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The Roswell Incident [1947]

Captured German WW II scientist Wernher von Braun and his group is responsible for all our rocket programs.

A persistent idea about The Roswell Crash is that it was an German experiment gone wrong with German biological altered midgets who were the pilots.

There are rumors that an out of control test V-2 rocket almost hit Las Vegas ?
 
There is a helpful summary published in 'The Roswell Incident', by Berlitz and Moore:

"Based on the information we have obtained thus far, we can postulate a tentative picture of the sequence of events and discovery. At between 9:45 and 9:50 P.M. on the evening of July 2, 1947, what appeared to be a flying saucer passed over Roswell heading northwest at a high rate of speed, as witnessed by the Wilmots. Somewhere north of Roswell, the saucer ran into the lightning storm witnessed by Brazel, made a course correction to the south-southwest, was struck by a lightning bolt, and suffered severe on-board damage. A great quantity of wreckage was blown out over the ground, but the saucer itself, although stricken, managed to remain in the air for at least long enough to get over the mountains before crashing violently to the ground in the area west of Socorro known as the Plains of San Agustin.

The wreckage that had fallen on the Brazel ranch was discovered the next morning by Brazel as he was riding over his pasture, and only after that was Major Marcel of Roswell Army Air Base alerted. In the case of the saucer itself and its ill-fated crew, it had by chance come down near the spot where Barnett was scheduled to do a survey jon the next morning and the archaeology students were scheduled to begin their dig.

At the second site on the Plains of San Agustin in Catron County, the military took over more quickly than at the first because of the delay involved between the time Brazel discovered the wreckage and the time he finally reported it to the authorities. Although the sequence of events at the San Agustin site had taken place several days before those at the Brazel ranch and in Roswell, news leaks from the San Agustin site were more effectively plugged and information coming in to media sources was slow to arrive and sketchy at best.

As a result, even though this first military intervention did not come from the Roswell base, the early reports on the radio and in the press, in their confusion, assumed there was only one site and quite understandably referred only to the first site of the wreckage, which had received considerably more publicity because of Haul's premature news release. (One actually begins to wonder at this point whether Haut might have been ordered to leak the Roswell story to the press and write his news release specifically for the purpose of diverting attention away from the San Agustin incident.) In any event, indications are that the military group at the San Agustin site came from the air base at Alamogordo on the White Sands Proving Grounds, and that the secrecy involved here was far greater than at Roswell.

Even so, military communications were apparently working well at a high level, for a hastily assembled scientific-military expedition was, according to an alleged participant, sent to Muroc Air Base in California to meet the train which was to bring them the recovered wreckage and bodies (and possibly the two survivors as well). This hastily assembled military-scientific group may have furnished the first approximate physical description of the occupants of the saucer and answered the question as to whether "they" were unlucky human test pilots or travelers from another world who had found their final destination on ours.
(End)

For more background, there is a copy of the book available here:

www.forteanmedia.com/The_Roswell_Incident.pdf

This would seem to confirm my personal conclusion, as expressed:

"Essentially, the photographed debris needs to have been extraterrestrial, or the only, central, tangible evidence is testimony to a popularised mythology".

Fair to say it's one or the other and there is no middle ground?
 
Brazel was held for one week, then threatened and released, refusing to speak much about it for the rest of his life. If it was a silly weather balloon or some other innocent explanation, one would think Brazel would have simply stated this, particularly to his friends and neighbors, and let it go at that.
Brazel was never held in jail - for more information about the very points you raise re Brazel, the aforementioned book, 'The Roswell Incident', available to download, is helpful.

You add:

"...since the military themselves stated it was a 'flying saucer', then changed their mind..."

This is where the perception has been misleading, so many years afterwards.

We are not dealing with circumstances where it was announced that the much later popularised perception of a 'flying saucer' spaceship, resembling an upturned 'soup plate', or two 'stuck together', had crash-landed and strewn wreckage.

The announcement was:

"The many rumors regarding the flying disc became a reality yesterday when the Intelligence office of the 509th Bomb Group of the Eighth Air Force, Roswell Army Air Field, was fortunate enough to gain possession of a disc through the cooperation of one of the local ranchers and the sheriff's office of Chaves County.

The flying object landed on a ranch near Roswell sometime last week. Not having phone facilities, the rancher stored the disc until such time as he was able to contact the sheriff's office, who in turn notified Maj. Jesse A. Marcel of the 509th Bomb Group Intelligence Office.

Action was immediately taken and the disc was picked up at the rancher's home. It was inspected at the Roswell Army Air Field and subsequently loaned by Major Marcel to higher headquarters".


The reason it was reported as a 'flying disc', is simply that the 'disc' which had been 'stored' by Brazel was believed to be exactly that - one of them which had been seen and reported during the past two weeks, since Kenneth Arnold's story made headlines and sparked both a public and media frenzy, wondering what these things were.

It's a critical factor that 'flying discs', or 'flying saucers', were only two weeks old and everyone was baffled.

The Foster ranch debris seemed to fit the bill - it could obviously fly, was silvery and had not as yet been identified as anything else.

All which happened next, is that it was.

Descriptions of the debris found and recovered, never changed at any time.
 
...a discredit campaign against mortician Glenn Dennis, probably the only true witness to the UFO crash.
I can well remember watching the interview with Glenn Dennis, many years ago, with my cousin, Rob, who was skeptical about the whole thing.

Here, I pointed out, is as reliable and sincere a witness as you could hope for.

I must not have been so cautious in those days!

Alas, there does seem to be inherent issues of fundamental concern:

Glenn Dennis Lies?
Kevin Randle Blogg
13 April, 2020

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2020/04/glenn-dennis-lies.html?m=1
 
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I can well remember watching the interview with Glenn Dennis, many years ago, with my cousin, Rob, who was skeptical about the whole thing.

Here, I pointed out, is as reliable and sincere a witness as you could hope for.

I must not have been so cautious in those days!

Alas, there does seem to be inherent issues of fundamental concern:

Glenn Dennis Lies?
Kevin Randle Blogg
13 April, 2020

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2020/04/glenn-dennis-lies.html?m=1


I note that Randle's site again includes a sort of fallback argument for committed Roswell believers, in this case Carey's suggestion that Dennis had overheard other people discussing a genuinely anomalous crash, blah blah.

Much of the 'corroborative' detail in Dennis' story - names etc - points to the 50s rather than the 40s. This ties in with the later Air Force conclusion that Dennis was drawing on, consciously or otherwise, memories of the crash of a military aircraft some years later - something the USAF investigators were pretty cheesed off about.

I have no doubt that Dennis was including some genuine memories to give his story local colour but whether he was actively lying, or just mistakenly conflated these incidents with rumours about the events involving Marcel, I've no idea. Maybe it was a bit of both.
 
Essentially, the photographed debris needs to have been extraterrestrial, or the only, central, tangible evidence is testimony to a popularised mythology".

Fair to say it's one or the other and there is no middle ground?

Of course, otherwise you'd have to assume that the "great quantity of wreckage (...) blown out" of the "stricken saucer" included balsa wood sticks and balloon rubber.

The problem with the 'two sites' narrative is that it's basically twisting the evidence to breaking point to fit in a couple of very dubious stories, such as the Barnett-via-some-other-person tale.
 
When you think about it, we are still talking about the Roswell Crash 75 years later.

This is unusual.
I think the reason is that if you go back over - as we have been - the extraordinary claims made and seemingly, even if in some instances only at the time, reasonably credible, there's an enormous amount.

I have been re-reading the account, albeit second-hand, as purportedly related by 'Barney' Barnett - from 'The Roswell Incident' - and it has that sense of being a genuine experience.

The 'official' explanation, in more recent years, is that he came across the aftermath of a classified 'crash test dummies' operation.

Maybe so, however, you can understand why this, plus the testimony of Glenn Dennis, et al., emerged as a compelling story.

Well, several different stories - I've lost count of how many crash sites and the various types of spaceships!

For many, quite understandably, what would appear to be the simple explanation is... just too much so.

Furthermore, with our aberrant 'top secret' mogul balloon, etc and 'crash test dummies' then later added to the mix, it all become somewhat more complicated and complex, rather than straightforward as intended!
 
I think the reason is that if you go back over - as we have been - the extraordinary claims made and seemingly, even if in some instances only at the time, reasonably credible, there's an enormous amount.

I have been re-reading the account, albeit second-hand, as purportedly related by 'Barney' Barnett - from 'The Roswell Incident' - and it has that sense of being a genuine experience.

The 'official' explanation, in more recent years, is that he came across the aftermath of a classified 'crash test dummies' operation.

Maybe so, however, you can understand why this, plus the testimony of Glenn Dennis, et al., emerged as a compelling story.

Well, several different stories - I've lost count of how many crash sites and the various types of spaceships!

For many, quite understandably, what would appear to be the simple explanation is... just too much so.

Furthermore, with our aberrant 'top secret' mogul balloon, etc and 'crash test dummies' then later added to the mix, it all become somewhat more complicated and complex, rather than straightforward as intended!

The Barnett story, of course, was second-hand too, being told years later by Vern Maltais. All these yarns have the gloss of credibility - poor storytellers don't bother telling stories in the first place.

What amuses me about the likes of Berlitz and Moore is that we are supposed to believe that at this 'remote' desert crash site we had Barnett, Holden and his team of archaeologists, a large military convoy...and then Ragsdale in his tent, Gerald Andersen, etc.
 
... Well, several different stories - I've lost count of how many crash sites and the various types of spaceships! ...

There are basically 3 crash sites widely cited in relation to the Roswell incident or a series of incidents of which the core Roswell story was a part: Aztec (in far northwest New Mexico); the Corona area (within tens of miles from the Foster Ranch); and the Plains of San Agustin (circa 150 miles to the west of the Corona area).

Of these, the Aztec crash story from 1948 may be the most important in terms of influencing the emergence of later saucer crash stories and being the first to claim a large craft of unusual type had crashed, unusual corpses were lying at the crash site, and the military swept in to take everything away.

The source of the story - two con artists named Newton and Grebauer - were convicted of fraud in 1953. They had been citing the saucer crashed at Aztec as the source of alien technology exploited in the "doodlebug" devices they peddled as detectors of petroleum and gold. The Aztec crash story was thoroughly debunked as a hoax, but its essential elements (crashed saucer; bodies; military clean-up) lived on in UFO publications. The fourth - more implicit - element of the Aztec hoax story was that civilians had witnessed the crash site and / or obtained bits of the wreckage.

During the run-up to the 50th anniversary of Roswell (i.e., circa 1995 - 1997) I conducted a massive literature review on the Roswell story, extending from the 1947 news articles up through the UFO literature (bulletins; newsletters; pulp paranormal books) of the Fifties and Sixties, ending with the outputs of the Roswell Renaissance from the Seventies / Eighties onward.

I found that the legacy elements of the Aztec story (with or without naming Aztec as the crash site) were being blended into the Roswell stories as early as the mid-Fifties, some of which went so far as to suggest the debris Brazel found had been lost from the saucer during its final time aloft. These incorporations of Aztec elements pre-dated the emergence of the Barney Barnett / Plains of San Agustin story and the proposition a second, larger, crash site had existed (and been cleared) somewhere in the Corona area.

To make matters more confusing, various authors have claimed the specific crash site locations to be in different places - most particularly those claiming there was a primary crash site in the Corona area.

The disturbing facts are that the only (near-) contemporary claim of a second / primary crash site was an outright hoax, the later claims all mysteriously seem to preserve the essential elements of that original hoax story, and none of the later claims of crash sites in the Corona area or the Plains appeared in print until at least a third of a century after the 1947 events. Furthermore, much of the bases for these later crash site claims derive from second-hand (or even more indirect) testimony / evidence glued together with generous dollops of speculation and / or insinuation.

It's a mess.
 
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Just my opinion that there are too many books, tv shows, documentaries, articles, and the like on this case -
To get to the bottom of anything as huge as this, one would have to start from the very beginning, and that would be Mac Brazel.
Looking at it logically, Brazel would have simply come forward and said it was all nothing, but that was not what he did.
Brazel's actions tell a bigger story, in my opinion. This man was not stupid.
 
I don't really see that Mac Brazel's actions tell any kind of story, to be honest. Brazel described a field of unremarkable debris, exactly consistent with a crashed balloon.

After the USAF gave their interpretation of events on July 9th, Brazel gave this account;
"There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument, although there were letters on some of the parts. Considerable Scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction."

After this he never mentioned the event in public again. All we have is second-hand testimony from his son, given more than 30 years later, to various UFO researchers, and is less reliable, if at all.

The fact that there were letters on the debris points very strongly to a mundane origin.
 
I don't really see that Mac Brazel's actions tell any kind of story, to be honest. Brazel described a field of unremarkable debris, exactly consistent with a crashed balloon.

After the USAF gave their interpretation of events on July 9th, Brazel gave this account;
"There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument, although there were letters on some of the parts. Considerable Scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction."

After this he never mentioned the event in public again. All we have is second-hand testimony from his son, given more than 30 years later, to various UFO researchers, and is less reliable, if at all.

The fact that there were letters on the debris points very strongly to a mundane origin.
Did hear the comment on the 'Blaze' Channel, just the other day, about possible underground tunnels (linked tunnels) supposed to be underneath Rosewell?
 
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Tunnels are a fascinating topic, and we have discussed them in the forum at various times; but I don't know if there is a dedicated thread. Sometimes there really are tunnels in the locations described, but in the vast majority of cases they are nothing but a myth.
 
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I don't really see that Mac Brazel's actions tell any kind of story, to be honest. Brazel described a field of unremarkable debris, exactly consistent with a crashed balloon. ...

Agreed ...

Brazel's involvement was limited to dealing with unexpected junk littering the ground at the Foster Ranch, where he was the foreman, and bringing the debris to the attention of authorities.

He'd originally spotted the debris in mid-June (early accounts stated 14 June) while checking the ranch lands and fences some miles away from the ranch house. He took a sample of the debris back to the house. On 4 July he and his family (wife and 2 kids) traveled out to the debris site and gathered the material, bundling or bagging it up. Accounts vary in stating whether the collected debris was transported back to the ranch house, stowed out at the scene, or both.

Brazel showed a sample of the material to neighbors and / or his brother-in-law one or more days after 4 July. Someone to whom he showed the material mentioned recent stories of "flying saucers" and wondered if the mystery material might be related to them. This was when Brazel first became aware of the emerging flying disk frenzy. It prompted him to take some of the material with him when he traveled to Roswell on ranch business a couple of days later. He contacted the sheriff in Roswell to report the debris and show him a sample. The sheriff contacted the USAAF at the Roswell air base, and they dispatched personnel to check the scene and collect the debris.

The Roswell incident was then off and running.

Given the unwelcome publicity, Brazel would soon express regret for having brought the debris to anyone's attention and stated he wouldn't be doing that again.
 
Tunnels are a fascinating topic, and we have discussed them in the forum at various times; but I don't know if there is a dedicated thread. Sometimes there really are tunnels in the locations described, but in the vast majority of cases they are nothing but a myth.

Should be a topic - 'secret' tunnels (often running from a church to a local big house, inn etc) are such a familiar of local folklore, in the UK anyway. People in my local town are obsessed with the town's 'secret' tunnel network still. In reality they are just a myth, largely caused by old cellars or culverts being mistaken for 'tunnels'.
 
Aha! I was looking for this and only just located a copy online - not had time to it myself, as yet.

I knew of its existence, as there are some transcripts.

Perhaps of interest to those who, likewise, maybe haven't seen it before?

Roswell: The First Witness" on the HISTORY channel

 
Having a cursory search on YouTube, for any contemporary, 1947 newsreel broadcasts, the following turned up unexpectedly.

It's part 2 of a fascinating and highly recommend, three-part interview series wth Bea Sutton, recalling her life and particularly upbringing through the depression, etc.

I highlight same, because she apparently lived in Roswell at the time our story broke and provides some intriguing insight.

It's regrettably unclear if her answers are influenced by exposure to media coverage from the 1980s, however, she refers to one person who picked up part of the debris as being the son of the local hardware store owner and speaks of a nurse being involved.

Although presumably well-known, I can't see any mention online, of Bea Sutton talking about the Roswell case.

Who would be the hardware owner's son?

The relevant dialogue begins at 6 minutes
into the video.

Bea Sutton Part 2

 
... It's regrettably unclear if her answers are influenced by exposure to media coverage from the 1980s, however, she refers to one person who picked up part of the debris as being the son of the local hardware store owner and speaks of a nurse being involved.
Who would be the hardware owner's son? ...

Dan Wilmot and his wife claimed (in July 1947) they'd been at home in Roswell and observed a saucer-like object traveling at high speed from SE to NW on 2 July.

Wilmot is variously described as "a hardware man"; someone who works at the hardware store; and a "business owner."

The Wilmots' observation is mentioned in the famous front page newspaper article on 8 July.

This webpage provides an overview of the Wilmots' observation, citing multiple sources:

https://ufologie.patrickgross.org/rw/w/danwilmot.htm

There's no mention of a son, nor is there any mention of the Wilmots ever traveling out to the Foster Ranch.
 
Mack Brazel's story of the debris discovery and the materials he'd found was published in the Roswell Daily Record on 9 July 1947. Here's the news article.

RoswellDailyRecord-470709.jpg
 
Agreed ...

Brazel's involvement was limited to dealing with unexpected junk littering the ground at the Foster Ranch, where he was the foreman, and bringing the debris to the attention of authorities.

He'd originally spotted the debris in mid-June (early accounts stated 14 June) while checking the ranch lands and fences some miles away from the ranch house. He took a sample of the debris back to the house. On 4 July he and his family (wife and 2 kids) traveled out to the debris site and gathered the material, bundling or bagging it up. Accounts vary in stating whether the collected debris was transported back to the ranch house, stowed out at the scene, or both.

Brazel showed a sample of the material to neighbors and / or his brother-in-law one or more days after 4 July. Someone to whom he showed the material mentioned recent stories of "flying saucers" and wondered if the mystery material might be related to them. This was when Brazel first became aware of the emerging flying disk frenzy. It prompted him to take some of the material with him when he traveled to Roswell on ranch business a couple of days later. He contacted the sheriff in Roswell to report the debris and show him a sample. The sheriff contacted the USAAF at the Roswell air base, and they dispatched personnel to check the scene and collect the debris.

The Roswell incident was then off and running.

Given the unwelcome publicity, Brazel would soon express regret for having brought the debris to anyone's attention and stated he wouldn't be doing that again.

I think it's been remarked by a few people that a magazine had in the previous few days put up a $3000 reward for evidence, though I'm not sure I've seen a statement from Brazel himself confirming that this is what spurred him to actually retrieve the debris.
 
Paul Wilmot met with Jesse Marcel in 1980. He related his parents' story on a 1980 episode of In Search Of (the TV series).

Paul Wilmot isn't mentioned as having witnessed the UFO nor ever traveling to the alleged crash site.
You are the fount of all knowledge.

That's an immense help - would never have made the connection. So, maybe a false memory from the ever so engaging Bea?

Ties it all up nicely though and greatly appreciated. As suggested, the three-part interview is recommended watching for the historical perspective alone and it's a harrowing story at times.
 
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I think it's been remarked by a few people that a magazine had in the previous few days put up a $3000 reward for evidence...
I am sure there is a reference somewhere to Brazel hearing of reward money for evidence of a 'flying disc', when later in town, although presumably not that much!

Shall see if I can find same.

Warning though! I recall there are several different versions of who Brazel actually told about having found the debris and what factually happened next. :)
 
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Warning though! I recall there are several different versions of who Brazel actually told about having found the debris and what factually happened next.
Here's one for a start - it was nothing to do with Brazel first hearing of the 'flying discs', when he went into town (Corona?), some days after his find:

"Brazel said he hadn’t heard of the “flying discs” at the time, but several days later his brother-in-law, Hollis Wilson, told him of the disc reports and suggested it might be one".

There's also another account of a local radio station being involved, if I remember?
 
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I find the narrative that Brazel saw the debris in mid-June, gathered some up on 4th July, and only heard about the 'flying discs' the next day to be a bit odd. It would make more sense that he heard about the discs in some way prior to going back to the debris - although him moving it because he felt it was bothering the sheep is plausible, I suppose.
 
....and only heard about the 'flying discs' the next day to be a bit odd...
A cross-post with my reference to the 'Albuquerque Journal' 50th anniversary article!

Frank Joyce's story is fascinating...
 
Frank Joyce's story is fascinating...
"It was the famous cowboy, W.W. Brazel. This Brazel was on the phone and he had heard me reading a news story about the guy Kenneth Arnold in Washington who had seen a bunch of flying saucers".

I thought Brazel didn't have a radio?
 
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