All Off The Fence: What Are UFOs?

[Anonymous]

Just flagging up this which I posted in New Science, that makes it look as if Time Travel might be more difficut than previously, or subsequently thought.


Wormholes no use for Time Travel?

Thanks for that, Timble, it was very interesting.

Difficult, perhaps (I mean what's easy?), but not beyond the bounds of possibility.

My money is on blackhole technology, blackhole-whitehole with the Einstein-Rosen bridge.
This is how I believe timetravel will be attained.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't understand the concept of time travel.
A tree was growing in 1978 and is till in the same place today, albeit larger and some changes have been made both naturally and through man to the local environs. But..when it was growing in 1977...it hasn't moved, neither has the location. All that has changed is the age of the tree etc and the changes to the landscape. It's not in a different place. time has moved on..but time is just an abstract passage of measurement and unlike feet and inches etc...it doesn't exist outside the mind/memory.
So how can one travel through memories physically. I've read an abundance of books and articles on the subject, but it's all pure theory and cosmetically bridged with a patchwork of convenient ideas, (Exotic matter, dark matter, worm holes,black holes,treating the Universe as a 2 dimensional example etc...) rather like talking of future technology and saying, "In 300 years, mankind will have evolved and will be making trips on a regular basis to distant galaxies using free energy and interdimensional space-craft..."
Aye, OK then mate....
I'm not scoffing, and I don't listen to the "They scoffed at the idea of the telephone..etc" Because all those inventions/discoveries were ideas which had just been improved and already were known about. They didn't flout any known laws. I don't believe in 'Anti-Gravity' I do well believe there will be an invention or discovery which will overcome the effects of gravity by using more energy than it can create. But then...that's me.
So, no, I don't understand the concept of time travel. Not in its common sense.

 

[rynner2]

..but time is just an abstract passage of measurement and unlike feet and inches etc...it doesn't exist outside the mind/memory.
So how can one travel through memories physically.

...

So, no, I don't understand the concept of time travel. Not in its common sense.

First point: Time does seem to have some existence outside of our memories. It is treated as a dimension (like feet and inches) in many, many scientific equations, most notably in things like the laws of motion, which don't have any particular connection with memory. The ability to predict trajectories and orbits shows that time as a dimension does have some connection with the real world.

Point 2: I don't understand the concept of time travel either. What bloody good is it if it just screws up reality and creates paradoxes?! What purpose could it achieve if you can't actually do anything?

However, I see nothing ridiculous about the idea of past time viewing -
I can conceive of a TV like device that could be 'tuned' to any past time or place, and let us observe (without altering anything) what went on then.

(But such a device could not be used to view the future, or we raise the possibility of paradox creation again.)

All this assumes that space-time is fixed and immutable. But as I suggested elsewhere, this may not mesh with the 'many-worlds' interpretation of quantum physics, which is infinitely more complex.
If Many-Worlds holds true in some form, then even a time viewer may give contradictory results, showing one version of history on one visit, and another version on the next.

(In fact, Many-Worlds holds so many possibilities that most of the alternatives we would see would be completely unrecognizable and thus incomprehensible. The machine might in practical terms prove to be useless!)

 

[Anonymous]

I don't understand the concept of time travel.
A tree was growing in 1978 and is till in the same place today, albeit larger and some changes have been made both naturally and through man to the local environs. But..when it was growing in 1977...it hasn't moved, neither has the location. All that has changed is the age of the tree etc and the changes to the landscape. It's not in a different place. time has moved on..but time is just an abstract passage of measurement and unlike feet and inches etc...it doesn't exist outside the mind/memory.
So how can one travel through memories physically. I've read an abundance of books and articles on the subject, but it's all pure theory and cosmetically bridged with a patchwork of convenient ideas, (Exotic matter, dark matter, worm holes,black holes,treating the Universe as a 2 dimensional example etc...) rather like talking of future technology and saying, "In 300 years, mankind will have evolved and will be making trips on a regular basis to distant galaxies using free energy and interdimensional space-craft..."
Aye, OK then mate....
I'm not scoffing, and I don't listen to the "They scoffed at the idea of the telephone..etc" Because all those inventions/discoveries were ideas which had just been improved and already were known about. They didn't flout any known laws. I don't believe in 'Anti-Gravity' I do well believe there will be an invention or discovery which will overcome the effects of gravity by using more energy than it can create. But then...that's me.
So, no, I don't understand the concept of time travel. Not in its common sense.

I'm not too sure that trees timetravel.

If Time is just an abstract passage of measurement and doesn't exist outside the mind/memory, why does it take an object a length of Time to move from point A to point B?

Perhaps timetravel will not flout any known laws, either. Perhaps it will be a gradual thing.

Are not radio waves a thing to wonder at? Pictures travelling through the air unseen, travelling all throughout space. How could this have been explained to some one in the middle ages?

I think it all comes down to understanding what Time is.

 

[Anonymous]

Moving from point A to point B isn't moving through time. It's moving through surface/air liquid etc...distance. It takes a certain ammount of time to do, but you aren't travelling through it.
Radio waves aren't pictures travelling through the air either. They're just scrambled representations of items which are reassembled at the point of receiver. Using radio waves because of their specific nature at certain wavelengths or frequencies. Radio waves have been apparant for thousands of years to mankind...in the form of light, anyway, (Waves and particles). But I do see your point there.
Although I do appreciate your reasoning and you are being intelligent about it.
The tree example would have worked as well using a human, but humans don't usually stay put for long...hehehe.

I see time as simply a progression of events taking place incrementally to our measuring of endurance. We perceive time differently under certain circumstances and I think that is because time is relevent to the subject.
If we could use a powerful telescope to look at a clock face a few thousand miles away, and that clock face was set exactly to our local time, then it would be slightly slower due to the length of time it takes for the light to hit our retinas. It doesn't mean that one clock is further back in time than the other. Why do we use the speed of light to illustrate time?
Afterall...it's not timeless without light. I know this may sound naive, but I'm just trying to illustrate a point.
Cheers for listening...(reading). 8)

 

[Anonymous]

..but time is just an abstract passage of measurement and unlike feet and inches etc...it doesn't exist outside the mind/memory.
So how can one travel through memories physically.

...

So, no, I don't understand the concept of time travel. Not in its common sense.

First point: Time does seem to have some existence outside of our memories. It is treated as a dimension (like feet and inches) in many, many scientific equations, most notably in things like the laws of motion, which don't have any particular connection with memory. The ability to predict trajectories and orbits shows that time as a dimension does have some connection with the real world.

Point 2: I don't understand the concept of time travel either. What bloody good is it if it just screws up reality and creates paradoxes?! What purpose could it achieve if you can't actually do anything?

However, I see nothing ridiculous about the idea of past time viewing -
I can conceive of a TV like device that could be 'tuned' to any past time or place, and let us observe (without altering anything) what went on then.

(But such a device could not be used to view the future, or we raise the possibility of paradox creation again.)

All this assumes that space-time is fixed and immutable. But as I suggested elsewhere, this may not mesh with the 'many-worlds' interpretation of quantum physics, which is infinitely more complex.
If Many-Worlds holds true in some form, then even a time viewer may give contradictory results, showing one version of history on one visit, and another version on the next.

(In fact, Many-Worlds holds so many possibilities that most of the alternatives we would see would be completely unrecognizable and thus incomprehensible. The machine might in practical terms prove to be useless!)

I believe that any paradox's will be put in order once timetravel becomes reality (which it already is), and a set of laws will be devised to govern them.

I am of the understanding that the past can be visited and fulfilled, and that
there can be no two versions of this same history.
The timenauts will visit our history (which I call monohistory), and in monohistory nothing at all can be changed, so no paradox's of that nature can exist. If something IS/WAS changed in monohistory, then it becomes part of OUR history (monohistory), and therefore must be fulfilled. Only 'outside' monohistory can things be changed, and have already been changed.
(I am also of the understanding that the future can be visited, too.)

I will give an example using the grandfather paradox.

It is said that a timenaut can not go back to the past to kill his own grandfather, because the change to history might alter the future to the extent that the timenaut would never be born and so therefore could not return through time to kill his grandfather.

Yes he can. And that mysterious death (of the grandfather) would be a part of our history, our monohistory, and it would have to be fulfilled.

It's simple, whatever has happened in history up to the point of timetravel realization day will become the time map of the past (monohistory), a map that cannot be changed, just fulfilled.
The timenauts use a 'ghost' history to make any desired changes, a duel history, a shadow history, that we will only become truly aware of at the point of the great resurrection of mankind. Or if you are fortunate enough to be shown it..........which, too, would be a part of monohistory that would have to be fulfilled.

If you see a timeship (UFO) flying through the sky, it is simply a fulfillment of monohistory. It HAS to fly through that airspace at that time, for if it did not, then a part of monohistory would have gone unfulfilled, and possibly with dire consequences. Any rectification to the monohistory time fault would itself become a part of our monohistory, and require fulfillment................which would also show up on the monohistory time map.

Two histories. Yin and Yang.

 

[Anonymous]

Moving from point A to point B isn't moving through time. It's moving through surface/air liquid etc...distance. It takes a certain ammount of time to do, but you aren't travelling through it.
Radio waves aren't pictures travelling through the air either. They're just scrambled representations of items which are reassembled at the point of receiver. Using radio waves because of their specific nature at certain wavelengths or frequencies. Radio waves have been apparant for thousands of years to mankind...in the form of light, anyway, (Waves and particles). But I do see your point there.
Although I do appreciate your reasoning and you are being intelligent about it.
The tree example would have worked as well using a human, but humans don't usually stay put for long...hehehe.

I see time as simply a progression of events taking place incrementally to our measuring of endurance. We perceive time differently under certain circumstances and I think that is because time is relevent to the subject.
If we could use a powerful telescope to look at a clock face a few thousand miles away, and that clock face was set exactly to our local time, then it would be slightly slower due to the length of time it takes for the light to hit our retinas. It doesn't mean that one clock is further back in time than the other. Why do we use the speed of light to illustrate time?
Afterall...it's not timeless without light. I know this may sound naive, but I'm just trying to illustrate a point.
Cheers for listening...(reading). 8)

I am always willing to listen and learn from another.

Cheers

 

[Timble2]

One of proposed ways round the Grandfather Paradox is that by going back and killing their grandfather, the Time Traveller causes the creation of a divergent timeline, in which they never exist because of the murder of their potential Grandfather by, from the people in that timeline's perspective, a mysterious stranger from the future of a parallel universe.

The many worlds interpretation lets you do this kind of thing conceptually, we don't know if it's practicable.

Whether the Time traveller would then be able to return to their own place in their own timeline, and find that as far as everyone there was concerned nothing had changed, or be stuck in the alternative timeline essentially rootless, is a matter for speculation (and I'm fairly certain the subject of quite a few SF stories)

Essentially, you can visit the past, but any changes you make don't affect your personal history, up to the point that you set out on the journey. You return (if possible) from your trip with knowledge of events that occurred in a divergent universe, not your own past.

As for regulating it all Time Patrol, Time Police or Time Lords?

 

[Anonymous]

I wrote a very complicated and indepth comedy sci fi story about a time traveller in 96 and to get round all the paradoxes, the central character could not do anything that hadn't happened. That was to say...that when he did by chance try to stop an accident which killed his mother in the past, it turned out that he had caused it.
His father, for example...went into the future *as a drunken fool* and made a fortune, but when the central character chanced upon him, his father didn't know him because he had bumped his head and lost his memory after becoming rich. There existed two of his father, one from the present and one from the future future. That is...his father in the future had lived there for a while and had aged, whereas the present one hadn't and neither of them knew anything about them when they met, although the present one put it together because of the resemblance. Knowing of his future, he went ahead and stole the secrets of timetravel from his son to taste it. There in the future...he gained his riches, had a bump to the head and the cycle continues, trapped in a perpetual loop!
WHenever the central *he was called Denise!! OK? lol!* tried to go back again and change things, no matter how many of Denises there were at one time, something stopped them meeting or changing anything, be it having an accident, being held up, or feeling ill etc...this was the Chronological Protection Conjecture before I was aware of it. It's a lot more complex but hilarious too with it. ALiens, Other planets, the meaning of life, loads of shit... but it is unfinished because I couldn't be arsed! lol.
I think there's about 300 A4 sheets of it all.
So, I do appreciate the ins and outs of it, but I just think it's irrational.
*Rolf Harris voice* "Can you tell that he's pissed yit?" :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

My money is on blackhole technology, blackhole-whitehole with the Einstein-Rosen bridge.
This is how I believe timetravel will be attained.

-------------
Actually wormhole theory has moved on considerably from the Einstein-Rosen bridge, which would be almost certainly not traversible.
What is required is a wormhole with no event horizon, which allows passage in both directions, and is held open by exotic energy; all those things are not present in the Einstein-Rosen concept.
It is the stability of exotic energy and matter which Hsu and Buniy are discussing; their verdict- not very.

 

[Anonymous]

I wrote a very complicated and indepth comedy sci fi story about a time traveller in 96 and to get round all the paradoxes, the central character could not do anything that hadn't happened. That was to say...that when he did by chance try to stop an accident which killed his mother in the past, it turned out that he had caused it.
His father, for example...went into the future *as a drunken fool* and made a fortune, but when the central character chanced upon him, his father didn't know him because he had bumped his head and lost his memory after becoming rich. There existed two of his father, one from the present and one from the future future. That is...his father in the future had lived there for a while and had aged, whereas the present one hadn't and neither of them knew anything about them when they met, although the present one put it together because of the resemblance. Knowing of his future, he went ahead and stole the secrets of timetravel from his son to taste it. There in the future...he gained his riches, had a bump to the head and the cycle continues, trapped in a perpetual loop!
WHenever the central *he was called Denise!! OK? lol!* tried to go back again and change things, no matter how many of Denises there were at one time, something stopped them meeting or changing anything, be it having an accident, being held up, or feeling ill etc...this was the Chronological Protection Conjecture before I was aware of it. It's a lot more complex but hilarious too with it. ALiens, Other planets, the meaning of life, loads of shit... but it is unfinished because I couldn't be arsed! lol.
I think there's about 300 A4 sheets of it all.
So, I do appreciate the ins and outs of it, but I just think it's irrational.
*Rolf Harris voice* "Can you tell that he's pissed yit?" :lol:

A very interesting story, a sort of Timetravellers guide to Time.
You should finish it and get it published.

 

[Anonymous]

My money is on blackhole technology, blackhole-whitehole with the Einstein-Rosen bridge.
This is how I believe timetravel will be attained.

-------------
Actually wormhole theory has moved on considerably from the Einstein-Rosen bridge, which would be almost certainly not traversible.
What is required is a wormhole with no event horizon, which allows passage in both directions, and is held open by exotic energy; all those things are not present in the Einstein-Rosen concept.
It is the stability of exotic energy and matter which Hsu and Buniy are discussing; their verdict- not very.

I agree, but does it really matter what transport we use? One can reach a destination by both bicycle and car.

What about two blackholes, one in one time and one in another.
Perhaps a transportable artificial blackholes.

'It turns out that a blackhole which is rotating has a very important difference from one at rest. The event horizon still exists, as we would expect, though it is now smaller than in the stationary case by an amount depending on the spin of the blackhole. But as the rotating star collapses it becomes frozen, as seen by an outside observer, before it reaches the event horizon. The region on which the star's surface appears to hover for ever has been called the ergosphere. It is the surface on which time stands still, and immortality is created.
Here we have the first glimpse of the time machine of the future.
Living on the edge of the ergosphere has none of the dangers that are associated with event horizon brinkmanship, but yet all the advantages in the control of time.'

John Taylor Ph. D 'Blackholes'

 

[Timble2]

Has JUK disappeared through a timewarp?

 

[Anonymous]

Has JUK disappeared through a timewarp?

Timewarp.......now there's an interesting expression. A warping of Time.
How does one actually warp Time?

 

[Human_84]

Has JUK disappeared through a timewarp?

Timewarp.......now there's an interesting expression. A warping of Time.
How does one actually warp Time?

Its an expression that refers to time being warped for the person who chooses. Therefor they are in another time because it was warped for them. Warped is bended, stretched, etc..

 

[Anonymous]

To warp time you simply have to shove a lot of matter into it. A planet warps time, apparently. It's the old rubber mat theory.

 

[Melf]

Has JUK disappeared through a timewarp?

Timewarp.......now there's an interesting expression. A warping of Time.
How does one actually warp Time?

Criminologist: It's just a jump to the left

Chorus: And then a step to the right

Criminologist: With your hands on your hips

Chorus: You bring your knees in tight
But it's the pelvic thrust
That really drives you insane
Let's do the Time Warp again
Let's do the Time Warp again

and that how to do the time warp

 

[FilthyleDog]

Has JUK disappeared through a timewarp?

Timewarp.......now there's an interesting expression. A warping of Time.
How does one actually warp Time?

Criminologist: It's just a jump to the left

Chorus: And then a step to the right

Criminologist: With your hands on your hips

Chorus: You bring your knees in tight
But it's the pelvic thrust
That really drives you insane
Let's do the Time Warp again
Let's do the Time Warp again

and that how to do the time warp

Arf! :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Well apparently ( and I say 'apparently' because how do WE really know for sure), man went to the moon and we have put investigative probes on Mars, so why can't a species who may be capable of creating much more advanced machines comes to earth to see us?

It's definitely possible. Why would they come here you ask?
Why not?