Amityville Horror: Where Do You Stand?

[sherbetbizarre]

I'm not sure if this documentary has been posted here yet, it talks again the Defeo murders ..

Ha, Shattered Hopes... Over 15 years in the making and he still hasn't finished it!

There might be some interesting interviews in its bloated running time, but most of it is based on the recollections of Geraldine DeFeo, the killers alleged wife from the 70's - in reality they met and married in the 80's, so she was never there when the murders took place.

And the murders... the show claims there were multiple murderers in the house (including the sister) and we also have to sit through terrible dramatic reconstructions of what apparently really happened. The TV version cuts down everything to around 90 minutes, and includes the director summing up his work, in which he admits he believes Ronnie DeFeo probably acted alone anyway... what a waste of time!

So Geraldine is a sham. The director is a sham for pretending to believe all this BS for years, and the author of the book which started this nonsense is a sham too - and all three are the main talking heads in Shattered Hopes!

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

I thought I'd tell you all about something I found out recently - I had written about an old building I lived in for ten years, which was dreadfully haunted, which was across the street from a river with an Indian name. From an elderly neighbor I found out that a woman had hung herself in the attic right above my apartment on the second floor many years before.
I then heard of a woman from across the road a few houses down who drowned herself in that river, probably sometime in the 1950's.
When I lived there, there was an old tavern at the foot of the bridge on the left hand side, and one on the right. The owner of the tavern on the left ended up murdering a man and going to prison. When he got out, he died.
Recently I saw a newspaper clipping about the tavern on the right side of the bridge - turns out a woman owned it back in 1951 and she was bartending when a man walked in and shot her, then turned the gun on himself.
When I lived in that building, one of the residents had a psychic come before we moved and this psychic told us that it was a tragic area, and now I can see what she meant.
The reason I put it here on the Amityville thread is because it's basically the same story of an Indian area in the past, on the water, with murders and tragedy.
True story.

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

Here is the newspaper clipping, showing the man who shot the tavern owner, dated February 10, 1951:

This discovery really shook me, I had no idea about this murder. The building is still there, it took place right across the road from where I was living. Wondering what other strangeness happened on that block.

 

[MrRING]

I had a friend recommend the Haunted Objects podcast (related to the Newkirk Museum of the Paranormal), and I chose the first episode on The Amityville Plank, a piece of the house that the owners have for their haunted museum.

Does the Amityville Horror live on? Greg and Dana discuss a haunted plank of wood in the Newkirk Museum of the Paranormal: an actual piece of 112 Ocean Avenue. In this episode we stan Jodie the Demonic Pig, argue about spooky ghost children, and reveal surprising, brand-new information from an eye-witness source who claims that the world's most infamous haunted house held a deep, dark secret that other paranormal investigators have missed. Drink your Pepto Bismol, because everyone is getting diarrhea. How would we have investigated The Amityville Horror differently? What was Jodie the Demonic Pig really up to? Did anything weird actually happen in that house or was it just one big hoax? You'll find the answers to all these questions and more in the all new Haunted Objects Podcast!

At first, I thought that I wasn't going to like it. Too jokey, seemed to be going into hardcore skeptic territory. As it was recommended by a friend I decided to persevere, and was rewarded with an ultimately interesting listen when at about the 48 minute, it got into the thought that Missy was calling her spirit friend Jody the Pig Angel, combined with the fact that Butch De Feo called a neighbor cat a pig, and how would Missy have ever heard that if the cat was what she was seeing? Then at about the 55 minute they talk to a fellow who was a cameraman with George Lutz on his final tour, and he had some interesting tales to tell, including George meditating a green aura around himself. I've heard of George being accused of occultism, but the only thing that seemed concrete was trancendental meditation, which doesn't seem too occult to me.

They get into this at the end, and I find it an intriguing theory: that residual energy combined with George's interest and abilities in the occult to create the haunting effects on the family. If that is the case and their hunch is true (we'll never know), it might point toward a new way to investigate paranormal, by putting two kinds of phenomenon together as best one could (in this case, a house of trauma and bloodshed with an apparently skilled occultist interested in doing something).

 

[Paul_Exeter]

I had a friend recommend the Haunted Objects podcast (related to the Newkirk Museum of the Paranormal), and I chose the first episode on The Amityville Plank, a piece of the house that the owners have for their haunted museum.

At first, I thought that I wasn't going to like it. Too jokey, seemed to be going into hardcore skeptic territory. As it was recommended by a friend I decided to persevere, and was rewarded with an ultimately interesting listen when at about the 48 minute, it got into the thought that Missy was calling her spirit friend Jody the Pig Angel, combined with the fact that Butch De Feo called a neighbor cat a pig, and how would Missy have ever heard that if the cat was what she was seeing? Then at about the 55 minute they talk to a fellow who was a cameraman with George Lutz on his final tour, and he had some interesting tales to tell, including George meditating a green aura around himself. I've heard of George being accused of occultism, but the only thing that seemed concrete was trancendental meditation, which doesn't seem too occult to me.

They get into this at the end, and I find it an intriguing theory: that residual energy combined with George's interest and abilities in the occult to create the haunting effects on the family. If that is the case and their hunch is true (we'll never know), it might point toward a new way to investigate paranormal, by putting two kinds of phenomenon together as best one could (in this case, a house of trauma and bloodshed with an apparently skilled occultist interested in doing something).

Just to add, Greg and Dana are the couple behind the 'Hellier' web tv series about their hunt for the Kentucky goblins:

https://www.hellier.tv

I have a real soft spot for this show, it is quirky and at times disjointed but also atmospheric and fascinating

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

I thought I'd tell you all about something I found out recently - I had written about an old building I lived in for ten years, which was dreadfully haunted, which was across the street from a river with an Indian name. From an elderly neighbor I found out that a woman had hung herself in the attic right above my apartment on the second floor many years before.
I then heard of a woman from across the road a few houses down who drowned herself in that river, probably sometime in the 1950's.
When I lived there, there was an old tavern at the foot of the bridge on the left hand side, and one on the right. The owner of the tavern on the left ended up murdering a man and going to prison. When he got out, he died.
Recently I saw a newspaper clipping about the tavern on the right side of the bridge - turns out a woman owned it back in 1951 and she was bartending when a man walked in and shot her, then turned the gun on himself.
When I lived in that building, one of the residents had a psychic come before we moved and this psychic told us that it was a tragic area, and now I can see what she meant.
The reason I put it here on the Amityville thread is because it's basically the same story of an Indian area in the past, on the water, with murders and tragedy.
True story.

That American trope of "native American grave site" has always got me, though.

I wonder how much of that idea, culturally, comes from just guilt - to be living in a land that was once (and still really is) someone else's? It echoes other cultures too - like here, the Anglo Saxons thinking that Roman ruins in the landscape were haunted - or the idea that the Tuatha de Danaan lived in old barrows... older, inexplicable cultures always get superstitions etc centred round them by subsequent cultures living in the same space?

Not doubting your experiences at all - but think the "Indian area in the past, on water" element is somewhat of a cultural overlay. Those experiences can be genuine without the other stuff.

That said, water has memory, is a limial space, always - in whatever culture, probably. Things happen by water. (I live within sight of a river - it is a peculiarly eerie place, at times).

Re. Amityville - I can't decide whether the house looks creepy because of its associations or just... the style of it would always have looked creepy. I do believe "spirit of place" is a thing, just not that idea that an older, possibly preferable, culture makes x place or y place more susceptible to the paranormal? If that makes sense.

 

[Sollywos]

I do believe "spirit of place"

Ah so that might explain why previous occupants of the land choose to settle where they did. Later settlers just pick up on the vibes (for want of a better word) and interpret/react to them within their own cultural framework? Something like that anyway.

 

[Sharon Hill]

Ah so that might explain why previous occupants of the land choose to settle where they did. Later settlers just pick up on the vibes (for want of a better word) and interpret/react to them within their own cultural framework? Something like that anyway.

Almost everything that was said about the natives and their history of the area in the context of this murder and subsequent haunting was entirely wrong. I blame Holtzer, who made stuff up. But so did almost everyone involved in that tale.

There are at least two scholarly books about the ideas of haunted indigenous lands.

The National Uncanny, Bergland (not very good)
Phantom Past, Indigenous Presence, Boyd (haven’t read but heard it is better)

 

[Stormkhan]

I thought it was the Warrens that first touted the burial ground theory.

 

[Sharon Hill]

I thought it was the Warrens that first touted the burial ground theory.

Not according to the Amityville FAQ. But I also read it somewhere else. Just can’t find the source at the moment. https://www.amityvillefaq.com/property.html

 

[sherbetbizarre]

The Warrens were more into demons...

Maps at the Amityville Historical Society reportedly showed Shinnecock settlements - these were seen by Holzer and others - which then "disappeared" as the Horror became a phenomenon. Years later a documentary crew found a lady who quit the Society at the time, outraged the town would alter its own history in an attempt to quell the hysteria. (unfortunately she wasn't interviewed for the show)

 

[Stormkhan]

The Warrens were more into demons...

True. Shame they're not around anymore or they could become the meme "I'm not sayin' it was demons ... but it was demons!"

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

That American trope of "native American grave site" has always got me, though.

I wonder how much of that idea, culturally, comes from just guilt - to be living in a land that was once (and still really is) someone else's? It echoes other cultures too - like here, the Anglo Saxons thinking that Roman ruins in the landscape were haunted - or the idea that the Tuatha de Danaan lived in old barrows... older, inexplicable cultures always get superstitions etc centred round them by subsequent cultures living in the same space?

Not doubting your experiences at all - but think the "Indian area in the past, on water" element is somewhat of a cultural overlay. Those experiences can be genuine without the other stuff.

That said, water has memory, is a limial space, always - in whatever culture, probably. Things happen by water. (I live within sight of a river - it is a peculiarly eerie place, at times).

Re. Amityville - I can't decide whether the house looks creepy because of its associations or just... the style of it would always have looked creepy. I do believe "spirit of place" is a thing, just not that idea that an older, possibly preferable, culture makes x place or y place more susceptible to the paranormal? If that makes sense.

Didn't you ever hear the thing about 'witches always live near the water'?
For some reason, water seems to carry an energy with it.
No one has to believe it, but it's happened to me so I do believe it.

 

[catseye]

Didn't you ever hear the thing about 'witches always live near the water'?
For some reason, water seems to carry an energy with it.
No one has to believe it, but it's happened to me so I do believe it.

I wonder if this is another 'tale overlying a tale' - if you look at the way water was treated as either a liminal space or a way to the ancestors back in the Bronze Age when items were sacrificed to bodies of water - perhaps something of that belief still endures?

 

[SimonBurchell]

I wonder if this is another 'tale overlying a tale' - if you look at the way water was treated as either a liminal space or a way to the ancestors back in the Bronze Age when items were sacrificed to bodies of water - perhaps something of that belief still endures?

It certainly does in traditional societies - there is a beautiful crater lake in western Guatemala where the local Maya still make flower sacrifices, and view the whole lake as a portal to the ancestors. It is very atmospheric, since it is set in the cloud forest, and subject to intermittently being engulfed by eery scudding clouds.

 

[SimonBurchell]

Here's a few photos I took last year, Laguna Chicabal in Quetzaltenango Department:

 

[Damien]

I had a friend recommend the Haunted Objects podcast (related to the Newkirk Museum of the Paranormal), and I chose the first episode on The Amityville Plank, a piece of the house that the owners have for their haunted museum.

At first, I thought that I wasn't going to like it. Too jokey, seemed to be going into hardcore skeptic territory. As it was recommended by a friend I decided to persevere, and was rewarded with an ultimately interesting listen when at about the 48 minute, it got into the thought that Missy was calling her spirit friend Jody the Pig Angel, combined with the fact that Butch De Feo called a neighbor cat a pig, and how would Missy have ever heard that if the cat was what she was seeing? Then at about the 55 minute they talk to a fellow who was a cameraman with George Lutz on his final tour, and he had some interesting tales to tell, including George meditating a green aura around himself. I've heard of George being accused of occultism, but the only thing that seemed concrete was trancendental meditation, which doesn't seem too occult to me.

They get into this at the end, and I find it an intriguing theory: that residual energy combined with George's interest and abilities in the occult to create the haunting effects on the family. If that is the case and their hunch is true (we'll never know), it might point toward a new way to investigate paranormal, by putting two kinds of phenomenon together as best one could (in this case, a house of trauma and bloodshed with an apparently skilled occultist interested in doing something).

The Amityville Plank, is this going to be a new Netflix series?

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

It certainly does in traditional societies - there is a beautiful crater lake in western Guatemala where the local Maya still make flower sacrifices, and view the whole lake as a portal to the ancestors. It is very atmospheric, since it is set in the cloud forest, and subject to intermittently being engulfed by eery scudding clouds.

Somewhat like a Wishing Well - we used to have a huge waterfall at our local mall, it was stuffed with coins. Everyone would make a wish and throw their coins in, and I must have spent a fortune there myself!

 

[Frideswide]

Didn't you ever hear the thing about 'witches always live near the water'?
For some reason, water seems to carry an energy with it.
No one has to believe it, but it's happened to me so I do believe it.

I wonder if you've read TC Lethbridge on ghouls? If you haven't, I recommend him and part of his theoretical structure runs parallel to your observation.

 

[catseye]

Here's a few photos I took last year, Laguna Chicabal in Quetzaltenango Department:
View attachment 63075

View attachment 63077
View attachment 63078

How incredibly beautiful.

 

[Tempest63]

I’m reading Conversations with Ghosts, written up from the notes of Alex Tanous by Callum Cooper.

Alex Tanous was reputedly a talented psychic, little known in the U.K. but well known in the U.S.

He visited the Amityville house in the early days before it became infamous. Tanous reported that he saw nothing physically or felt anything psychically in the house and believed it to be a hoax. He added he saw sight of a contract outlining the rights and gains of the book and the film promoting the alleged Amityville “haunting”.

Tanous and his investigative team felt their time at Amityville was wasted and they dropped their interest in the case.

It is worth listening to the Howard Hughes interview with Callum Cooper on the January2014 Unexplained podcast discussing the work of Tanous. (I believe I posted the link to this on the Fortean Podcast thread a few weeks ago)

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-unexplained-with-howard-hughes/id155963493?i=1000428495566

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

I remember a talk show which featured George Lutz, I believe Kathy Lutz was also on it, speaking about their experiences.
Jim Brolin, the actor who played George Lutz in 'The Amityville Horror' film, also appeared on the show. As George was speaking seriously about his experiences, Brolin was smirking and laughing at his side.
I thought that was so disrespectful, especially since Brolin made a good salary I'm sure for that part.
And six people were murdered there, nothing to joke about.
Guess that's Hollyweird for you.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

Didn't you ever hear the thing about 'witches always live near the water'?
For some reason, water seems to carry an energy with it.
No one has to believe it, but it's happened to me so I do believe it.

Yes, absolutely - is a liminal thing (I live metres from a body of water talking of witches lol and am also aware of all the superstitions that surrounded, for example, inland mariners and various communities like the one my mum was from, who lived alongside rivers and have very unique cultures, tonnes of superstitions, etc).

I'd separate that out from the old "native American grave sites" trope, though - which I am wary/sceptical about. And of course, different nations had different customs around death, too, which that trope doesn't seem to take into account. Also, there's all that stuff about the "memory" of water.

This idea of a 'lost" or forgotten people who once lived in a certain place, imbuing it with magic is an old thing across cultures, too. Just down the road are some almost flattened now, barrows, which also happen to be in a fairly watery/marshy place - incredibly evocative. If i want to creep myself out, I go there at dusk.

In the case of Amityville though I suspect it's just an already creepy looking house that was easy to weave the narrative round.

 

[catseye]

Yes, absolutely - is a liminal thing (I live metres from a body of water talking of witches lol and am also aware of all the superstitions that surrounded, for example, inland mariners and various communities like the one my mum was from, who lived alongside rivers and have very unique cultures, tonnes of superstitions, etc).

I'd separate that out from the old "native American grave sites" trope, though - which I am wary/sceptical about. And of course, different nations had different customs around death, too, which that trope doesn't seem to take into account. Also, there's all that stuff about the "memory" of water.

This idea of a 'lost" or forgotten people who once lived in a certain place, imbuing it with magic is an old thing across cultures, too. Just down the road are some almost flattened now, barrows, which also happen to be in a fairly watery/marshy place - incredibly evocative. If i want to creep myself out, I go there at dusk.

In the case of Amityville though I suspect it's just an already creepy looking house that was easy to weave the narrative round.

Here, all our barrows are on high ground. They seem to have been built on the skyline, to be visible for miles around, which would chime with the idea of land ownership and demonstrating that ownership through the housing of the ancestors.

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

The house used in 'The Amityville Horror' film, in Toms River NJ (the Jersey Shore area), has sold for $1.46 million dollars:

‘Amityville Horror’ home sells for $1.46 million​

The iconic New Jersey house that served as a stand-in for the real haunted homestead in the 1979 film “Amityville Horror” has found a new owner, The Post has learned.

In September, the four-bedroom, five-bathroom Toms River property listed for $1.7 million, asking that any interested buyers submit their best bids by Oct. 24.

The home went into contract two days later and officially sold for $1.46 million on Jan. 24 — $240,000 less than the asking price.

Over the years, the riverfront home has seen several renovations since it was first built back in 1920.

https://nypost.com/2023/01/27/amityville-horror-home-sells-for-1-46-million/

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

Here, all our barrows are on high ground. They seem to have been built on the skyline, to be visible for miles around, which would chime with the idea of land ownership and demonstrating that ownership through the housing of the ancestors.

These ones are no longer visible on the surface, but still were 100 years or so back, apparently. It's all very low lying and marshy where they are.

 

[catseye]

These ones are no longer visible on the surface, but still were 100 years or so back, apparently. It's all very low lying and marshy where they are.

I seem to remember Francis Pryor talking about low-lying barrows in the fenland regions. Still erected to mark land ownership, because the land is so flat they stood out, even though built on flat ground.

 

[Ghost In The Machine]

I seem to remember Francis Pryor talking about low-lying barrows in the fenland regions. Still erected to mark land ownership, because the land is so flat they stood out, even though built on flat ground.

Yes, I'd guess they once stood out even more, because it was so flat?

Think the Victorians had a go at excavating them when there was still something obviously there. So now, there's nothing to see but at one time, they must have been very striking. It's also eerie there as it was an RAF base in WW2 so there are still air raid shelters amongst the trees, and bits of runway...

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

From 2021, in case anyone is interested in looking at photos of the real Amityville Horror House, from our NY Post:

Inside the ‘Amityville Horror’ house today, Long Island’s most notorious mansion​

"One of the country’s most famously creepy houses is back in the news.

Ronald DeFeo Jr., the notorious killer at the “Amityville Horror” house — a dwelling whose mystique continues to fascinate the public in the wake of a subsequent book and film franchise — died in prison Friday at 69.

DeFeo, whose nickname was Butch, spread terror across Long Island following the gruesome 1974 slaying of his family at their home at 108 Ocean Ave.

The home — its original address was 112 Ocean Ave. but was changed to 108 to deter tourists — was purchased by George and Kathy Lutz one year after the murders. But they ditched the property after only one month due to reported paranormal activity, which inspired a 1977 book and 1979 movie."

https://nypost.com/2021/03/15/insid...se-today-long-islands-most-notorious-mansion/

 

[Stormkhan]

So ... changing the number to 'deter tourists' worked well then?