A Bizarre & Nasty Haunting

[Anonymous]

The fact that True Believers are just as fanatical has also been mentioned previously. I repeat it here to show that criticism has been aimed at both extremes of Faith.

I know and I don't take issue with any of that. Or with your opinion on Randi and how he presents himself in interviews - how could I?

I am taking issue with statements of fact about skeptics, which are untrue. Basically, doing to skeptics, what many here complain that skeptics do to them.

 

[Graylien]

Well, siince we've gone way off topic (my fault for mentioning Mr Randi in an aside), here's what the man himself had to say in a fairly recent interview

Through our conversation, I began to wonder if he was predisposed to a specific line of thought. Randi said, "I'm predisposed from this point of view: I'm seventy-four years of age. I gave this up when I was about sixty, but say for sixty years I keep watching the fireplace at the bottom of the chimney every December twenty-fourth -- all night. And the fat guy with the red suit doesn't come down with a bag of toys. I'm going to look around and say, 'Ya know, I think they've been kidding me. I don't think Santa Claus really exists.' So naturally I'm prejudiced against finding the fat guy in the red suit standing in my living room covered in soot. I'm prejudiced against it from experience -- from knowledge of the subject. I can't possibly claim that I'm not prejudiced against the phenomenon being true because I've been with it for many, many years. I've seen hundreds of people who tried to prove their claims, and none of them have been able to prove it. That doesn't prove that there is no such thing, it just shows that I have a prejudice based on experience."

 

[Anonymous]

I am taking issue with statements of fact about skeptics, which are untrue. Basically, doing to skeptics, what many here complain that skeptics do to them.

I don't agree that we were talking about all sceptics. We were talking about the fanatical ones. Rather like when we've talked about fanatical True Believers, who pretty much get the same comments made about them.

And, yes, it is my opinion about Randi. I should have made that clear. Obviously, I have no direct experience of the man (and given the Iron Rod Randi thing, I'm glad of that! ). I also have no direct experience of Uri Gellar, which is something else to be supremely thankful for, I would imagine.

As regards the article in FT, Demkina (is that her name?) correctly diagnosed 4 out of 7. The experimenters had agreed that 5 out of 7 was required to support her claims. While 5 out of 7 would have been incredibly impressive, I would have thought that 4 out of 7 would at least have warranted further investigation before labelling the girl a fraud. It would have been interesting to know what the medical conditions were, and how accurately she diagnosed them.

I did not like the comment from Wiseman, however, that the number of successes was set higher than the standard, simply because her extraordinary claims merited an extraordinary high success rate. That smacks of moving the goalposts.

Still, we have gone way off topic. Mind you, unless PaZZa finds the photo his Dad took of the face in the bannisters, it might be a bit difficult to get back onto topic.

Oh yes - Patrick Macnee's been on some Satellite channel all day doing a Ghost Stories programme. Most of which sounds complete tosh, to be honest. Something caught my attention about a whole housing estate somewhere in, I believe, Texas, built on a slave cemetary. Apparently, someone digging a swimming pool in their garden found two bodies. And reports of weirdness from day one of moving into the homes. One guy apparently attacked by shadow figures in his garage, who would smother and suffocate him.

Another story caught my attention about a school bus of children in the 1940s, where the bus stalled on the railway line and the 10 children on board died. There had been no warning of the oncoming train. Apparently, anyone stopping their car, turning it off and putting it in neutral, gets pushed uphill across the railway line, and there's lots of little fingerprints on the back of the car, as though it were pushed by children. Apparently, lots of people go there to test this out.

Does anyone know where I'm talking about?

The presenter (not Macnee) tested this, and it worked. With dust on the back of her car, she claimed to see small hand prints.

Well, I dunno. I know there are lots of places in the world where things appear to run uphill. I just want to know whether any other explanations have been given.

Same with the slave cemetary. I mean, on the face of it, these stories look like there's hard evidence there for investigators; but are they investigated properly? Supposedly, all the houses are for sale in the estate, and no-one will live there. Well, you couldn't do that without people noticing, could you?

So where did these stories come from? Any ideas?

 

[Anonymous]

Oh yes - the kids on the railway line thing. The street names all around have kids' names. And one woman claimed to have picked up a little girl called, I think, Cindy-Lou, or Cindy-Sue, late at night and driven to the address given by the little girl. When the woman got there, she said something about going to speak to the girl's parents, as she thought there might be some trouble, while the little girl stayed in the car. Then the woman answering the door became hysterical, shouting she would call the police and to let the child 'rest in peace'. When the driver went back to her car, the little girl had disappeared, but the door was still locked and the safety belt was still buckled in place.

Classic phantom hitch-hiker, eh?

 

[Leaferne]

Another story caught my attention about a school bus of children in the 1940s, where the bus stalled on the railway line and the 10 children on board died. There had been no warning of the oncoming train. Apparently, anyone stopping their car, turning it off and putting it in neutral, gets pushed uphill across the railway line, and there's lots of little fingerprints on the back of the car, as though it were pushed by children. Apparently, lots of people go there to test this out.

IMO these tales of dead children pushing vehicles across the tracks, leaving handprints, are fairly widespread. I wouldn't be surprised if every state/province/county had its own local version; it seems to be on its way to being as archetypal as the phantom hitchhiker.

 

[Anonymous]

I hadn't heard one claiming to have 'proof' in the form of handprints before. I was wondering about investigating whether an accident ever did take place, or whether it was a folklore explanation for things running uphill (or what appears to look uphill - if I'm making myself clear)

 

[Graylien]

There was a little article in the FT recently about various places where cars appeared to roll uphill. In all cases, it was shown to be an optical illusion.

 

[Anonymous]

Yep. That's what I mean. If I could find out where this place was, then maybe we can find out whether the accident took place, and maybe it's just a fanciful explanation for why the cars roll 'uphill'.*


*which is my suspicion

 

[ignatiusII]

I never fail to be dismayed by the level of discussion of skeptics by Forteans. You complain about how skeptics make blanket statements according to their preconceptions - perhaps you might take a look at your own comments on skeptics? That which isn't simply a sweeping generalisation is factually incorrect.

The Amazing "R" still has a standing offer of 1 mil US for any display of psychic "powers" that he can't reproduce by stage magic.

Not so. The details of the million dollar challenge are available here.

the blanket statement that all paranormal claims are pure bollocks without making a genuine attempt to determine just what exactly is going on

This is obviously not Randi's position, or he wouldn't offer a million dollars to anyone who can demonstrate a paranormal ability under controlled conditions.

Randi actually advocating that 'psudeoscience' known as cryptozoology - a field of study he has since gone on record as ridiculing.

Has he? Words from the man himself:

January 5, 2000

the Bigfoot (yeti, Sasquatch, Abominable Snowman, Meh-Teh, are other names) is a subject of the quite respectable science of cryptozoology, which deals with creatures about which the identity or even the existence, is unproven. And this discipline has had several startling victories in recent years, showing clearly that we would be unwise to dismiss claims of previously-unknown species.

November 8, 2002

Cryptozoology is a very valid, active, and productive science.

August 22, 2003

Many teams have been on Yeti hunts since the 1950s to verify the authenticity of tracks left in the Himalayas and elsewhere, but no conclusive scientific evidence has proved that the creature exists. With recent developments of cryptozoology such as the discovery of a "giant chimp" with distinctly unexpected facial features, explorers are well advised to spend time on such a project.

Clearly, the claim Randi considers cryptozoology as worthy of ridicule is contradicted by his own words.

It just wouldn't do for the posterboy for CICOP to be seen as advocating the hunting of 'monsters'.

Randi is no longer a member of CSICOP and hasn't been for years.

Well, one only has to read the article in FT194 about the girl with x-ray eyes to see what high standards they expect.

The idea that someone with "x-ray" eyes needs to prove themselves only to the level of statistical significance as a standard psychology experiment is absurd. Paraphrasing from Victor Zammit as if he was some disinterested level-headed commentator only makes FT look stupid.

The goal posts not only move, but they're invisible as well.

Demkina agreed to the protocol before taking the test. There are plenty of flaws in the experiment, but FT missed them all, and focussed on irrelevancies. The methodology has been criticised by other skeptics, so it's wrong to use this as an example of the standards and behaviours of skeptics in general.

For the rest of the comments, I'm not sure what a paraphrase of something Colin Wilson might have said proves, and I assume the bit about Colin Fry was a joke.

Now I know that none of this going to change anyone's minds about skeptics. But it is a bit rich to moan about

sarcastic cheap jibes and sneering

Skeptics could learn a lot from Forteans. But boy, could you chaps learn a thing or two from them. One of those things is that it might, at the least, be fair to actually check what it is that skeptics do and say, before making pronouncements about them.

The fact thar Randi is no longer a member of CICOP (sic) is quite irrelevent to the central gist of my initial statement; the fact is, he was a member of that organization for many years ( and one of it's most prominent members, at that ), and his current standing in the group notwithstanding, for most of the general media, he was CSICOPs public face and defacto spokesperson. I am readily aware of Randi's various flirtations with cryptozoology ( see my post for mention of 'herds of woolly mammoth', etc., etc., ) and while I may not have at my disposal the veritable plethora of quotations you kindly supplied, I have this one, from Randi himself, on the subject of cryptozoology: ''this (cryptozoology) is what I would call a fringe science... cryptozoologists...claim that whenever a new animal species is discovered, that this is somehow proof for the existence of monsters...show me your bigfoot, your nessie, show me the monsters. Of course, they can't, because they do not exist...funds are being wasted that could be put to better use in actual animal conservation...'' James Randi, 'Strange Universe' television series, Tribune Media, 1997. Whatever other statements he may have made in support of, or opposition to, the subject, this sounds a great deal like ridicule to me.

 

[RainyOcean]

I have definitly heard that same story that Ravenstone was talking about before. Everything from the bus getting stuck, to people testing it, to the hitchhiking ghost. I don't remember the handprints, but it was a long time ago and it might have just slipped my memory. I don't remember where it was, unfortunatelly. I'm wondering if I saw the same tv program or if this is a different one. Do you know if it was an old show that was being re-run or if it was new?

 

[Cider]

Raven, I found this on Snopes about the handprints on cars thing.

 

[RainyOcean]

When I first heard this story I thought it would be fun to go there and try this, but I'm wondering about something. Is it mean to use these ghost children like this? I mean, you may just be playing, but they're really trying to save your life.

 

[Anonymous]

Raven, I found this on Snopes about the handprints on cars thing.

That's it exactly! *Mmmmwwahh* <blows big kiss> Even down to the road signs with the kids' names. Cider gets the gold star.

Wel, that didn't stand up to much examination, did it?

So - anyone know about the haunted housing estate built on the slave cemetary?

 

[Anonymous]

kindly supplied, I have this one, from Randi himself, on the subject of cryptozoology: ''this (cryptozoology) is what I would call a fringe science... cryptozoologists...claim that whenever a new animal species is discovered, that this is somehow proof for the existence of monsters...show me your bigfoot, your nessie, show me the monsters. Of course, they can't, because they do not exist...funds are being wasted that could be put to better use in actual animal conservation...'' James Randi, 'Strange Universe' television series, Tribune Media, 1997. Whatever other statements he may have made in support of, or opposition to, the subject, this sounds a great deal like ridicule to me.

Thank you. Sorry for being so grumpy.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you. Sorry for being so grumpy.

*mmmmwahhh* But it's so cute!

 

[blakta2]

wow! It has been a while since I've been able to visit my favorite site. I'm so glad I've come back! No wonder I felt like something was missing. I won't ever stray again!

 

[RealPaZZa]

Just heard this from my ex-wife: The house is again empty, no for sale or for rent sign, just empty. Probably means nothing, but maybe theres a reason?

 

[ignatiusII]

My family used to live next door to a supposedly haunted house when I was a kid. The house stayed vacant for the entire 3 - 4 year period we lived next to it. As I come from a fairly large family, I almost always had to share a bed with one of my brothers and we would spend most nights telling ghost stories and generally trying to creep each other out. As we lived in such close proximity to 'the spook house' ( the entire structure was surrounded by brick walls about six feet high, thus ensuring that we would never see anything, even if something paranormal might be going on over there ), one subject that invariably came up during our round-table midnight discussions on the supernatural was whether anything was going-on inside the abandoned house next door. In other words, do ghosts go about their ghostly routines even if there is nobody around to witness, or do they 'perform' for the living? Any thoughts?

 

[stu neville]

Well, that comes back to the nature of ghosts once again - if there are scores of potential causes (which I personally believe there probably are), then if the ghost(s) in a given case were "stone-taped" or electro-magnetic in nature then there's no reason why they wouldn't manifest independent of a human observer: however, if they were a psychic projection, say, and needed an organic catalyst to manifest, then no observer would mean no observable phenomena.

That's just my opinion though .

 

[RealPaZZa]

I dont believe it is a ghost (in the normal terms of a ghost [dead person etc.]) though, its a "thing"

 

[razorblimp]

I don't believe in 'ghosts' as spirits of the dead either, but it's possible a Tulpas/Tulku/Egregore/Phantasm (delete or change as applicable) was created unknowingly, and it can amount to pretty much the same thing as what people traditionally believe as ghosts or poltergeists.

 

[Anonymous]

Quite an interesting story, and one which deserves a little more study.

Couple of thoughts.

Frank and his mental exercises: To develop some form of ability sufficient to slam doors, Frank must have had some exceptional latent talents. To create a Tulpa to do this would also have taken a natural talent towards these things. Also, Tulpas require focus and belief - something that Frank would have been actively and conciously involved in. I don't consider it likely or perhaps even possible to accidently summon your own Tulpa (assuming it's possible at all!)

THinking about polts and all the research surrounding them, it is often noted that they centre around a person. I wonder if Frank was the centre - perhaps just more susceptable to it than anyone else at the time.

You mentioned that your grandparents are Catholic. In my experience (and I'm dealing in broad terms here - I'm not wishing to upset anyone and I apologise if I do) many Catholics do not wish to get mixed up in any thing perceived as demonic or otherwise outside the of the 'normal mainstream' aspects of the religion.

Yes, Catholicism has a history of exorcism and fighting evil in a very hands on way - and many Catholics do not shy away from a degree of belief in such things. However, many Christians don't like to get involved in opening these doors. I wonder if your grand parents simply didn't want to get involved with the darker side of their religion.

I'm fascinated by the report of the loud noise which even brought your neighbours to the house. This is a little exceptional compared to many hauntings.

There are so many aspects to this tale that would kind of support my personal feelings that these things kind of feed off belief. The more belief you have in something, the easier it is to experience. I'm not suggesting that they are purely manifestations of something from within us, but that perhaps a strong belief, even fear, of such a presence serves to strengthen the experience of it.

I'd love to learn more of the history of the house.

 

[berengaria1]

When I was younger, my family lived in a biggish, old house in the country. The people who lived there before us were a bit weird (to say the least) and, when the wife had a stillbirth, they buried the baby in the rose garden. Don't know how/if they actually got permission but, being such a bunch of weirdos, I suspect not. I never particularly liked being on my own in the house, but I never experienced anything odd - it was just a spooky house.
My mum, however, only told us after we'd left that she hated being on her own there and there was "something" there. She doesn't really like speaking about it. My brother and I used to tease our younger sister about the dead baby, which really freaked her out since our bedroom windows overlooked the rose bed. Mind you, the thing that really gave her nightmares was the cupboard door in her room. It was just after the Moorgate Station disaster and she had a nightmare that the door was the entrance to the tunnel at the station and would go absolutely mental if Mark and I mentioned it (being nasty teenagers we used to wind her up something rotten). Even to this day, she will not speak about it - 30 years later! Aah... c:likee:
My mum has some spooky stories about her family - I'll write them when I get chance.

 

[DanielShekinah]

To get all psychological for a moment, I'm curious about the family history here - the fear, the anxiety and silences, the knowing looks between the adults, which are having a deep impact on the children involved...

Perhaps there are family secrets here which aren't being directly expressed, but which children pick up on, and then translate into terms that approximate a haunting? (i.e. if you pick up anxiety, it makes sense to presume there must be a 'ghost' in the house that explains that anxiety.)

Uncle Frank sounds like a bit of a black sheep. Who were these 'friends' of his? How can an uncle just vanish from view and no one know what happened to him? Where did he go and why? Also - the wardrobe that the parents won't open in front of the children might've contained sexual or personal secrets, rather than anything supernatural... You see where I'm going with this...?

It's not my intention to denigrate anyone's family in any way. But maybe part of what's happening here originates in anxieties and tensions common to any family. Maybe the way to exorcise this ghost would be to do some serious research into the family history...

Duncan.

 

[Anonymous]

Bizzarre haunting

Hi there

I think Muppetgrrl has hit the nail on the head when she says your relative may have created a tulpa.

The physical effects, such as slamming doors, and having an almost physical presence which your father needed to step aside for sound very tulpa-esque. If your uncle used to concentrate to achieve the door slamming, he may, through his determination and will - plus a bit of luck (whether good or bad I leave to you) may have brought a tulpa into being.

As the Buddhists say, 'with our thoughts we create the world anew'.

...And tulpas can become detatched from their master and operate on their own.

As to the pushing of your Grandmother, I wonder if it was trying to communicate with her and this is the only way it had of making contact; especially as it summoned help after she fell over.

Pearl Knight

 

[RealPaZZa]

There are so many aspects to this tale that would kind of support my personal feelings that these things kind of feed off belief. The more belief you have in something, the easier it is to experience. I'm not suggesting that they are purely manifestations of something from within us, but that perhaps a strong belief, even fear, of such a presence serves to strengthen the experience of it.

Youve set me thinking here - The loud noise on the stairs happened when there where 4 adults (all catholics and all had personal experiance of the thing in the house) and a small child in the house, perhaps whatever it was fed off their energy? I think I still believe in my own theory that the stairs noise was whatever was upstairs managing to come downstairs though.

 

[RealPaZZa]

Perhaps there are family secrets here which aren't being directly expressed, but which children pick up on, and then translate into terms that approximate a haunting? (i.e. if you pick up anxiety, it makes sense to presume there must be a 'ghost' in the house that explains that anxiety.)

As far as i know there are no "family secrets" that I dont know (in fact none at all) and now I have no way of finding out if there are any.

Uncle Frank sounds like a bit of a black sheep. Who were these 'friends' of his? How can an uncle just vanish from view and no one know what happened to him? Where did he go and why? Also - the wardrobe that the parents won't open in front of the children might've contained sexual or personal secrets, rather than anything supernatural... You see where I'm going with this...?

A black sheep? maybe. i have found a photograph of him (along with some of his artwork), he looks rather effeminate (as dicussed earlier), definatly not a tough guy type. Im not sure what happened to frank, mum doesnt know and there is noone else alive that knew him to ask, personally i think he just moved on, met someone and set up a new life (or perhaps died prematurely), probably nothing fortean about it. Reasons for not opening the Warderobe cupboard? Well yours is an original idea, but they could have opened it with my brother and myself in another room, personally i get your idea, but i think its not the answer, good thought though.

It's not my intention to denigrate anyone's family in any way. But maybe part of what's happening here originates in anxieties and tensions common to any family. Maybe the way to exorcise this ghost would be to do some serious research into the family history...

Im not one for family history, im not interested in the relations that "come out of the woodwork" for a free feed at births, deaths and christenings. Your idea may help solve it, but if I go back 2 generations im in Belgium and the family surname is as common as "smith" is in the UK, so a lot of work I expect, id find it very very very dull. But again its another thought though!

A few interesting and thought prevoking ideas here.

 

[RealPaZZa]

Re: Bizzarre haunting

I think Muppetgrrl has hit the nail on the head when she says your relative may have created a tulpa.

I do think Frank either created it or somehow captured it.

...And tulpas can become detatched from their master and operate on their own.

Again i agree with thsi idea, frank left, it couldnt (or didnt) follow him.

As to the pushing of your Grandmother, I wonder if it was trying to communicate with her and this is the only way it had of making contact; especially as it summoned help after she fell over.

I understand what you mean, my wifes daughter is severly autistic and has downs syndrome, she has serious problems communicating with us, so communicates in a way she understands. She will pull long hair, which although we consider anti-social, its her way to attract attention. If she gets excited you may get slapped too. For someone or something that doesnt know or doesnt understand how to attract attention in the way we consider normal, they can resort in behaviour we consider strange and anti-social.

 

[RealPaZZa]

I'd love to learn more of the history of the house.

I dont know what happened since it was sold, except for being sold again and now empty. It would be very unfair of me to publish the street address and number in this forum, its VERY unfair to whoever lives there next to be bothered by wannabee ghost hunters, letters etc. Im sure everyone understands.

After reading this, my son has done some serious google searching about the house and previous and future (to my story) tennents, he hasent found anything to speak of, although he does know someone who lives a few doors down from the house, he discussed the case with them and they thought he was making it up (thinking this is probably for the best, very unfair if it gets back to whoever lives there in the future.) I dont believe its fair to frighten anyone, also their fears may be all it needs for things to start again.

 

[RainyOcean]

Could someone tell me what a "tulpa" is please? I looked it up in the dictionary, but it wasn't there. Anyway, I could be wrong, as I don't know what it is, but it sounds a bit like what I was talking about on the first page.