All Off The Fence: What Are UFOs?

[Timble2]

JUK, your ideas seem a bit like those of Professor Frank Tipler, who in his book "The Physics of Immortality" proposes that at the end of the universe highly evolved entities effectively become gods and with the amount of processing power at their disposal are able to reconstruct everyone who ever lived in a sort of virtual reality afterlife.

Frank Tiplers website

Here's a brief summary of the theory ]Source

The Omega Point Theory of Frank J. Tipler
Frank J. Tipler has proposed that it is possible for intelligent beings to process and store an infinite amount of information in the universe, if certain conditions are fulfilled. His definition of the Omega Point is essentially a future c-boundary which is a single point and an Aleph state, where

1.Information processing continues indefinitely along at least one world-line gamma all the way to the future c-boundary of the universe.
i.e. Life never dies out.

2.The amount of information processed between now and the future c-boundary is infinite in the region of space-time with which the worldline gamma can communicate. i.e. There will be an infinite number of thoughts, experiences and events.

3.The amount of information stored at any given time tau within this region diverges to infinity as tau approaches its future limit. i.e. More and more is learned, and things never repeat themselves.

What has made his theory controversial is his claims that it is experimentally verifiable, that the beings near the Omega Point will resurrect anybody who has ever lived into a state close to classical descriptions of Paradise and that the Omega Point itself corresponds to the religious notation of god.

Prof Tipler also worked out the physics of building one type of Time Machine. There are slight technical problems such as getting hold of 10 solar masses worth of material and spinning neutron stars.

Time Trip - questions and answers

Professor Frank Tipler
In 1974, Professor Frank Tipler suggested that you could use an incredibly dense, spinning cylinder that was about 100 km long and 10 km wide. The cylinder would have to be incredibly strong and rigid so that it didn’t get squashed by its own gravity and so that it didn’t get torn apart by the centrifugal forces it would experience when spinning. Tipler pointed out these were 'just' practical problems which might be overcome by sufficiently advanced technology.

To use a Tipler Time Machine, you would leave Earth in a spaceship and travel to where the cylinder was spinning in space. When you were close enough to the cylinder, where the space-time is most warped, you would orbit around it a few times and then fly back to Earth, arriving back in the past. How far back in the past would depend on how many times you went round the cylinder. During your journey, your watch would always work as normal, going forward.

Tipler's work suggested that this could be done using a spinning black hole or neutron star. There are pulsars that have been observed which are spinning at a rate fast enough. However, the mathematics is not really conclusive as to whether such stars could be used for time travel or whether we would need to pile up a few of them on top of each other to form a cylinder.

Tipler's ideas are higly speculative and probably on the border of tipping from science into metaphysics or science fiction.
Needless to say a lot of people don't agree with him.

*Edit* Wrote this while JUK was posting, possibly rather different scenarios.

 

[Anonymous]

JUK, your ideas seem a bit like those of Professor Frank Tipler, who in his book "The Physics of Immortality" proposes that at the end of the universe highly evolved entities effectively become gods and with the amount of processing power at their disposal are able to reconstruct everyone who ever lived in a sort of virtual reality afterlife.

Frank Tiplers website

Here's a brief summary of the theory ]Source

The Omega Point Theory of Frank J. Tipler
Frank J. Tipler has proposed that it is possible for intelligent beings to process and store an infinite amount of information in the universe, if certain conditions are fulfilled. His definition of the Omega Point is essentially a future c-boundary which is a single point and an Aleph state, where

1.Information processing continues indefinitely along at least one world-line gamma all the way to the future c-boundary of the universe.
i.e. Life never dies out.

2.The amount of information processed between now and the future c-boundary is infinite in the region of space-time with which the worldline gamma can communicate. i.e. There will be an infinite number of thoughts, experiences and events.

3.The amount of information stored at any given time tau within this region diverges to infinity as tau approaches its future limit. i.e. More and more is learned, and things never repeat themselves.

What has made his theory controversial is his claims that it is experimentally verifiable, that the beings near the Omega Point will resurrect anybody who has ever lived into a state close to classical descriptions of Paradise and that the Omega Point itself corresponds to the religious notation of god.

Prof Tipler also worked out the physics of building one type of Time Machine. There are slight technical problems such as getting hold of 10 solar masses worth of material and spinning neutron stars.

Time Trip - questions and answers

Professor Frank Tipler
In 1974, Professor Frank Tipler suggested that you could use an incredibly dense, spinning cylinder that was about 100 km long and 10 km wide. The cylinder would have to be incredibly strong and rigid so that it didn’t get squashed by its own gravity and so that it didn’t get torn apart by the centrifugal forces it would experience when spinning. Tipler pointed out these were 'just' practical problems which might be overcome by sufficiently advanced technology.

To use a Tipler Time Machine, you would leave Earth in a spaceship and travel to where the cylinder was spinning in space. When you were close enough to the cylinder, where the space-time is most warped, you would orbit around it a few times and then fly back to Earth, arriving back in the past. How far back in the past would depend on how many times you went round the cylinder. During your journey, your watch would always work as normal, going forward.

Tipler's work suggested that this could be done using a spinning black hole or neutron star. There are pulsars that have been observed which are spinning at a rate fast enough. However, the mathematics is not really conclusive as to whether such stars could be used for time travel or whether we would need to pile up a few of them on top of each other to form a cylinder.

Tipler's ideas are higly speculative and probably on the border of tipping from science into metaphysics or science fiction.
Needless to say a lot of people don't agree with him.

*Edit* Wrote this while JUK was posting, possibly rather different scenarios.

Thank you for the qoutes, they were very interesting to me, and I shall look further into Tipler ideas.

I will be honest, I am not too aware of his proposals, however I must say I have am in union with some of them.

It IS/WAS through the use of blackhole technology that mankind will conquer has conquered Time. Cygnus X-1, a spinning blackhole ?
Perhaps then we should find a quick way of getting to the neck of the swan.



Through the conquering of Time, the great resurrection of mankind will take place.
Man will live eternally in an infinite universe.

With the use of Timetravel mankind will become so technologically advanced that nothing will be impossible.

Man will become God. Man IS God. God does exist, it is we.

Even the scriptures record that God made Man in 'their own' image'
If God (the masters of Time) made Man in their Image, then God (the masters of Time) must be men/human.

Please let me add, altough I list everything as 'fact', it is only in my opinion, my belief, my knowledge.
I don't wish to upset anyone. We all have our beliefs.



Maybe Tipler has been through what I have been through.

I was going to try and get a manuscript published myself and still toy with the idea. That's why I wanted to get in touch with Jenny Randles, get her to help. Can't make my mind up, though................... Always been my nemesis.

Cheers

 

[Anonymous]

They are going to clone me and put me back in my own body? Sod that; can I have someone elses?

I know; Will Smith! Can you put me in a clone of him?

(actually I know all about Tipler's ideas, and they are unlikely to be correct, because of
1/ the accelerating expansion of the universe
and
2/ entropy;

so no timetravelling immortality in this universe- sorry.)

 

[Lurcio]

I think they walk among us. Sorry to interupt .

 

[Anonymous]

Walking among us is a sensible strategy; flying around above us with their lights on is not such a clever idea.

If a highly advanced civilisation were to discover a less advanced civilisation on a planet somewhere in the backwaters of an ordinary galaxy like ours, the high tech civilisation could observe the planet from outside without being detected, and use stealth technology, biotech and nanotech toproduce observer devices which would blend inwith the local ecology. Advanced tech observation devices could be disguised as rocks, trees, people, even soil.

On the other hand flying around in attention grabbing craft blazing with light would make covert observation difficult.

 

[rynner2]

Advanced tech observation devices could be disguised as rocks, trees, people, even soil.

On the other hand flying around in attention grabbing craft blazing with light would make covert observation difficult.

But perhaps they want to watch (with their rocks, trees, people, even soil) what our reactions are to their attention grabbing craft blazing with light!

(And perhaps they are amazed that on the whole we don't appear to take them too seriously...)

 

[Anonymous]

That could be called the Anthropological Experiment hypothesis, to go with the other hypotheses I suggested on this page earlier in this thread.

If true, this would tend to suggest that the various governments of the world have not had covert contact with the extraterrestrials (if they exist);
I can't imagine the governments consenting to such a demeaning series of behavioural experiments. Some people are severely affected and disturbed by UFO experiences, and become obsessed by them; this has been occuring for more than fifty years, and many witnesses have gone to their grave in a state of confusion.
If the aliens are experimenting on us in this way, it seems to display a callous and ignorant attitude on their behalf.

 

[rynner2]

If the aliens are experimenting on us in this way, it seems to display a callous and ignorant attitude on their behalf.

Well, we have no reason to believe aliens are kindly disposed towards us. They may merely regard us as lab animals. They are aliens, after all, and we should not expect them to follow our ideas of morality.

Alien also has the meaning of 'frightening', since most people are afraid of the unknown. Some people may like to see aliens as guardian angels come to save us, but that could just be wishful thinking.


Be afraid, be very afraid!

 

[Anonymous]

They are going to clone me and put me back in my own body? Sod that; can I have someone elses?

I know; Will Smith! Can you put me in a clone of him?

(actually I know all about Tipler's ideas, and they are unlikely to be correct, because of
1/ the accelerating expansion of the universe
and
2/ entropy;

so no timetravelling immortality in this universe- sorry.)

Hi Eburacum45

Unlikely as landing on the moon once was?

1/ Would that be Hawkins' 'bounded universe' or beyond?

2/ Entropy is merely a guage to measure dispersed energy.

I respect your opinion.

I don't know about you having Will Smiths body.........but what would Will Smith do?

 

[Anonymous]

I think they walk among us. Sorry to interupt .

Hi Lurcio

Yes, you are correct, they do walk among us.

Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

Walking among us is a sensible strategy; flying around above us with their lights on is not such a clever idea.

If a highly advanced civilisation were to discover a less advanced civilisation on a planet somewhere in the backwaters of an ordinary galaxy like ours, the high tech civilisation could observe the planet from outside without being detected, and use stealth technology, biotech and nanotech toproduce observer devices which would blend inwith the local ecology. Advanced tech observation devices could be disguised as rocks, trees, people, even soil.

On the other hand flying around in attention grabbing craft blazing with light would make covert observation difficult.

Yes, that is a mystery. But what if they WANT to be seen flying through the air? What if the lights are part of the maneuvering operation. What if fulfillment requires this aspect? What if they are some form of beacons?
What if........? Yes a mystery, but not beyond explanation.

Yes, it is hardly a covert observation. But they want us to know that they are here and always have wanted pre-timetravel mankind to know they are here..........and who's to say that they CAN'T disguise themselves as trees, soil and the like? And why use present day technology when they have all the future technology at hand to employ?

Would anyone prefer to watch black and white television to coloured television?

I note your points, and they are good ones.

 

[Anonymous]

Advanced tech observation devices could be disguised as rocks, trees, people, even soil.

On the other hand flying around in attention grabbing craft blazing with light would make covert observation difficult.

But perhaps they want to watch (with their rocks, trees, people, even soil) what our reactions are to their attention grabbing craft blazing with light!

(And perhaps they are amazed that on the whole we don't appear to take them too seriously...)

Good point.

 

[Anonymous]

That could be called the Anthropological Experiment hypothesis, to go with the other hypotheses I suggested on this page earlier in this thread.

If true, this would tend to suggest that the various governments of the world have not had covert contact with the extraterrestrials (if they exist);
I can't imagine the governments consenting to such a demeaning series of behavioural experiments. Some people are severely affected and disturbed by UFO experiences, and become obsessed by them; this has been occuring for more than fifty years, and many witnesses have gone to their grave in a state of confusion.
If the aliens are experimenting on us in this way, it seems to display a callous and ignorant attitude on their behalf.

They are not aliens.

 

[stu neville]

Well, the ones with whom you believe you have had contact may not be aliens, but who's to say they are the sole group?

Theoretically, there could be a huge spectrum of visitors, temporal or alien. Each case on it's own merits .

 

[wembley8]

"Man will become God. Man IS God. God does exist, it is we. "

Yes, this idea has been around a while. I forget what the principle is called; it's certainly part of the Hindu religion and arguably Buddhism.

"What if they are some form of beacons?"

What if they aren't? As a theory, what evidence would support/undermine this. Yes, the things in the sky might be an experiment to see how we react. But then so could wandering pink elephants, missing socks from the tumble dryer and half of Channel 5's output. It's a vey unhelpful theory, unless you can think of anything that might prove/disprove it.

And I wouldn't try time travel through a normal back hole as it will rip you apart and may not connect with the past. You need one made of stange matter, that is big enough and spinning in exactly the right way. Kinda tricky.

 

[Anonymous]

...and of course...black holes are only theoretical anyway. Worm holes are the substance of imagination.
The whole theory of blackholes however...suggests that nothing would survive entry into them, not even photons.
If aliens, or whatever...existed and were capable of resurrection and cloning...they would pretty much have also the knack to not need it. If they wanted to replace our physical bodies, why would...Oh dear, I'd best not go into that...this thread would go on and on and on and on and it's already gone on a tangent.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, the ones with whom you believe you have had contact may not be aliens, but who's to say they are the sole group?

Theoretically, there could be a huge spectrum of visitors, temporal or alien. Each case on it's own merits .

Yes, I quite agree with you. There are aliens too. I Hate to use the expression, but it is a sort of 'federation'.

 

[Anonymous]

"Man will become God. Man IS God. God does exist, it is we. "

Yes, this idea has been around a while. I forget what the principle is called; it's certainly part of the Hindu religion and arguably Buddhism.

"What if they are some form of beacons?"

What if they aren't? As a theory, what evidence would support/undermine this. Yes, the things in the sky might be an experiment to see how we react. But then so could wandering pink elephants, missing socks from the tumble dryer and half of Channel 5's output. It's a vey unhelpful theory, unless you can think of anything that might prove/disprove it.

And I wouldn't try time travel through a normal back hole as it will rip you apart and may not connect with the past. You need one made of stange matter, that is big enough and spinning in exactly the right way. Kinda tricky.

I didn't say it was a theory, I just suggested *reasons* as to why UFOs emit light/s.
To date, I havn't seen any wandering pink elephants, but have found the odd missing sock.

Neither would I try timetravel through a normal blackhole.
Yes we need something 'stranger'. And through science, we will achieve it.

 

[Anonymous]

...and of course...black holes are only theoretical anyway. Worm holes are the substance of imagination.
The whole theory of blackholes however...suggests that nothing would survive entry into them, not even photons.
If aliens, or whatever...existed and were capable of resurrection and cloning...they would pretty much have also the knack to not need it. If they wanted to replace our physical bodies, why would...Oh dear, I'd best not go into that...this thread would go on and on and on and on and it's already gone on a tangent.

Blackholes are theory based on scientific facts.

Wormholes; Schwarzchild geometer consists of a blackhole and a whitehole connected by a wormhole. Generally understood as the Einstein-Rosen bridge.

Photons of light cannot escape the blackhole gravitational pull. Nothing can escape it once it has passed the event horizon.

The resurrection will take place/has taken place in an instant. Everything must be fulfilled. They HAVE used technology far beyond what we understand.
They collect DNA as that is the only substance that can duplicate a biological entity in the 'truest' way.
This is the way it was begun, and that is the way they must follow.

If you think this thread has already 'gone on a tangent' why are you fueling it?

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Eburacum45

Unlikely as landing on the moon once was?

1/ Would that be Hawkins' 'bounded universe' or beyond?

2/ Entropy is merely a guage to measure dispersed energy.

I respect your opinion.

Tipler was talking about a universe which was expected to collapse upon itself; since he wrote his Omega Point Theory cosmology has moved on somewhat.
The universe is now thought to expand forever, and to accelerate in that expansion for the foreseeable future.

Anders Sandberg (coincidentally one of the founders of Orion's Arm) wrote this critique, which shows that the Omega Point concept probably would not work even in a collapsing universe;
http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Global/Omega/tipler_page.html

What will happen according to modern theories is an eternal expansion until every particle is isolated within its own event horizon; not much hope of scientific ressurection there.

 

[RainyOcean]

I'm posting because the website says I'm watching this topic, however I have not gotten any e-mail notifications about it. I'm hoping that posting will fix this.

 

[stu neville]

Well, the ones with whom you believe you have had contact may not be aliens, but who's to say they are the sole group?

Theoretically, there could be a huge spectrum of visitors, temporal or alien. Each case on it's own merits .

Yes, I quite agree with you. There are aliens too. I Hate to use the expression, but it is a sort of 'federation'.

Hang on though - isn't this at odds with the post you made earlier in this thread, here, wherein you said:

I have formed my opinion from years of painstaking research into the UFO phenomenon, and its related pehenomena.

One reason I will give is the fact that UFOs have been visiting the Earth since remote times. There can be no real conceivable reason why any extraterrestrial race would want to do that. They would have attacked millenia ago, or they would have made themselves known by now.

I believe we are deliberately deluded into accepting the mainstream UFO representation that they are 'alien craft from outer space'.

I am convinced by all my findings and by personel experience that UFOs
illustrate a timetravel phenomenon, and which the world is fastly approaching the reality of.

This is the greatest secret of all time.

So, are you contending that time travel is the sole explanation for UFO phenomena, or are you saying that in part it could be down to aliens as well (taking secret military craft etc as read)?

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Eburacum45

Unlikely as landing on the moon once was?

1/ Would that be Hawkins' 'bounded universe' or beyond?

2/ Entropy is merely a guage to measure dispersed energy.

I respect your opinion.

Tipler was talking about a universe which was expected to collapse upon itself; since he wrote his Omega Point Theory cosmology has moved on somewhat.
The universe is now thought to expand forever, and to accelerate in that expansion for the foreseeable future.

Anders Sandberg (coincidentally one of the founders of Orion's Arm) wrote this critique, which shows that the Omega Point concept probably would not work even in a collapsing universe;
http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Global/Omega/tipler_page.html

What will happen according to modern theories is an eternal expansion until every particle is isolated within its own event horizon; not much hope of scientific ressurection there.

 

[Anonymous]

TEST

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Eburacum45

Unlikely as landing on the moon once was?

1/ Would that be Hawkins' 'bounded universe' or beyond?

2/ Entropy is merely a guage to measure dispersed energy.

I respect your opinion.

Tipler was talking about a universe which was expected to collapse upon itself; since he wrote his Omega Point Theory cosmology has moved on somewhat.
The universe is now thought to expand forever, and to accelerate in that expansion for the foreseeable future.

Anders Sandberg (coincidentally one of the founders of Orion's Arm) wrote this critique, which shows that the Omega Point concept probably would not work even in a collapsing universe;
http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Global/Omega/tipler_page.html

What will happen according to modern theories is an eternal expansion until every particle is isolated within its own event horizon; not much hope of scientific ressurection there.

Yes there is, even if these theories were correct.



Science can only guess what lies, and how much matter exists beyond the bounded universe. What matter is being created?
The true universe stretches to infinity. What may lie inside that infinity, beyond our bounded universe, is entirely unknown, and therefore it cannot be said with any conviction that resurrection and eternal life can be ruled out.
Our expanding bounded universe is a result of the so called 'Big Bang' theory, which was the begining of the bounded universe.
How many other 'Big Bangs' are taking place right now? How many other ways is matter being created? All in the eternity of space.

What may seem a bit of a stumbling block right now, may not be later on, as human history has always proved. Perhaps we DO live in an oscillating universe.

I wouldn't be too quick to rule out the resurrection and eternal life based on some scientific theoretical arguments, which is all they are. Tomorrow, someone will come along with either a new idea on the subject or a spanner to put in the spokes of someone elses.

And most important of all, you are missing a very important point here,
as we are talking about 'Timetravel', with the ability to travel through time,
how can the universe possibly end?

 

[Anonymous]

Well, the ones with whom you believe you have had contact may not be aliens, but who's to say they are the sole group?

Theoretically, there could be a huge spectrum of visitors, temporal or alien. Each case on it's own merits .

Yes, I quite agree with you. There are aliens too. I Hate to use the expression, but it is a sort of 'federation'.

Hang on though - isn't this at odds with the post you made earlier in this thread, here, wherein you said:

I have formed my opinion from years of painstaking research into the UFO phenomenon, and its related pehenomena.

One reason I will give is the fact that UFOs have been visiting the Earth since remote times. There can be no real conceivable reason why any extraterrestrial race would want to do that. They would have attacked millenia ago, or they would have made themselves known by now.

I believe we are deliberately deluded into accepting the mainstream UFO representation that they are 'alien craft from outer space'.

I am convinced by all my findings and by personel experience that UFOs
illustrate a timetravel phenomenon, and which the world is fastly approaching the reality of.

This is the greatest secret of all time.

So, are you contending that time travel is the sole explanation for UFO phenomena, or are you saying that in part it could be down to aliens as well (taking secret military craft etc as read)?

Yes, in my opinion, timetravel is the sole explanation for the UFO phenomenon.
I am also saying that the 'human' timetravellers visiting us belong to a 'federation' of timetravellers which includes intelligent lifeforms from other worlds, and who have/or may have realized timetravel themselves.
When Mankind realized timetrave (as it has already really happened, yet not happened yet) , he was met by this 'federation'.

When human timetravellers visit our time they sometimes bring other entity's with them, and it works vice versa also. They also have artificialy created biological robots.

The reason why we have not been invaded by aliens from outer space is because they are prevented from doing so.

It's a somewhat complicated affair.

Hope that answers your questions.

 

[Anonymous]

It's a somewhat complicated affair.

....something of an understatement, I'd say.

Merlin

 

[Anonymous]

Is it just me, or is this sounding somewhat *although intensley more intellectually* like a kathaksung type affair?
*See very very earlier threads by this individual*. Not saying the two are the same, but the thread is going that way.

 

[Anonymous]

And most important of all, you are missing a very important point here,
as we are talking about 'Timetravel', with the ability to travel through time,
how can the universe possibly end?

Ah; now I can help you there;
my own essay 'how time travel would destroy the universe' is a slightly tongue-in-cheek way of describing the instability of a universe without causailty (apologies for spelling)
http://www.orionsarm.com/intro/WhyNoTimeTravel.html


This essay does not consider the Novikov self-consistency hypothesis; in that concept of time travel you can only go back into the past to perform actions which have already occurred; this removes the possibility of paradox but means you can't change history.

To me that is a particularly boring and useless form of time travel, but you might find a use for it.

 

[Timble2]

Just flagging up this which I posted in New Science, that makes it look as if Time Travel might be more difficut than previously, or subsequently thought.


Wormholes no use for Time Travel?