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Does Magick Work?

yes i agree
but
somethings are universially wrong/right
yes some cultures think one and another
but most things that are wrong hold true across cultures
if a person dose wrong and thinks hes right he will almost always have to face his wrong untill he sees the error of his ways,that is it keeps happening like a kind of nudge to his conscience

the stranger thing is what happens to those who chose to do the right thing?
 
Wrong / Right are Subjective

Sorry, everything's relative in a subjective judgment of right and wrong. There is no physics to right or wrong. There is, in nature, as much destruction as creation, arguably more, and entropy seems unstoppable. So you can't even peg wrong to that.

There are no absolutes.

Conscience doesn't afflict more than about 10% of us these days, if you haven't noticed.
 
Yes, concepts of wrong or right aren't at all static - there are situations where something that is generally perceived to be wrong is excused in certain situations. Somehow we have, in those cases, to suspend our disbelief or turn a blind eye to what we've been told is always wrong. 'That shalt not kill', for example. This is said by some to be a universal, although there seem to be various opt-out clauses. And if there were universal truths, societies wouldn't have developed laws, etc. over the centuries - such things would have been arrived at a long time ago fully formed and be absolute constants to this day. Tin Finger, you seem to be suggesting there is some sort of retribution that exists 'out there' that catches up with people - how much this is actually true or is a folkloric construct is difficult to prove ;)
 
I thought the FBI piece in the current issue (FT192:32-33) was intersting on this front. From a longer relevant post:

You can prove it yorself - just stand by a bus stop and light a cigarette and any number of buses will appear by magic. It didn't work when they allowed smoking on buses, of course
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My friends and I play a similar "Lucky Fag" game when waiting for a cab. We'll try and spot the lucky fag in a packet and then use it to summon the taxi forth.

Obviously you remember the hits more than the misses or cobble together so explanation when it doesn't work - like you'd mistaken the lucky fag for another ordinary one (as they do look the same).

Clearly this is an example of someone changing their perceptions of causality.

Peter Mastin also says he got into magic when a lot of his friends were dying and he was feeling powerless and this is one of the reasons people have used magic through the ages and its revitalisation in the developed world at the same time science has progressed may show that people are feeling less in control and less empowered. If you are ill your doctor sends you to various specialists who you have never met.

In some ways I wonder if the Internet allows people to re-empower themsevles by speaking ot others in a similar situation and being able to research their porblems and look into side effects, alternatives, etc. but it is also something science really has to understand and take on board or we need to entwine magic and science or..........
 
"There are no absolutes. "

...except just this one? :?:
 
Re: Fear Unfounded

FraterLibre said:
This cringing attitude toward magick presupposes there is a "force" of some kind "out there" that will "fly out of control" -- Sorceror's Apprentice style -- if we "meddle with what we don't understand".

This is of course just malarkey intended to ward off the mildly and idly curious, who make a hash of things.

All is one, no separation. There is no Out There. If it is anywhere, it is everywhere. Including in each of us.

What ever it may be in one's individual lexicon.

Fearing "it" is fearing one's self.

And given human nature, that's not a bad idea.

Consider Faust.
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You assume I talk of an "out there", I would agree with "if it is anywhere, it is everywhere", but this still makes me think that for a human to approach with something so all encompassing and potentially powereful needs abit more thought, considering possibly over ambitous hopes, lack of understanding, or ofcourse questionable motives.
I'm wary of those who claim to have an interest or practice since it became fashionable. They dabble then exaggerate the minor coincidences or anomalies.
I wanted to read more about genuine practices, but found only pop magic suggesting you bury half a fresh apple in the ground and wait three weeks for it to turn into to cash or something.
Sorry if I seem insensitive, but I wanted to know more about the belief system.
 
Sorry if I seem insensitive, but I wanted to know more about the belief system.
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A good book to read is Visual Magick, a Manual of Freestyle Shamanism by Jan Fries, with a good overview of what magick is about, without all the pony and ceremonial stuff.

http://www.occultebooks.com/resources/reviews/freestyle_shamanism.htm

After a period of using sigils, I've just started experimenting with servitors (kind of a thoughtform, almost like an imaginary friend) to help me with my art and confidence, and before I'd even started the process of getting it working, it brought to my intention at least three things initially that I needed just by a statement of intent and a sigil design. It's still working, prodding me along when I get lazy, and helping with my ideas.

It's just another thing that's proven to me without a doubt that magic(k) works, and how natural it actually is. I'd been dipping in and out of the Occult for almost fifteen years before I built up the courage to even try it out for myself. The key is to be realistic, start with something small, see if it works and then if it does, practice all the 'what ifs' and experiment with what's out there. The biggest problem you can have is to jump in at the deep end and then get second thoughts. Also no-one is 'right', just do what works for you, try not to get too bogged down with which colour robe to wear on the second night of Sahmain (it doesn't matter unless you want it to), or close your mind to anything.
 
I have to say that up until recently I thought it was a load of hogwash. My sister however changed my mind. I don't know how or what, but she has hexed my ex in some way so that all my bad luck becomes his. I didn't know about this until recently when she told me.

Evidence? - Well I am buying a nice house, have a good job, am very happy and content whilst he has gone from a good job, to a crappy job to unemployed and is now homeless and suffering from depression and didn't get his own way in court after lying through his back teeth.

Could be coincidence, but maybe not........
 
Elffriend said:
I have to say that up until recently I thought it was a load of hogwash. My sister however changed my mind. I don't know how or what, but she has hexed my ex in some way so that all my bad luck becomes his. I didn't know about this until recently when she told me.

Evidence? - Well I am buying a nice house, have a good job, am very happy and content whilst he has gone from a good job, to a crappy job to unemployed and is now homeless and suffering from depression and didn't get his own way in court after lying through his back teeth.

Could be coincidence, but maybe not........
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sounds to me more psychological than supernatural. Sounds like the guy is being dishonest with himself and others - that would produce the apparent ' bad luck' he has gone through. The good luck is probably as a result of the reverse. being honest with yourself and others tends to mean you work within your limitations and thus succeed more, and have less doubts about your actions and are thus happy. No need for supernatural cause.
 
bringerofbroom said:
Elffriend said:
I have to say that up until recently I thought it was a load of hogwash. My sister however changed my mind. I don't know how or what, but she has hexed my ex in some way so that all my bad luck becomes his. I didn't know about this until recently when she told me.

Evidence? - Well I am buying a nice house, have a good job, am very happy and content whilst he has gone from a good job, to a crappy job to unemployed and is now homeless and suffering from depression and didn't get his own way in court after lying through his back teeth.

Could be coincidence, but maybe not........
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sounds to me more psychological than supernatural. Sounds like the guy is being dishonest with himself and others - that would produce the apparent ' bad luck' he has gone through. The good luck is probably as a result of the reverse. being honest with yourself and others tends to mean you work within your limitations and thus succeed more, and have less doubts about your actions and are thus happy. No need for supernatural cause.
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Maybe, maybe.....the hex will be kept up though just in case :D
 
bringerofbroom said:
sounds to me more psychological than supernatural. Sounds like the guy is being dishonest with himself and others - that would produce the apparent ' bad luck' he has gone through. The good luck is probably as a result of the reverse. being honest with yourself and others tends to mean you work within your limitations and thus succeed more, and have less doubts about your actions and are thus happy. No need for supernatural cause.
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Maybe. But it's true that people who've had pepole pray for them (without their knowledge) have benefited from it. People can be cursed/blessed, again without their knowledge, and wonder why there's this stroke of bad/good luck happening.

There's also self fullfilling prophecy of course, but if we analyse everything all the time, where's the fun?
 
i can never understand why some people enjoy 'not knowing'. For me, the enjoyment is in understanding the world.
 
True, but sometimes when something has been scanned, poked, prodded and dissected, it becomes just another thing to be put away and read about from time to time.
I have a faint idea how my TV and video work, which is enough. While they are both relatively simple things compared to something like the human mind or God, I don't spend my time wondering how the image is translated from raw data to my TV screen, nor do I look behind my TV set wondering where the door for the little people to get out for their lunch break is. I just know that watching Sarah Michelle Gellar opening a can of whup-ass is visually exciting.
 
i accept that most of the time the fine details about how the world works arent that interesting, but knowing that they have been understood, that if you wanted to know you could find out is interesting to me. I find situations where the only explanation for something is 'just because' very annoying. to me it is a sign of intellectual laziness to not want to know.

someone not knowing why something is the way it is i accept. someone not wanting to know i cant.
 
bringerofbroom said:
I find situations where the only explanation for something is 'just because' very annoying. to me it is a sign of intellectual laziness to not want to know.

someone not knowing why something is the way it is i accept. someone not wanting to know i cant.
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Fair enough. But just because is often the only answer until we are able to understand things better. I can't prove if God or Satan or the Global Unconcious is behind Magick, and in probability will never be able to. Unless some being higher than me comes down on a flaming chariot driven by fire-breathing unicorns and explains how magick works I'll probably never know, so I don't waste my time with it.

I still find life interesting. :D [/u]
 
bringerofbroom said:
I find situations where the only explanation for something is 'just because' very annoying. to me it is a sign of intellectual laziness to not want to know.

someone not knowing why something is the way it is i accept. someone not wanting to know i cant.
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Fair enough. But just because is often the only answer until we are able to understand things better. I can't prove if God or Satan or the Global Unconcious is behind Magick, and in probability will never be able to. Unless some being higher than me comes down on a flaming chariot driven by fire-breathing unicorns and explains how magick works I'll probably never know, so I don't waste my time with it.

Angelina Jolie on the other hand, I would dearly love to know what makes her tick...
 
Yes, Magick does work. Black or white? Depends on your intention. Magick can be used to fulfill corporeal needs and it can be used for self-transformation. Some people use witchcraft without considering it's spiritual side and that's okay.

In Wicca our rule is, "An it harm none, doeth as thou wilt" or "if it harms nobody, do what you want".

As for Thelema(that Aleister Crowley founded and Israel Regardie took up) the law is "Love is the Law; Love Under Will".

Go ahead, take your little book of spells and experiment. I hope your book has safety measures taken in the Circle before spellcasting - because you want to avoid raising energy and having spiritual nasties come to try and take some or cause havoc in general. Some traditions don't use the Circle and that's all right, too.
 
bringerofbroom said:
i can never understand why some people enjoy 'not knowing'. For me, the enjoyment is in understanding the world.
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Many people don't want to go down paths that can upset their paradigm. The cognitive dissonance, the fear and even PTSD keep people away. Experiencing and conjecturing about things are two completely different things.
 
bringerofbroom said:
i can never understand why some people enjoy 'not knowing'. For me, the enjoyment is in understanding the world.
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I used to be very much someone who had to know, to the point that I'd decide how things were with very little evidence. Now I love knowing about the world, I love when things are unknown, perhaps unknowable, I love all the possibilities, and I love when evidence emerges that unveils some mystery. I regard learning to relish all these things as part of my personal growth, and I don't think of them as mutually exclusive.
 
Frideswide said:
this ^ is beautiful! :oldm:
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Thanks, but it's true. I try to keep up with the latest discoveries. But I get a strange kind of buzz when I discover there's evidence for something that just doesn't fit what's already established by science, and we're left with only hypotheses and guesses, even outlandish ones. I think that's the difference between the 'believer' I used to be, and the 'fortean' I now am.
 
razorblimp said:
Fair enough. But just because is often the only answer until we are able to understand things better. I can't prove if God or Satan or the Global Unconcious is behind Magick, and in probability will never be able to. Unless some being higher than me comes down on a flaming chariot driven by fire-breathing unicorns and explains how magick works I'll probably never know, so I don't waste my time with it.

I still find life interesting. :D [/u]
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Rupert Sheldrake's theories are much like magical principles, much to the consternation of his peers. Magical techniques could be developed based on them. I'm a fan of Austin Osman Spare too. Art and magic go together.
 
I practice magick but only when absolutely necessary after exploring all the normal avenues to instigate change. I follow the instructions - sigil, whatever - to the letter and it has ALWAYS worked. the best one was when I slammed a sigil at the wall of a noisy and obnoxious neighbour whose bedroom was next to mine. After months of noise nuisance from music, wailing, screaming, etc his stereo immediately, IMMEDIATELY blew up and he ran out of the house. He returned the next day in a van to shout down the street that he was never coming back. :) What makes this even more amusing is that AT THE SAME TIME and totally unbeknown to me in Manchester, a friend in London was performing a similar act of magick. HIS bastard neighbour suddenly ran into the garden, was violently sick and was carted off by a friend, yelling that he was leavig the area 'cos they were all cunts. Might have had a point there!
 
frankiefelix said:
I practice magick but only when absolutely necessary after exploring all the normal avenues to instigate change. I follow the instructions - sigil, whatever - to the letter and it has ALWAYS worked. the best one was when I slammed a sigil at the wall of a noisy and obnoxious neighbour whose bedroom was next to mine. After months of noise nuisance from music, wailing, screaming, etc his stereo immediately, IMMEDIATELY blew up and he ran out of the house. He returned the next day in a van to shout down the street that he was never coming back. :) What makes this even more amusing is that AT THE SAME TIME and totally unbeknown to me in Manchester, a friend in London was performing a similar act of magick. HIS bastard neighbour suddenly ran into the garden, was violently sick and was carted off by a friend, yelling that he was leavig the area 'cos they were all cunts. Might have had a point there!
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I've needed that a few times for bad neighbours who have no respect for anyone else.
 
Cursing is not recommended. There's always a return. IMO it takes more than it gives.
 
skinny said:
Cursing is not recommended. There's always a return. IMO it takes more than it gives.
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No, I don't think I'd mess with such stuff. Although it would be nice to think that there was a way of stopping inconsiderate, vile low-life that we all, (or most of us) have to put up with.
 
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