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An Abundance Of Foxes

gncxx said:
Recycled1 said:
What sort of a family leaves not only the bedroom /living room door but the main front/back door open to allow access by a FOX? Or are we talking downstairs windows? Either way it strikes me as a very careless attitude bordering on neglect.

Especially in this weather!

Suspicious, could be a family pet did it. On BBC news it was reported that the mother had to kick the fox several times before it left go of the baby. That is not normal fox behaviour.
 
Fluttermoth said:
Most predators will go for young if they can; much easier to catch.

But with these stories it seems that the fox is sneaking in through the open back door/window, up the stairs and into the baby's room. Doesn't really sound easier.

For a fox to enter a house at all seems unusual, but to be so bold as to go straight up the stairs past any family areas downstairs (where I assume the family are sitting in silence to not spook the fox) and to start attacking the most vulnerable member of the family..

My cat won't come into the living room if he thinks there is someone he doesn't recognise in there and we've had him 15 years. For a wild animal to not be concerned about running into a human being while invading their house, it doesn't sound right to me at all.
 
.....and cats DON'T suffocate babies. I'm not saying it's never happened, but unless the cat lies directly over the babies nose and mouth and then dies it just isn't going to happen.

Cats tend to move when something starts fidgeting, wriggling and panicking underneath them.

MrsCarlos has been a midwife for over twenty years, and she now teaches midwifery degree courses - the cat story is an urban legend that the profession is continually trying to dismiss, and companies selling nets to stop cats getting into baskets are counting on people perpetuating it.

It's an outrage I tells ya!

And almost as annoying as people making up stories about foxes which saunter into houses and try and eat children.
 
ramonmercado said:
That is not normal fox behaviour.

We're not talking normal foxes though, are we? Urban foxes are so tame now that they're virtually a new species. I think there's probably an element of embelleshing the story here - I, too, doubt that she had to kick it numerous times - but I can quite believe a fox entering a house, after hearing a baby (which sounds not unlike a rabbit screaming) and having a go at the youngster.

Besides, they should count themselves lucky - I had a black mamba get in my room when I was a kid!
 
CarlosTheDJ said:
.....and cats DON'T suffocate babies. I'm not saying it's never happened, but unless the cat lies directly over the babies nose and mouth and then dies it just isn't going to happen.

Cats tend to move when something starts fidgeting, wriggling and panicking underneath them.

MrsCarlos has been a midwife for over twenty years, and she now teaches midwifery degree courses - the cat story is an urban legend that the profession is continually trying to dismiss, and companies selling nets to stop cats getting into baskets are counting on people perpetuating it.

It's an outrage I tells ya!

And almost as annoying as people making up stories about foxes which saunter into houses and try and eat children.

When my son was born, I had a much loved cat who was determined to sleep on top of my baby son in his carrycot.
I think the cat liked the look of the cosy new bedding. Obviously I was using a cat net -just to be on the safe side - but in the end the only way I could deter the cat was to put lightweight underclothes /toys /general odds and ends on top of the baby, in a slightly untidy heap so that the cat wasn't quite sure how flat the surface was.
I knew it was unlikely that the baby would be suffocated, but this was nearly 30 years ago,and there was a lot of talk of cot deaths at the time.
 
Sorry, my post might have sounded as though I was calling you wrong for using one - I wasn't!

:oops:

Just doing my bit to dispel a myth. I still think a fox coming in and attacking a baby is far-fetched, to say the least. We've loads of foxes round our way and they run away when my cat looks at them - and he's a wimp.
 
This family owned a dog? Must be a pretty crap one. My Springer would've smelt a fox and immediately barked the house down.
 
Sergeant_Pluck said:
ramonmercado said:
That is not normal fox behaviour.

We're not talking normal foxes though, are we? Urban foxes are so tame now that they're virtually a new species. I think there's probably an element of embelleshing the story here - I, too, doubt that she had to kick it numerous times - but I can quite believe a fox entering a house, after hearing a baby (which sounds not unlike a rabbit screaming) and having a go at the youngster.

Besides, they should count themselves lucky - I had a black mamba get in my room when I was a kid!

A quokka tried to get into my backpack in Australia.

Yes, urban foxes could eventually become a sub-species, behaviour adapts as well.
 
What sort of a family leaves not only the bedroom /living room door but the main front/back door open to allow access by a FOX? Or are we talking downstairs windows? Either way it strikes me as a very careless attitude bordering on neglect.

If the bar to "child neglect" has been lowered to the level of leaving a window open, I think we have really lost all perspective.

In this case the family claim there was a faulty latch which they had reported to the council but had not been fixed.

Suspicious, could be a family pet did it.

I have to say this was my first thought as well. Pets can get very jealous of new arrivals and I'm not convinced that anyone apart from the media has confirmed this to be a fox.
 
Leaving an upstairs window open where a baby is sleeping is all very well, but I certainly wouldn't leave a downstairs window open over night -or not with enough space to allow a cat /fox / burgler's arm in!
 
Leaving an upstairs window open where a baby is sleeping is all very well, but I certainly wouldn't leave a downstairs window open over night -or not with enough space to allow a cat /fox / burgler's arm in!

I think the alleged attack took place in the early evening rather than overnight - but TBH I don't think a baby is much at risk from a fox or a cat (as Carlos says, the "cat smothering baby" story is almost certainly an old wives' tale). And burglars tend to take cash and easily fenceable goods not babies.

Of course people want to protect their babies, but leaving a window in a house open is not neglect by any stretch of the imagination!
 
For years I had traumatic dreams of a cat's bottom descending on my infant face.

But leafing through the family album, I decided it must have been Auntie Gertie's puckered old lips bringing a miasma of halitosis and cold-sores.

Just thought I'd share. :spinning
 
My tuppence worth:
Given that it is really rather cold right now, why was a window or door left open wide enough to allow a fox in? Maybe it's because I live in a house with very little in the way of heating, but I've not found the necessary to leave a window or door open in weeks. In summer I will leave my back door open as I do house work or whatever, random cats have found their way in this way, but not in this weather.
Although I can see an urban fox coming into a house, I can imagine it would only be a house where there has been a history of it being fed.

My thought is this: either they had been encouraging the fox into their house by feeding it and therefore feel guilty for the harm that has come to their baby and are therefore denying it.
Or, their household pet dog harmed the baby but they know that they will need to have the dog destroyed and can't face that so they have blamed a fox.
 
Actually I wondered about the household dog as well. They can become very jealous. My parents in law had a tiny Australian terrier that was particularly jealous of my eldest so I always put her carrybasket on top of their bed if she was asleep.
Driving to the station this morning my daughter said" That was a fox dead on the side of the road". I hadn't noticed as there were workmen and trucks everywhere there. We live in a quite urban area with no bushy parts but it may have come from a bit further down from the racecourse, as there's a lake there and some vegetation.
 
My tuppence worth...

There's a certain group in the UK who would love to go fox hunting again.

What better way to rally people to their call than planting scare-mongering stories in the press of human attacking foxes.

We don't see many "dog bites human" stories in the news.
 
Given that it is really rather cold right now, why was a window or door left open wide enough to allow a fox in?

The family say that the fox entered through a closed back door with a broken latch. If true this seems even stranger.

There's a certain group in the UK who would love to go fox hunting again.

What better way to rally people to their call than planting scare-mongering stories in the press of human attacking foxes.

Without a doubt, hence the hysteria in the Mail and Telegraph - not to mention BoJo sticking his oar in.

It will be interesting to see how this develops. As I say, we only have the family's word that the attacker was a fox. As far as I am aware neither the police nor the hospital treating the baby have confirmed this.
 
:twisted:

As far as I can gather the rather vague and ever shifting "facts" in this case, followed by my own thoughts:

The fox got through a door that was left open because it was broken.
The housing association (Pheonix Housing) issued a statement saying the repairs were made to the door on 24th January, sometime before the alleged attack took place.

The story then seemed to shift to patio doors left open, possibly after a barbeque.
In sub zero February.

The story has excalated to more recent press reports of the living room being covered with blood, the fox pulling the child from a cot and smashing it's head against a door frame causing head injuries and a black eye, and the mother "wrestling" the fox to free the child.
None of the specific injuries or suspected causes of injury have been confirmed by the hospital or the police (as far as I can tell). In fact I don't think the hospital have said anything at all.

They have a dog.
I won't even state the obvious.
Also, a fox voluntarily entering a confined space such as a house is vanishingly unlikely anyway (unless they'd been deliberately trained and encouraged to by prolonged feeding incentives), but the idea a fox would enter a confined space with a dog is as likely as a wildebeast climbing into a car with a lion.
It is a wild animal. I've seen an urban (yes, mutant urban) fox turn tail and run from a 4 month old kitten. And it was a huge dog fox at that.

Some PR companies have been advertising online for fox attack stories in recent months (for financial incentives). They're are places where these pages have been saved, don't know if there's any current ones. Probably not. They tend to pull the adverts when more fox positive types find and spam them.

A powerful group within the ruling conservative party are lobbying hard to have the ban on hunting foxes with dogs lifted. A tough call when the majority of the population and MPs support the ban. Where better to start than 'if we don't kill them first they'll eat your babies.'
On a related note, you should see how they (and their tame papers) have been vilifying and smearing the RSPCA after they successfully bought a prosection against a hunt for illegal hunting. They even tried to get them stripped of charitable status.
Agenda? What agenda?

A few urban fox facts. There numbers are not increasing but have been stable for many years (at around 33000).
Their numbers are controlled by disease (mange mainly) and how much food they can get (ie how filthy we are) They also eat a lot of rats.
Some are getting tamer and bolder as they get more used to people, especially if fed regularly.
Answer: don't feed them, or feed rationally, at a distant, and only in small amounts.

As far as I know there is no historical record of a human being killed by a wolf (please correct me if I'm wrong), there's definately not been any of a person, even a baby, killed by a red fox. And they number many millions and range across half the globe.

.....and, just to finish (in case I haven't already said enough 8) )

Isn't any other British readers out there just a little bit ashamed? We are one of the few places on Earth (ABC question aside) where humans do NOT have to live alongside anything remotely dangerous. Where populations have to live with Tigers, Lions, Leopard, Bears, Puma, Wolves, highly venomous snakes/spiders etc etc, some debate may be justified, and we are usually the first to hold up our hands in horror at the suggestion they may want to cull/move these speices. Always the first to lecture how they have to find a way to live alongside and preserve their country's biodiversity. Even as their children sometimes really do get eaten.

Surely our incessant bleating about Foxes start to look just embarrassingly pathetic?
 
Brilliant post.

I'm particularly interested in the following:

Some PR companies have been advertising online for fox attack stories in recent months (for financial incentives).

I wonder who they're working for?
 
Isn't any other British readers out there just a little bit ashamed? ...

Surely our incessant bleating about Foxes start to look just embarrassingly pathetic?

Agreed. Your kids can take their chances with the tigers and the leopards we're sponsoring, while we can't really be expected to share our Island with foxes.

Two points though Eve; firstly just from my own experience I can't believe the numbers aren't increasing. As I posted earlier I can only remember seeing one fox as a kid now it's pretty much every night and that's not just in one area either.

Secondly wolves have killed people, I used to think there were no recorded cases but I've since found out there are.

For example;

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/home/ ... tality.pdf
 
So, a big old dog fox will run from a 4-month old kitten, but will eat a lot of rats? How's that work, then, given that a rat is a bloody sight more vicious than a 4-month old kitten? I don't see how you can defend Mr/Fox for being a pansy around cats, then tell us it's great because it kills rats.

I don't see this is a nefarious conspiracy to bring back fox-hunting. The cynic in me says that fox-hunting has never really left anyway. I just think it's sensationalism, pure and simple. The media loves any form of animal attack story - if it's not dangerous dogs, then it's rodents, or giant insects, or tarantulas/black widows/whatever imported in banana shipments. I don't think anyone's got it in for the fox, it's just that the fox happens to be Johnnny-on-the-spot right now.
 
Two points though Eve; firstly just from my own experience I can't believe the numbers aren't increasing. As I posted earlier I can only remember seeing one fox as a kid now it's pretty much every night and that's not just in one area either.

The best I can do in limited time is link to this BBC article with 3 seperate sources referenced:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21409631

If you go back further, to say the 60s/70s when they were first appearing in urban areas, there will be an increase. But not in the last 20-30 years, there' a pretty unversal consensus on that.
Of course, it doesn't take into account local changes. Areas may now have populations where there weren't any 10 years ago, and areas where they previously thrived may now have none. The Bristol mange outbreak being a good example - they lost almost all of their urban foxes a few years back, so now their numbers are increasing right across the city to fill the gaps.
There's also the issue of foxes becoming more visible as they get more used to city environments so appearing to increase in number.

Secondly wolves have killed people, I used to think there were no recorded cases but I've since found out there are.

Glad you've cleared that up. I always suspected there must have been even though it's widely asserted that there hasn't been any, but I've never been able to track down a definative answer. Hence the caution :)
 
Sergeant_Pluck said:
So, a big old dog fox will run from a 4-month old kitten, but will eat a lot of rats? How's that work, then, given that a rat is a bloody sight more vicious than a 4-month old kitten? I don't see how you can defend Mr/Fox for being a pansy around cats, then tell us it's great because it kills rats.

Yep, but it's also down to evolution. Of course a fox is more than capable of killing a 4 month old kitten, and I'm sure they do sometimes, just like a rat can injure a fox, but their instincts generally tell them:

Rats=Prey
Cats=Fellow Predator That Could Injure Me
Damaged eye, infected wound (scratch/bite) from fight with fellow predator = probable death due to reduced hunting ability

The fact is foxes eat rats everyday but will go for a cat once in a blue moon, and then only if protecting young/starving/cornered.

And I did see a big urban dog fox run from a 4 month old kitten (mine) that hissed at him. Doesn't matter if he could swallow her in one bite, his self preservation instincts as dictated by evolution kicked in. He saw 'hissy cat that can hurt my face' not 'little kitty'.

I do agree that just plain old animal attack sensationalism is a big part of the hysterical media coverage.
As for a specific anti fox agenda - well, it's up to each of us to form our own conclusions :)
 
If you go back further, to say the 60s/70s when they were first appearing in urban areas, there will be an increase. ...
There's also the issue of foxes becoming more visible as they get more used to city environments so appearing to increase in number.

It's a fair point, and thinking about it the areas I live and travel through at night where I see them, range from the rural to the semi rural/suburban, so I think the increase may well be due to the ban on hunting, which I believe was quite popular round here.

He saw 'hissy cat that can hurt my face' not 'little kitty'.

Spot on, carnivores live in fear of debilitating injury.
 
Eve11 said:
..The Bristol mange outbreak being a good example - they lost almost all of their urban foxes a few years back, so now their numbers are increasing right across the city to fill the gaps.
That's true. Where we lived at that time (mid 90s-ish) we saw foxes all the time - and then, suddenly, none at all. Twenty years on they've only recently started to re-appear. I saw my first one of the new breed last year, walking in woodland not far from my present home (there's lots of open space and woodland in Bristol, which is why they've always done ok here, disease aside.)

And yes, our cat used to regularly chase them off :).
Eve11 said:
oldrover said:
Secondly wolves have killed people, I used to think there were no recorded cases but I've since found out there are.

Glad you've cleared that up. I always suspected there must have been even though it's widely asserted that there hasn't been any, but I've never been able to track down a definative answer. Hence the caution :)
Also well worth bearing in mind those, rare, attacks tend to be in remote areas that could be defined as more the wolves' territory than human: a far different proposition from them breaking and entering and abducting children. That's Brothers Grimm stuff - as I suspect this recent alleged fox-incursion is. Cherche le chien.
 
That's Brothers Grimm stuff - as I suspect this recent alleged fox-incursion is. Cherche le chien.

I find it strange - and not a little worrying - that no one in the mainstream media appears to have even queried this strange and constantly shifting story.
 
I see the story has now shifted again... the baby wasn't in his cot but was rather propped up on cushions on the sofa in the front room.
 
Chris Packham gives his opinion. Always a man worth listening to:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21407979

(I find it slightly annoying the way the BBC presenter keeps trying to interrupt him at the end, and scoffing when he had the audacity to suggest that cities are an encroachment on the natural world and not vice versa... :x )
 
oldrover said:
markrkingston1 said:
I get the impression they moved into urban/suburban areas simply because there was and is a ready food supply. Many people also go out of their way to feed them now that they are here.

My impression in this area of NW London is that foxes have largely out-competed the feral cats that used to live here (probably combined with neutering campaigns for the cats).

I'm sure you're right but what I don't get is what started this change around about 15 or s years ago?
A good question. I have no specific answer other than to suggest gradual evolution.

Changes in fox 'culture' are gradual and probably result in a change in the genotype, causing certain types of beneficial behaviour to be increased. I.e. Foxes that are, by nature, happy to hang around in towns do better and thus pass on their 'near human' genes to their young.
 
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