroup and breaks the other side's momentum.

More to the point perhaps we have traditional and social media talking about a "Brexit murderer" - on the basis of no evidence whatsoever - a disgraceful Guardian article calling Michael Gove a facist and saying that the ugly arguments have led directly to Cox's death - and a European Commissioner saying she was killed for her support for the EU.

Personally I think this may have won the referendum for Remain. I hope people see through it.
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We have to careful about connecting the murder to Brexit. The attack appears to be a lone wolf one.

His links are to Britain First, he appears in a photo of a BF demo on the BF site, and to other fascists.

During campaigns there will be sharp debate on both sides but Gove is not a fascist.

Farage's comments though, about possible violence on the streets if Brexit lost, were over the top. I doubt if anyone here would find it acceptable if John McDonnell were to suggest that riots could happen if Bremain lost.
 
ramonmercado said:
We have to careful about connecting the murder to Brexit. The attack appears to be a lone wolf one.

His links are to Britain First, he appears in a photo of a BF demo on the BF site, and to other fascists.

During campaigns there will be sharp debate on both sides but Gove is not a fascist.

Farage's comments though, about possible violence on the streets if Brexit lost, were over the top. I doubt if anyone here would find it acceptable if John McDonnell were to suggest that riots could happen if Bremain lost.
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careful ramon, talking sense on this thread is against the rules
 
ramonmercado said:
We have to careful about connecting the murder to Brexit. The attack appears to be a lone wolf one.

His links are to Britain First, he appears in a photo of a BF demo on the BF site, and to other fascists.

During campaigns there will be sharp debate on both sides but Gove is not a fascist.

Farage's comments though, about possible violence on the streets if Brexit lost, were over the top. I doubt if anyone here would find it acceptable if John McDonnell were to suggest that riots could happen if Bremain lost.
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I agree it should not be linked to Brexit, but the media is doing this. Not just in the UK - European papers reported on "bloody Brexit" and the EU Commissioner for migration stated that Cox was murdered because of her support for the EU.

No one knows what motivated the killer and I'm still keen to know who the other guy with injuries was - if you recall the original reports stated that she had got in the middle of an argument between her attacker and another man. We do know that Mair had sought emergency help at a mental health centre the day before and been turned away. The rush to ascribe political motivations to the attack seems premature - and could of course prejudice any trial - but attempts to link it to Leave are disgraceful IMO.

Novena said:
This thread is rather distasteful, don't you think? Some posters seem to be tying themselves in knots trying desperately not to see what's in front of their eyes.

I don't like what this board has become.
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I haven't seen anything on this thread which is disrespectful to Ms Cox. There has been discussion on the way the media and others appear to be reporting the case and linking it to the current referendum campaign.

"False flag" theories have been discussed although I don't think anyone has supported them.

Pretty similar to other threads over the FTMB's history - see discussions on 7/7, Charlie Hebdo, the McCann case and others. I don't see what's different about this thread.
 
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