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Atheism

Personally, I cannot separate God from Science.

The more I get familiar with 'Science's' various disciplines, the more I see confirmation of the hand of...Something Grand.

On the other hand, I would declare public displays of worship forbidden...'it's an act of Love? do it in private then!'

Another edict that I would make, THERE IS BUT ONE GOD...which you bastards give different names and faces to, so that you can feel special.

And Scriptures! Unless they are acknowledged as the writings of mankind, with an addendum that...'Well...this is what we think God would say', then no public mention should be made of them.

As for 'God shouldn't allow this to happen'...9 times out of 10 this is an act of barbarity wrought by humans onto other humans.

And finally, The eleventh commandment needs to be: God has nothing to do with our daily lives - it's all our own donig...(sic)

I'll get of me soapbox now.
 
Personally, I cannot separate God from Science.

Another edict that I would make, THERE IS BUT ONE GOD...which you bastards give different names and faces to, so that you can feel special.
Over time, I have read about how quite a number of scientists in different fields have come to believe in God as they do more and more research. The common thread seems to be that 'this cannot have happened by accident'. My point about science was it cannot be used to study God.

Who are the 'you bastards' you are referring to?

There are four pillars of religion found in every scripture in the world. Truthfulness, mercy, cleanliness and humility.

For me, and obviously not for atheists, different religions are just different paths up the same mountain to reach the same mountain top. In other words, there is just one God and just as a king (or queen) is known by many different tittles and names by different people according to the relationship, it is the same with God. The child or wife of a king does not use 'your majesty' in private and likewise a servant would not use 'Charlie', as an example.

Sorry, off topic. I think.
 
Christianity does not explain who God is, what His names are, or any real details other than a very broad outline and it also does not explain the process of creation as both of those are not the purpose of Christianity.

Science always seeks to put itself on the top rung. It's almost as if God only exists if science can prove He does which would then put science back above God.

The journey of religion is one of going inwards to learn about our true nature or self realisation and through that to re establish our lost relationship with God. We are imperfect, prone to illusion, limited and prone to making mistakes and unless we are reconnected in some way to the source that is perfect, then we can never start to understand God. The mind on it's own can never understand there is a God. It needs a via medium to do that. It can't be studied by science either as it's outside and beyond the realm of the material sciences. It's also personal to each person and expresses itself differently because we are all individual. By nature, God consciousness is not scientific.

What we imagine in terms of who created God, that is illusion. Imagine a place where everything exists eternally. God is the original who has always been and will always be and we are His created parts and parcels. We understand life in this world through the action of time. Spiritually, there is no time, and our nature is just that, timeless, but it's covered at present with the dense heavy illusion of time which is a force more powerful than every scientist that has ever existed, exists now, and will ever exist.

To me atheism is just a lack of knowledge off God and doesn't seem to be able to be a thing without there being a God to be atheistic about. In fact if there was no God there would be no atheism because we'd all be of the same mindset. It's like 'dark' has no meaning without 'light', etc.
Conclusion. . . ?
ying  & yang.jpg
 
Christianity does not explain who God is, what His names are, or any real details other than a very broad outline and it also does not explain the process of creation as both of those are not the purpose of Christianity.
Yeah. In fact it is possible to follow the teachings of Christianity without believing in God. Christian Atheism is a real position, and is surprisingly common.
Christian atheism is a form of Christianity that rejects the theistic claims of Christianity, but draws its beliefs and practices from Jesus' life and teachings as recorded in the New Testament Gospels and other sources.
....
In the Netherlands, 42% of the members of the Protestant Church in the Netherlands (PKN) are nontheists.
....
A substantial portion of Quakers are nontheist Quakers. Among British Quakers, 14.5% identified as atheists and 43% felt "unable to profess belief in God" in 2013.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism
See also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_atheism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_atheism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_Buddhism
 
My point about science was it cannot be used to study God.
I agree with you on that R.K., and yet the study of the sciences can spawn a realisation that the synchronicity involved within physics and chemistry isn't happenstance...it is wonderfully consistent, and how does this consistantly continue to happen

And 'the bastards' I'm refering to are those heads of churches - and those obviously intelligent men and women - who push the idea that any other religion of 'their'god is an anathema, therefore promoting and continuing these present day warring conditions that present the idea of martyrdom as being something to strive to...which brings me to the four pillars of religion, to which I say, 'not all religions'.

And definitely not off topic R.K.
 
The Pope must have a “ sense of humor “ as all these people with serious faces watched the Pope being released from the hospital after bronchitis looking for the first words from the Pope.

The Pope smiled at all the TV crews and audience and said “ look folks I am not dead yet “ with a devilish smile.
 
From The Atlantic. As a Catholic I have the same thoughts and fears: religion is dying out, and there is nothing to replace it. Atheist may rejoice, but this is a big loss for society and culture:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...e-anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

Forty million Americans have stopped attending church in the past 25 years. That’s something like 12 percent of the population, and it represents the largest concentrated change in church attendance in American history. As a Christian, I feel this shift acutely. My wife and I wonder whether the institutions and communities that have helped preserve us in our own faith will still exist for our four children, let alone whatever grandkids we might one day have.

This change is also bad news for America as a whole: Participation in a religious community generally correlates with better health outcomes and longer life, higher financial generosity, and more stable families—all of which are desperately needed in a nation with rising rates of loneliness, mental illness, and alcohol and drug dependency.
 
From The Atlantic. As a Catholic I have the same thoughts and fears: religion is dying out, and there is nothing to replace it.
Islam is replacing Christianity.
 
This is only meant to be an observation on my part.

According to the World Health Organization as of July of 2023, covid has killed 1,127,152 people in the U.S.

With over a million dead, this left thousands of children orphaned.

And since a parent died this left many families in hardship status.

Maybe people see a dark place with no way out and what ever religion you believe in may not be enough to help.
 
From The Atlantic. As a Catholic I have the same thoughts and fears: religion is dying out, and there is nothing to replace it. Atheist may rejoice, but this is a big loss for society and culture:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...e-anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

Forty million Americans have stopped attending church in the past 25 years. That’s something like 12 percent of the population, and it represents the largest concentrated change in church attendance in American history. As a Christian, I feel this shift acutely. My wife and I wonder whether the institutions and communities that have helped preserve us in our own faith will still exist for our four children, let alone whatever grandkids we might one day have.

This change is also bad news for America as a whole: Participation in a religious community generally correlates with better health outcomes and longer life, higher financial generosity, and more stable families—all of which are desperately needed in a nation with rising rates of loneliness, mental illness, and alcohol and drug dependency.
While it might be 'dying out' in the States, whoever is left is putting more and more pressure on politicians.
I understand the benefits of some religious organisations - but these seem to be overshadowed by the more 'muscular' church, who's interference in governance is acting as a form of elitism. Instead of equality, it wants supremacy over other faiths and atheists.
 
Is Atheism A Belief System... or Fact?

It just struck me - many people who are atheists seem to regard it as a fact, irrefutable. But isn't it a belief system, exactly the same as monotheism, polytheism, or agnosticism? Or is it scientific "fact"? I'm not sure how it's calssified, but it might be scientific fact to a believer in atheism, but just a belief to anybody else....
I don't know any atheists who regret their lack of belief in a god defined by a religion that causes severe cognitive dissonance. who are you referring to or are you imagining it? I realize this is a very old post but it irks me that religious people make assumptions about atheists, and even the definition of atheist. Most christians consider anyone who doesn't believe that Jesus died for your sins as an atheist so if you are a religous person trying to comment on atheists Please define the term in your own words so people actually understand what you are talking about instead of a bunch of knee jertk agreement or disagreement base on each individual's idea of what that word means.
 
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Science always seeks to put itself on the top rung. It's almost as if God only exists if science can prove He does which would then put science back above God.
When I was a kid I used to tell people who argued about science and god "Science is proof of god because of the revelations of symetry that science displays." If I had been catholic I would have been a jesuit, now I have no use for anything christian except the people I love who follow that religion.
 
Another edict that I would make, THERE IS BUT ONE GOD...which you bastards give different names and faces to, so that you can feel special.
My christian, bible thumping brother declares this a lot. However, when I told him about a peace ceremony I was going to he said "Make sure you are praying to the Right God!" :D I get you mean what you say, but a lot don't, fear keeps them from opening their minds to a lot of things.
 
From The Atlantic. As a Catholic I have the same thoughts and fears: religion is dying out, and there is nothing to replace it. Atheist may rejoice, but this is a big loss for society and culture:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...e-anthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

Forty million Americans have stopped attending church in the past 25 years. That’s something like 12 percent of the population, and it represents the largest concentrated change in church attendance in American history. As a Christian, I feel this shift acutely. My wife and I wonder whether the institutions and communities that have helped preserve us in our own faith will still exist for our four children, let alone whatever grandkids we might one day have.

This change is also bad news for America as a whole: Participation in a religious community generally correlates with better health outcomes and longer life, higher financial generosity, and more stable families—all of which are desperately needed in a nation with rising rates of loneliness, mental illness, and alcohol and drug dependency.
I think religion dying out is a Good Thing. The fact that it bothers you means your religious beliefs include not minding your own business, trying to control others, etc. It has nothing to do with you, you are free to have your beliefs but feeling sad that others don't is a sign of mental illness in my opinion. Like the disney stereo type of the nosey neighbor calling the police because a man she didn't know was invited into her neighbors house. Mind your self and don't worry about how or what others think. If it infringes on your somehow then change what you can, which will ultimately be your mind as you can't change anything about anyone else.
 
My christian, bible thumping brother declares this a lot. However, when I told him about a peace ceremony I was going to he said "Make sure you are praying to the Right God!" :D I get you mean what you say, but a lot don't, fear keeps them from opening their minds to a lot of things.
Every religious person keeps saying they believe in the Right God. Which makes me think there is no god. I can't prove there is no god, just as much as religious people can't prove there is a god. Pointing at a book and say read this, is no proof, just some text.
 
This is only meant to be an observation on my part.

According to the World Health Organization as of July of 2023, covid has killed 1,127,152 people in the U.S.

With over a million dead, this left thousands of children orphaned.

And since a parent died this left many families in hardship status.

Maybe people see a dark place with no way out and what ever religion you believe in may not be enough to help.
That's is really more a question for the Covid Conspiracy Theories thread.
 
As someone with no interest in public worship but holding a typically human, rather complicated personal collection of beliefs, superstitions and scepticism, I am moved to observe that what looks like atheism may be just apathy. :wink2:


Nobody knows what anyone else really believes.
People not forced by convention to attend church might be no less religious than those who go willingly.
 
I'm quite religious, in that I have a strong faith in my 'world-view' or concept of the Gods etc.
I have no problem with non-believers, which includes atheists, Christians, Muslims, whatever. They believe in their gods, I believe in mine.
I'm not obliged to change anyones mind. I can discuss things, but I am not 'in the business' to convert.

I see many organised religions being, well, organised fundamentally as a megacorporation - the aim is to become the only player in the game.
It's one thing to have a deep-held certainty that you have the right idea. Yup. Cool. Each to their own. It's another to deny choice or be the the dominant belief system.
And sometimes atheists - those that disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or Gods - can be as equally smug and agressively assertive in their convictions, and it takes on the fervour of a religious organisation.

"I don't believe in God!"
"Good for you. Fine. Moving on ..."
"You are all stupid in believing in one!"
"Okaaay. Fine. You do you, an' all."
"I'm a better person for not believing in God!"
"Er. Okay. That's your belief. I believe I'm a better person by my faith. But not better than you."
"You're delusional."
"Um. Maybe ..."
"Prove your God exists!"
"Prove they don't!"

I think, fundamentally, that any belief system is held largely to account for past ills, harm and sadness in society. Look at the stick the Catholic Church gets. I'm not denying it's occurrence - I've no pokers in that fire - but every breakaway or splinter-group of the Christian religion is tainted by scandal. Look at the hatred to Islam for the horrific actions of a minority of so-called 'believers'.
This attack on the faith - whichever it is - encourages a defensive stance.

No one has to believe in a supernatural entity. No one should be forced to accept a psychological world-view.
We should all be allowed to believe in anything or nothing, as long as it does no harm to anyone.
Demand dominance - even if you are well-meaning - and you're actually going aganst faith:
The truth as revealed to believers will overcome whatever happens to the believers.
If you whine about 'heresy' or insult to your God(s) then you are saying your God(s) are weak.

FFS.
GOD should be so certain in their existence, they can take a joke by a small section of the monkey-brains let lose on their creation.
 
I think religion dying out is a Good Thing. The fact that it bothers you means your religious beliefs include not minding your own business, trying to control others, etc. It has nothing to do with you, you are free to have your beliefs but feeling sad that others don't is a sign of mental illness in my opinion. Like the disney stereo type of the nosey neighbor calling the police because a man she didn't know was invited into her neighbors house. Mind your self and don't worry about how or what others think. If it infringes on your somehow then change what you can, which will ultimately be your mind as you can't change anything about anyone else.

I also get bothered when I hear parents are deciding not to vaccinate their children against serious communicable diseases.

This is not because I am nosy or 'mentally ill' (you really ought to have expressed that better), but because it certainly will 'affect' me in a variety of ways.

Elsewhere, my views on the death of religion in the west are on the thread linked below. It answers your point about the lack of regret among atheists; it's mostly because 'atheist' is a misnomer.

I would not claim that a native of a tropical island was 'against snow' if he had never experienced it and had only a vague second-hand conception of what it was. He certainly didn't arrive at the conclusion he was an anti-snowist; snow never featured in his life and had no place in his world view.

I might feel vaguely encouraged if 'the West' was becoming a community of atheists, even though I am not an atheist myself, because, as you say, it would indicate that they had engaged in some sense with the subject of religion and reached a personal judgment.

The truth, I am afraid, is not that 'we' are becoming a community of atheists, but that we're becoming a community of the ignorant. Our institutions do not teach philosophy or theology to the young and most of those born today will live and die without ever having considered their lives as a whole or the possibilities for what a human life can be: they will have simply been born, done some stuff, and died; emotions will have been experienced along the way, but there will have been no teleological drive to their existence, just a wander towards pleasure and safety and away from pain and danger.

I don't see many people throwing off shackles, just a lot of people forgetting what was a core mode of being for their ancestors.

Edit: I will add that the death of Christianity will be a long, long process that will still be continuing after we here are all dust. There will also likely be a few spasms of unexpected activity before it finally gives up the ghost.

https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/the-future-of-methodism.66628/#post-1913441
 
I also get bothered when I hear parents are deciding not to vaccinate their children against serious communicable diseases.

This is not because I am nosy or 'mentally ill' (you really ought to have expressed that better), but because it certainly will 'affect' me in a variety of ways.

Elsewhere, my views on the death of religion in the west are on the thread linked below. It answers your point about the lack of regret among atheists; it's mostly because 'atheist' is a misnomer.

I would never claim that a native of a tropical island was 'against snow' if he had never experienced it and had only a vague second-hand conception of what it was. He certainly didn't arrive at the conclusion he was an anti-snowist; snow never featured in his life and had no place in his world view.



https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/the-future-of-methodism.66628/#post-1913441
So are you saying you think "atheist" means "against god"? It doesn't, it is a reference to belief, not for or against anything. And maybe I could have worded what I said more politiely but I am honest and honesty sometimes has a sharp stick attached. If you felt poked then think about why. And I said My Opinion. We have a lot of mental illness running rampant in this 1st world british empire society and if it is pointed out, people get offended or feel it was personal, but it isn't. My opinion that some religious people are suffering from some mental illness does not exclude others I believe also are for the same reasons, just choosing different outlets. Anyone who keeps watch over others that they are not friends with and don't care about is mentally ill. Lots of people running around shouting that it is wrong to say this word or that word because of their bigotry is also a mental illness in my opinion. No one should be worried about people they don't know, unless there is a big disaster and those people need help. That is much different from being sad because you think someone else doesn't believe in your religion.

As for the choosing not to vaccinate children, how does that affect you unless you are a parent with school aged children or a teacher or have some other job interacting with other people's children?
 
So are you saying you think "atheist" means "against god"?

No.

...it is a reference to belief, not for or against anything.

It's against the view that one or multiple gods exist.

If you felt poked then think about why.

Your post generated private complaints to the moderators, but not one from me. I do, however, think there should be a high threshold for using the descriptor 'mentally ill' beyond the confines of clinic. Tactically, it's generally a fail, too; unless you've very precisely defined your terms, it comes across as hyperbole and tends to make those so labelled hostile and hence impervious to even one's better arguments.

As for the choosing not to vaccinate children, how does that affect you unless you are a parent with school aged children or a teacher or have some other job interacting with other people's children?

Two of your three categories apply to me, but more importantly:
  • As a taxpayer, I have to shoulder the burden of increased medical expenditure.
  • As a compassionate human, it upsets me to see people suffer—especially children—and I feel a moral duty to protect them.
  • As a member of society, I wish for a stronger society over a weaker one—which includes one permeated by dangerous preventable disease.
Turning back to religion and faith, however (since this was an analogy), it's clear that the existence and prevalence of faith has consequences at a level far beyond the individual because belief states strongly correlate with action selection. Hence, the waxing and waning of belief correlates with the waxing and waning of different behaviour patterns. This is how I (and you) are affected by the religious beliefs (and lack of beliefs) of others.

This works on both sides, of course: atheists very often desire not simply an acceptance of their own lack of belief, they favour societies in which religious beliefs are (variously) extirpated, marginalised or subject to supersession by secular laws and logic. At the same time, followers of religion frequently hope not only for a freedom to worship, but for societies in which their personal beliefs proliferate and inform the most important debates and decision-making processes in society.

The only difference is that the latter have been massively more successful for most of recorded history.
 
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Just a few weeks ago, one of the last Roman Catholic Schools in our area closed. I am sure it is because of rising educational costs and families being unable to afford the fees, but it is really a sign of the times changing, and so quickly.
Also the convent housing nuns was demolished, another sign of the times, as I do not see nuns in our area anymore. They used to be teachers in the schools and we would see them out in the community regularly.
When I was young, all the children and high schoolers went to Sunday Mass regularly - today I don't see too many people attending Mass. There is still attendance but not the crowds as in years past. The slow drift away from the Church, whichever denomination doesn't seem to matter, is obvious.
As young girls, we all went to Girl Scout meetings at one of the local Churches, a Polish National Catholic Church. We had weekly meetings, put on shows, had potluck suppers, contests and had wonderful field trips to other states. It was great fun and the Church was involved, which I don't believe is the case anymore.
Though I am not particularly religious, my parents took us to Mass every Sunday, sometimes to different denominations, and told us that when we became 18 we could make up our own minds as to what faith we would follow, if any.
And the Church was part of the core of the community at that time, which doesn't seem to be true today.
 
R J,

You said nicely on what I was thinking in that in today’s times with things being so expensive, so much outside pressures, and the changing makeup of families such as mixed families on the rise, can what ever you believe in fit in with all the changes.

Also, even though people could disagree, the covid epidemic did a lot of damage to social structures.

Religious organizations were strictly an on line affair for a long time.

I remember funerals during the epidemic that only the immediate family could attend.
 
I think, for my self, I respond better if I have a determined structure in my life that equates to a better way of living within a community, so,
I would like to see Children have the comforting knowledge that there is something larger looking after them while they are Children, and that all that they need to do to be a valued member of society, is within themselves already.

I would like to see levels of belief applied to children of varying ages, so that by the time that they reach young adulthood, certain structures have dropped away, leaving a less fuzzy belief system, with a focus on the sciences and ethics behind the wonders of this life, with an acknowledgement that certain adults who should know better are really just egocentric hedonists(?) who don't give a rats arse about anybody, other than themselves, and to be discriminating aware of them.

I would like to see all the ambiguity of religious texts made to be demonstrable to a court of societies peers, and not just to religions leaders, so that if they are found and deemed to be misleading and manipulative, then either clarified into a more simple text, or done away with.

I find that a belief system is rewarding to fall back on sometimes...like when you want to beat the stuffing out of someone because of what they've done adversely in society or to me and mine, and knowing that it won't help at all and that there are better ways to deal with the vexation of it all without any of that pious meek and mild stuff.

Anyway. If religion supplies any of the above, then the falling away of religion, in my book, is not something to look forward to.

Y.M.M.V.
 
I think we (humans) are all born with a set programme to believe in something - it's not so much a question of 'what,' it just is. (Maybe it's a kind of survival need we were pre-programmed with).
We can also have many types of belief, in what you think, what you see and you do happen to carve out for yourself in your own life. When you choose to 'group' believe in something, it just makes you're belief even stronger that you are believing in a 'sound truth' - but it still finishes up as just a belief, either as a sound belief, or a
misbelief or as a non-believer. But even a non-believer has has no option but to believe in something?
 
If nature abhors a vacuum, does humanity abhor random chance?
I suppose humanity has to fill it with something?
There again, where vacuums do exist, it must be the chance that it is a created part of nature!
 
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I am always a little surprised when scientists particularly in the fields of particle physics, cosmology, etc. say that the more they delve into it the closer they get to belief in a divine being (or words to that effect) yet if someone who doesn't (or won't) understand evolution talks about intelligent design they get very huffy. (Just for the record I'm not a creationist!)

The intricacies of modern physics and uncertainties over dark matter, etc. may well prove the existence of a devine being or beings, or it may be that we don't understand it yet.

What we don't seem to understand is the origin of anything. Evolution is pretty much proved (some of the mechanisms may need refinement - punctuated equilibrium, etc.) but the origin of life isn't. We also see ourselves as the pinnacle of evolution whereas arguably stromatolites are , look how long they've lasted. We cite the big bang as the origin of the universe but don't know what came before. I guess that until we can prove or at least come up with a mechanism for these origins we are still left with the possibility of god(s).

But most religions seem to be focussed on these gods intervening in our lives and punishing us for not following their rules, albeit they were probably written down by humans. I think Arthur C. Clarke said that because our species spends a long time being helpless and cared for by parents/adults we are pre disposed to belief in something more powerful and knowledgeable handing out rules, rewards and punishments. Perhaps that's the bit that's being lost for many of the reasons others have cited. Not a good thing unless there is a strong secular system to punish the lawbreakers.

I have no idea whether there is a god or gods and I envy those with faith for the comfort it gives them but I think it has to be personal experience so there is no point in them trying to convert me on the basis of their experience.

I'm probably not even agnostic, it may be possible to prove the existennce of god(s) but I honestly think we will wipe ourselves out before we prove anything one way or the other and that, in itself, may be the answer.

Sorry dribbling on a bit, does any of that make sense?:conf2:
 
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