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Before Columbus Sailed The Ocean Blue

Bilderberger said:
Basically, it was deemed impossible for African civilization to produce anything so advanced - it must have been the Egyptians, Phoenicians or, my favourite, good old Prester John.

All also credited for the Mayan civilisation.... Incredible isn't it? and you still see it in the workings of Hancock et al. truth is, if we hadn't completley destroyed the books, knowledge and social structure of these civilisations, we'd know a hell of a lot more about them.
 
And What Of...?

And what of those who say that mankind needed help from spacemen to build such impressive structures as the Great Pyramids at Giza? That always galls me. As if mere humans simply aren't enough, when in truth our history is replete with both horrors and wonders all stemming from ourselves.

It goes beyond mere racism into near-total misanthropy.

It's this sad self-doubt, self-negation, and self-hatred that prompts the cobblling of gods, too, both as exemplars of all we are supposedly not, and as object lessons, or mockeries, of all we are.
 
I saw an interview with Gene Roddenberry once, he was talking about the exact same thing, he summed it up nicely saying how the only way to see it, was that Human beings are clever and we work hard, nothing mystical about it :D
 
Some

Some human beings are clever and work hard, yes.

I'm also surprised at times that such attempts to steal our thunder on behalf of some half-baked space alien doesn't rile people more. You'd think they'd anger at being told they can't possibly have done this, that, or the other thing on their own, when in fact their ancestors did exactly that.
 
Re: Some

FraterLibre said:
Some human beings are clever and work hard, yes.

I'm also surprised at times that such attempts to steal our thunder on behalf of some half-baked space alien doesn't rile people more. You'd think they'd anger at being told they can't possibly have done this, that, or the other thing on their own, when in fact their ancestors did exactly that.

Pah. Most people are more concerned about the latest boob-tube "reality" program than what some other people did thousands of years ago. Only the scholarly and the lunatic fringe care about the past in any significant way.

Curmudgeonly yours,
JoeP
 
distractions

Quite true, you curmudgeon you. lol Most don't seem to care much about anything but the current distraction.

How else to explain things?
 
There's a two-page review of Menzies' book here

Highly critical, practically slagging it off, and only just stopping short of calling it a hoax! Can't help thinking a lot of people are just pissed off that an amateur uncovered stuff that was there all along!

Following much European publicity, the US edition was published earlier than first planned, and came out on Jan 7th.
 
Has anyone read that? been meaning to get hold of a copy, none of my Xmas hints for it got noticed :(
 
rynner said:
Highly critical, practically slagging it off, and only just stopping short of calling it a hoax! Can't help thinking a lot of people are just pissed off that an amateur uncovered stuff that was there all along!

“The extraordinary thing about it is that there is nothing new in my theory at all,” Menzies told Reuters in an interview ahead of his book’s Nov. 4 publication.


There have been numerous publications since the 1950s, many by reputable names, all claiming that Zheng He's fleet went a lot further afield than merely the African coast, and cultural parallels between people on both Pacific coastlines have been highlighted time and again without satisfactory explanation by the nay-sayers. (See Louise Levathes' book -1994 New York Times Notable Book of the Year, apparently- When China Ruled The Seas as a relatively recent example.) OK, we can accept central and south American cultures discovering how to build pyramids because it's the easiest big monument to build if you don't have concrete or structural steel to reinforce it, but why the obsession with jade on both sides of the Pacific? And why do some S. American "jaguar" statues share so few "jaguar" characteristics when they do show features that are common on Chinese lion statues?

(Levathes' book drew on official Ming histories, African, Arab and Indian texts, and surviving eyewitness accounts, as well as numerous publications by various modern historians, both western and oriental.)
 
rynner said:
There's a two-page review of Menzies' book here

Highly critical, practically slagging it off, and only just stopping short of calling it a hoax! Can't help thinking a lot of people are just pissed off that an amateur uncovered stuff that was there all along!

Following much European publicity, the US edition was published earlier than first planned, and came out on Jan 7th.

Actually Menzie's hypothesis has two significant problems:

1. The ships weren't gone from China long enough to circle the globe at the pace they are well established to have traveled. They certainly would have gone even slower on such a journey, since they had no idea what lay ahead of them.

2. At more than one time along the journey he claims they traveled it would have taken significantly longer to reach the next landfall than they had water supply on board their ships.

Basically, it didn't happen. The criticisms have nothing to do with the author's status, and everything to do with his research.
 
JoeP said:
2. At more than one time along the journey he claims they traveled it would have taken significantly longer to reach the next landfall than they had water supply on board their ships.

Basically, it didn't happen. The criticisms have nothing to do with the author's status, and everything to do with his research.

But as Menzies points out, they had de-salinization facilities on board and that was old tech to the Chinese of that period. The water 'issue' is not a completely valid criticsm.

That said, there are problems with some of his claims: mainly along the lines of so much of his them being dependent for corroboration on artefacts that have been 'lost' by the museums that were holding them, or upon archeology at sites that haven't been touched yet, as well as the odd leap of intuition that seems a bit tenuous.

But that said, there's no doubt about the fleet reaching Africa, and there's no doubt about them reaching Australia and the Pacific coast of the Americas. Believe it. It happened. It's well-documented, just not well-publicized.

In fact, so far (only bought it on Tuesday so I'm currently just about halfway through it) the only 'dodgy' claim he seems to be making are about parts of the fleet reaching the Caribbean and building the Bimini Road (altho' I must admit that I like his explanation of the 'road better than any others I've heard), and his assumption that part of the fleet charted Antartica based almost solely on his interpretation of the Piri Reis map. And there his flawed assumptions don't really affect his main case: that China reached the New World and Australia long before Europeans.

Uhm, think some of these posts need bumped into the 1421 thread in Notes and Queries.
 
Does anyone know anything about the Illinois "Burrow's Cave", I found this site by accident: http://www.illinoismysterycave.com/.

It's a high candidate for hoaxery, but apparently a cave was discovered containing egyptian, roman, phonecian, jewish and christian artefacts, as well as depictions of the Mississippi River from 2,000 years ago! Totally bonkers, and if true, an amazing find. If a hoax, an amazing one, with over 7,000 artefacts found so far, and rumours of ancient Mauritanian gold which ties into one guys theory that the artefacts are the library of a certain King Juba, whose son was murdered by Caligula! This story just gets weirder and weirder... Not to mention Burrow's himself, who apparently invites academics to the site, only to threaten to kill them!

Anyone heard anything to make me believe this incredible saga is even half true?

Note to mods: I notice that Sobriquet, who got into an argument with FraterLibre in this thread never returned to these boards after that post. Shame.
 
Hoax & A Pity

Dot - I've run across stories about this cave and its apparently crank owner / discoverer for years and, like you, find it so over-the-top as to beggar belief. One would think that there'd be at least some faint rumblings in legitimate archaeology were even a fraction of this true, so I tend to view it with impatience and consider it a hoax. Still, who knows?

As for Sobriquet, I've no memory of any of that; my cursor is set to rather narrow gauge these days.
 
FL - re Burrow's cave - I too assume it to be a fake, and the owner of the site (if it even exists) obviously has something to hide. Would be nice if there was some truth behind it - and interesting from an African-Amercian history standpoint too.

Any other African finds in the US?
 
Zygon said:
There have been numerous publications since the 1950s, many by reputable names, all claiming that Zheng He's fleet went a lot further afield than merely the African coast, and cultural parallels between people on both Pacific coastlines have been highlighted time and again without satisfactory explanation by the nay-sayers.

More on this subject:

Special Report 2/23/04

The Chinese Columbus?

Zheng He ran one of the greatest fleets of all time. Did he discover the New World?

By Caroline Hsu
In the graceful East Asian reading room at the Library of Congress, one can view a 21-foot-long map--a series of coastlines and Chinese place names traced in black ink on thin, almost translucent paper. This is the Wu Bei Zhi, a copy of the actual map used by Zheng He, the famed 15th-century Chinese explorer who made seven voyages from Asia to Africa at the height of Chinese maritime dominance.

...........

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040223/misc/23zheng.htm

Its a rather long 3 page article and I won't post it all (unless people want me to).

Emps
 
Explorer Madog 'never existed' Feb 27 2004

Darren Devine, The Western Mail

A CONTROVERSIAL new book has rubbished claims that a Welsh explorer Prince Madog discovered America hundreds of years before Christopher Columbus.

The story of the prince fleeing to America in about 1170 after his father King Owain's death unleashed a battle for the succession has held sway over popular imagination in Wales for centuries.

But Did Prince Madog discover America? claims the explorer did not even exist and attempts to credit him with finding America were simply made to deny Spain's claim to the country.

Author Michael Senior, from Glan Conwy, says it is "practically certain that there was no such historical personage as this Prince Madog".

He believes confusion over Madog's existence may have arisen from references in literature to another Madog.

This Madog was one of King Owain's followers and Mr Senior believes he may have been credited with feats he never actually accomplished - like leading an expedition to America.

Mr Senior, 63, who has written widely about the history of Wales said, "Things probably got attached to him as they did with people like King Arthur - lots of diverse stories became attached to one hero figure.

"I think Prince Madog is a representative of this idea of people who did exist and did go to America - this man simply stands for them.

"It's just they have given him a name."

The author also suggests Columbus was not even the first European to go to America.

"There were plenty of people there when the first Europeans arrived so you can't really say there was a discovery - it's misleading.

"The Vikings from Greenland got there about 1,000AD and there is archaeological evidence that they settled that is quite clear."

But Mr Senior does not altogether dismiss the story that Madog's descendants in America formed a tribe of Welsh-speaking, white-skinned Indians.

He says if his premise that Madog did not exist is wrong then such a tribe may well have existed.

very long link removed, as it's a 404 anyway - stu
 
Aleister6666 said:
Personally i hope Buchanan's predictions come to pass, just think in 200 years there may be no white, or black people left, only shades of brown. The end of racism the end of one source of conflict.:D

Can't read the rest of the thread till I respond to this. You think "racism" is REALLY based on "skin color?" There's not a whole lot of (physical) difference between most groups in the world who enjoy bombing and cutting each other up, yet on it goes. Elitist attitudes based more purely on physical features are fairly recent and unusual, but tribal feuds and bloody cultural/political wars are quite an ancient and enduring tradition among our species.

Now, if we were all black or Hispanic or Near Eastern, maybe everything would be as fluffed and dandy as, oh, say the Congo, Columbia, or Palestine.

Not meant to be rude, but the Ice-T "Let's **** for equality" theorem sounds very similar to the "natural healing herbs " schtick.

That said, I do enjoy the company of exotic women :D
 
As an American student of anthropology and linguistics, this topic fascinates me. A few points:

Just to clarify, Welsh (Cymru) and Gaelic (Gaelge/Ghaidlage) belong to different sub-branches of the same (Celtic) branch of a yet larger arterial language system (the vastly ancient Indo-European). Gaelic is felt to have developed for a longer period in Britain, since Welsh appears closer to ancient continental Celtic languages, and, expectedly, modern Breton in north western France.

It is becoming far less controversial to suggest that the earliest prehistoric settlers in the Americas were a diverse lot made up, at least, of various groups in Asia(including the traditional Siberian) and Oceana. There exist a number of skeletons which are essentially south east Asian in appearance, and the very oldest New World remains to date, from Brazil, are characteristically Austronesian. These people had boats too: hey, they got to Australia a long time ago, right?

A specific tool making tradition in early American prehistory is almost identical to those of contemporary Iberia and France. These artifacts are traditionally accredited to Siberian "land bridge" migrants. However, if this were true, one would expect them to resemble earlier Siberian traditions, those from which they presumably sprang, not European "Soultrean" models. To strengthen the case, these European-like artifacts first appear in the record in the EAST making their way across the continent. Hmmm indeed.

Then there are European-looking skeletons. Kennewick man is the usual suspect, though the individual is debatably more primitive Japanese or Polynesian than European (This point is difficult to make out from bones. He isn't Siberian/modern Indian for sure). A few anomalous events from native oral histories (some of which must have turned up in FT at some point) also exist which hint at Europeans in the New World. The most famous is the case of pale, redheaded "giants" who feuded with a tribe in the Southwest, only to be cornered and burned in a cave. Though the bones are convincing, stories of blond or redhaired people could at least possibly be attributed to recent evolutionary traits. "Racial" features such as skin tone or hair(especially red) can pop up in a short time period, and just perhaps these stories were about "regular" Indians who had these mutant traits (Europeans had to get them some how).

From sagas, it's fairly certain the Norse knew of Canadian natives, likely Inuit, whom they called "skraellings." If they could contact these groups in historical times, perhaps earlier voyages resulted in intermarriage. No citation on hand, but I have read several times of some odd DNA showing up in come native groups in uppermost America which appears to be pre-contact and European in origin.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Melungeons yet. They're at least obliquely Fortean in their own right. An apparently Spanish or Middle Eastern group situated in Cherokee country, they have been an anthropological mystery for decades. Theories abound, with dialect comparisons with Turkish and Arabic, speculations about Welsh descent (maybe some of you know Welshmen or ARE Welshmen; many of the rural Welsh look vaguely Semitic, a fact owing likely to quite ancient descent from Mediterranean groups, possibly the mound builders, and perhaps a touch of Roman from more recent times). Genetic tests seem to indicate Spanish or Portuguese descent, the Arab blood being indirect and reflecting that element in the Spanish population. This makes them slightly less romantic, being probable descendants of early Spanish explorers, but the tests aren't exactly conclusive. And the debate rages on.

I've wondered if I have some of this in my background myself, since my grandfather's very dark, curve-nosed, black haired family came from prime Melungeon territory. Unproven, but very likely. I suspect it might be Melungeon that Southerners mean when they trot out our little cultural UL about the "Cherokee great grandmother." Some people had Cherokee great grandmothers, but not alot since the Cherokee were effectively deported to the west before that time.

OK, finally and ever more vaguely, I noticed something pertinent while cateloging the Celtic words in modern English. The etymology for the word "pinguin" is split between a native name for the bird from South America and the tempting Welsh "pen gwyn" meaning "white head." Little coincidences are very common in comparative linguistics (Like the Malay word for numeral two "duo." Compare with Latin, Romance, and Germanic words) and must be recognized as such, but the overlap here is just confusing. I'm not sure where the put the word as far as my list, though I eventually concluded that it was indeed Welsh.

My aching fingers. Maybe I can turn this post in for grad credit. Remember that this is my field.
 
Vitrius said:
A specific tool making tradition in early American prehistory is almost identical to those of contemporary Iberia and France. These artifacts are traditionally accredited to Siberian "land bridge" migrants. However, if this were true, one would expect them to resemble earlier Siberian traditions, those from which they presumably sprang, not European "Soultrean" models. To strengthen the case, these European-like artifacts first appear in the record in the EAST making their way across the continent. Hmmm indeed.

Clovis seems to move from south (contintental U.S.) to north (Canada) but from east to west? You'd have to show me a map with dates.

The trouble with the Solutrean/Clovis connection is, and always has been, a little matter of 5,000 to 8,000 years. It can't be washed out, but among modern humans that's a long, long, long time to keep a tool form. The basic Clovis point is a thing of beauty and efficiency - so much so that a number of later points seem to return to its features time and again - and is just as likely to have developed several times as diffused. Calling a Clovis point a European-like artifact is overstating the case.

The "Welsh-speaking" Indians, btw, were the Mandans. They had coracles, too.
 
The trouble with the Solutrean/Clovis connection is, and always has been, a little matter of 5,000 to 8,000 years. It can't be washed out, but among modern humans that's a long, long, long time to keep a tool form.
I thought the point with the solutrean stuff was that the evidence for iberians travelling along the ice some 14000 years ago is growing increasingly strong as academics finally bring themselves to question the Clovis sacred cow. I think there is a long discussion of this in the Earth Mysteries section somewhere.

From sagas, it's fairly certain the Norse knew of Canadian natives, likely Inuit, whom they called "skraellings."
Skraellings literally means something like "wretches" doesn't it? Was this term used exclusively to describe the native americans? How did the vikings refer to the tribes of lappland and western siberia, who they would presumably have had more dealings with?

I think the penguin does derive from pen-gwyn, which I think was a welsh term for the great auk, which filled pretty much the same ecological niche in the northern hemisphere as penguins do in the south. Does anyone know when they are first described in the west?
 
Fastinating.

Penguins, indeed an old name for the great auk, a bird with white patches on its face. (unlike southern penguins) a bird recoreded from the outer isles of GB, iceland, but I do believe the main colony was Funk island off Newfoundland. The name is mentioned in Hakluyts voyages as bestowed upon the birds by none other than Prince Madoc himself! (but there is no reason why he couldnt have met the birds in wales or ireland.)

In Rudiyard Kiplings `Captain Courageous` (one of his best books, IMHO, but sadly little known. Please do read if you find a copy) there is a gaelic speaker named McDonald from Nova Scotia, he has the second sight. He is decidedly african...

(I have met dusky clansmen too...)

lots of people purportedly got to the new world before Columbus. The Arabs and Chinese certainly were aware of a western continent. (but that could have been theoretical, same as australia used to be before it was discovered.)

certainly some native americans had beards (and Kennedwick man must have if he was related to the Ainu...BTW, IMHO Ainu have never looked very european to me...)
 
The great auk was common in coastal Britain and scandinavia - the kind of area. It ranks alongside the dodo in the list of extinctions due to human intervention, but is a lot less well known. I believe the last one was executed for witchcraft.
 
Partialy due to hunting, yes, but the real nail in the coffin was the destruction of its last islet by undersea eruptions. a place with gently shelving beaches and protected by savage currents. Most birds died or were scattered, and the handful remaining tried to make a home on a new rock, easy of access for humans and rising sheer from the water.

One of the last was executed as a witch on St Kilda, a storm blew up, and the silly bird was busy screaming its head off. (most odd behavior in a great auk, normaly very quiet birds.)

Around that time comes a tale from Lundy of the `King of the Gulimots`
 
New row over who discovered America

Mar 9 2004


Aled Blake, The Western Mail


THE row over who discovered America has erupted again with claims that it was not Christopher Columbus nor even a Welsh prince 400 years earlier.

But historians are claiming that the true winner of the race to America was Welsh, and was a prince. But they say it happened in the sixth century, not the 12th.

Alan Wilson and Baram Blackett , who are leading experts on King Arthur, say the South Walian prince Madoc Morfran sailed in 562AD and made the discovery.

Madoc made his journey after a comet hit the Earth in the 500s, which Welsh scientists say caused famine and disease during that century.

It throws into doubt the academic theory which says another Madoc, the son of Owen Gwynedd, sailed to North America in 1170. It also predates Columbus's voyage in 1492.

Mr Wilson, from Cardiff, and Mr Blackett, from Newcastle, who have published five books on Welsh ancient history, claim British-style hill forts exist in Ohio, and that Welsh became integrated into Native American languages.

They say their research is backed up by records of Native American history which tell of a race of white men arriving in America around that time, as well as discoveries of Caucasian-like skeletons around Ohio.

Mr Wilson said, "There are old-style Welsh hill forts around the Ohio River valley that are patterned as they are in Britain.

"They have a lot of inscriptions out there, carved in caves and on artifacts which are in coelbren, the old Welsh alphabet mainly recorded in South-East Wales.

"The idea is that Madoc did go to America; the question then is, 'Which Madoc?'

"These voyages are described as mystical. There was a strange belief in the 19th century that the ancient British believed in another world. But that was what the Spanish called the New World."

Mr Wilson believes Madoc sailed across the Atlantic from Milford Haven, arriving in Newfoundland and sailing down the coast along Massachusetts and then around Florida.

The Welsh explorers then sailed to the Gulf of Mexico and joined the Mississippi River before continuing along the Ohio River and settling in Kentucky.

Mr Wilson said, "We are working with the Americans on this and what they are saying is the ditches around the mounds have been slowly filled in and they are getting down to the original level of the ditches where sixth century material is coming out.

"There is so much evidence. What we are saying is that this should be looked at.

"Madoc came back after 10 years, he then describes in well-known poetry this place he discovered.

"It is no good dismissing it as fairy tales, it must be done as clinically and honestly as we can.

"We are not jumping up and down and saying this should be believed straightaway, but there is very strong evidence. It is quite a story.

"Everybody forgets the Native American history which says a nation of white men arrived."

Astronomers at Cardiff University this year announced that the cause of poor crops and starvation in the 6th Century was a comet hitting the Earth.

Mr Wilson said Mr Blackett and he had made the discovery in the 1980s.

The comet caused a massive explosion in the upper atmosphere.

Debris from the giant blast enveloped the earth in soot and ash, blocking out the sunlight and causing the extremely cold weather - as would happen after an all-out nuclear war.

Mr Wilson added, "The affect of the massive catastrophe caused by debris from a comet falling on Britain in 562 ADcalls for a re-writing of British history."

For more information, log on to http://www.realhistoryonline.com.

link
 
Others

Further evidence that we simply don't know enough yet to understand our own past, let alone what's going on now.
 
Yet another New World traveler

Ill just start this off.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ancient map at core of new debate

A University of Minnesota library treasure is cited as evidence that Chinese explorers reached the Americas first.

BY KERMIT PATTISON

Pioneer Press


Carol Urness stood over the 580-year-old map and pondered an ancient mystery.

Spread out before her was one of the prize holdings of a rare map collection at the University of Minnesota: a navigational chart hand-painted on a piece of animal skin in 1424 by Venetian cartographer Zuane Pizzigano. Urness swept her hand from the coastline of Europe westward across the Atlantic to a cluster of mysterious islands on what was then the far side of the world known to European explorers.

"There's been a lot of scholarship done on these islands," said Urness, curator emeritus at the James Ford Bell Library at the University of Minnesota. "The trouble is we don't know whether they represent actual lands or mythical lands."

Now a best-selling book claims to have solved the mystery, and the Pizzigano map has become the most talked-about item in the 25,000-piece collection of the Bell Library.

In the book "1421: The Year China Discovered America," British author Gavin Menzies cites the chart as evidence that Chinese explorers reached the Americas 70 years before Columbus and circumnavigated the globe a century before Magellan. The book claims that fleets of Chinese junks commanded by the eunuch admirals of Emperor Zhu Di explored and mapped the globe decades before their European counterparts.

Menzies, a retired submarine commander from the Royal Navy, said he began his quest after stumbling upon the Pizzigano chart.

"The wintry plains of Minnesota started me on my research," he wrote. "It was not necessarily the first place you would think of to discover a document with such profound implications, but the James Ford Bell Library at the University of Minnesota has a remarkable collection of early maps and charts, and one in particular had attracted my attention."

The Pizzigano chart shows a cluster of four islands on the far side of the Atlantic with the names Satanazes, Antilia, Saya and Ymana. Menzies pondered a question that already had perplexed generations of scholars: What were these islands?

He concluded that Antilia and Satanazes were the Caribbean islands Puerto Rico and Guadeloupe. But who had surveyed them? After all, the map was produced 70 years before Columbus' first voyage to the Americas.

Menzies embarked on a multiyear research project that arrived at a radical conclusion: Chinese treasure fleets made voyages in the early 15th century to North and South America, Greenland, Antarctica, Australia and New Zealand. Menzies believes that Confucian court officials destroyed the records of these voyages when China turned inward and isolated itself from the outside world.

Yet he asserts that some of the map information found its way to Europe, where it guided explorers such as Columbus, Vasco da Gama, Magellan and Cook.

"They all knew they were following in the footsteps of others," he wrote, "for they were carrying copies of the Chinese maps with them when they set off on their own journeys into the 'unknown.' "

The book has made best-seller lists and been published in 15 languages in 63 countries. Yet it also has drawn criticism and some historians have faulted the book for making grandiose claims on limited evidence.

"Menzies has yet to make a compelling case," wrote John Noble Wilford in the New York Times Book Review.

"To lump together all the assorted findings, most of undetermined dates and provenance, and argue that much of this exploration was accomplished in one sweep is an incredible stretch."

The furor brought unaccustomed attention to where the search began: the James Ford Bell Library. The staff has received inquiries from around the world and television crews from Japan and England have come seeking interviews and footage of the Pizzigano map.

"His theory is just one theory in a sea of theories," said assistant curator Susan Stekel Rippley. "It's just the one that's been very heavily marketed and hit the best-seller list. That doesn't necessarily give it more weight."

The James Ford Bell Library is tucked away on the fourth floor of the Wilson Library on the West Bank campus of the University of Minnesota. Visitors step into rarefied atmosphere that looks more like the study of a manor house with antique European furniture, carved wood panels, fireplace and chandelier.

The nucleus of the library was the private collection of James Ford Bell, founder of General Mills and former university regent who donated 600 books and an endowment in 1953. Today the collection contains 2,500 maps, 2,500 manuscripts and 20,000 rare books produced between 1400 and 1800 focusing on European exploration and trade.

The holdings include a collection of portolan charts, a class of navigational maps of the Mediterranean and Atlantic produced between 1300 and 1500. Only about 100 portolan charts survive worldwide, three of them at the Bell Library.

Urness, the curator emeritus, stood over a table with the three vellum portolan charts spread out before her. They included the 1424 chart created by Pizzigano, a Venetian serving the Portuguese; a 1466 chart by Petrus Roselli of Majorca; and a 1489 chart by Albino de Canepa of Genoa. She said the three maps are among only 17 surviving portolan charts showing the cluster of mysterious islands west of Europe.

"Some people think it's Newfoundland, Florida or Formosa," Urness said. "You can make arguments. But we don't have enough to really be certain."

Urness said Menzies did not actually visit the Bell Library, but did his research by correspondence and by studying a reproduction of the map. Urness said she was impressed by the author's initial research on the islands but startled by his subsequent claims about China.

Although she read an early draft and is thanked in the acknowledgments, Urness does not endorse the more spectacular claims of "1421" and expresses amazement at the publicity it has generated. She voices skepticism about such claims as Chinese explorers sailing huge ships through the ice of the Northeast Passage.

"It made a lot of academics uneasy because it cuts across everything, Chinese history, European history," said Urness. "But it kind of woke everybody up, so I kind of like that. Instead of being completely settled in one path, you at least look."
 
Kensington Runestone

Last update: April 8, 2004 at 6:17 AM

Kensington Runestone looking more like a fake

Peg Meier, Star Tribune
April 8, 2004RUNE0408

Scholars who believe the Kensington Runestone is a 19th-century prank -- and not concrete evidence that Norsemen beat Columbus to America by 100-plus years -- say they have found the smoking gun to prove it.

The latest in the century-old Minnesota controversy came in documents written in 1885 by an 18-year-old Swedish tailor named Edward Larsson. He sometimes wrote in runes -- an ancient Scandinavian language that differs from the English alphabet. But Larsson's runes were not the usual runes used over the centuries.

The scholars contend that parts of his documents seem to be written in a secret runic alphabet used by tradesmen in Sweden in the late 1800s, rather like codes that tramps have used over time to leave secret messages for each other.

Swedish linguists happened upon Larsson's documents recently and found that his writing corresponds to pieces of the Kensington Runestone inscription. They say that the journeymen's code did not exist in medieval times, when the Kensington Runestone is purported to have been carved.

Kensington Runestone
Minnesota Tourist Bureau

"My opinion is this once again nails down the case against the Kensington Runestone," said Michael Michlovic, professor of anthropology and chairman of the Department of Anthropology and Earth Science at Minnesota State University Moorhead.

"This new evidence is really devastating. It comes unexpectedly and from a collection of old letters that have nothing to do with the Kensington Runestone."

The Runestone's origin has been hotly debated in Minnesota and beyond since 1898. It was then that a Swedish-American farmer named Olof Ohman said he found a large stone tablet wrapped in the roots of a poplar tree. The tree was in his farm field at Kensington, near Alexandria, Minn. A runic inscription on the stone describes a massacre of 10 members of an exploration party of Swedes and Norwegians in central Minnesota in the year 1362.

For more than a century, nonbelievers in the inscription's authenticity have said Ohman or his friends carved it as a joke on scholars.

Meanwhile, advocates insist that the Runestone proves that Nordic explorers were in west-central Minnesota in 1362.

Believers in the stone's authenticity say the new evidence doesn't harm their case. Scott Wolter is a St. Paul geologist who has extensively studied the stone. The inscription has weathered for more than 200 years, his research shows, and therefore the stone could not have been carved by jokesters in the late 1800s. Wolter said the skeptics' reliance on the Larsson documents is "another example of people making snap decisions. They've made up their minds and went looking for evidence for it."

The missing link?

The Kensington Runestone was displayed at a museum in Stockholm, Sweden, last fall and examined there by scholars.

Meanwhile, Tryggve Skold of Finland, a retired professor of Scandinavian languages who had studied Larsson's papers, heard a radio interview about the Runestone. Intrigued, he compared Larsson's runes with those on the Kensington stone.

"The resemblance was striking," said Henrik Williams, a runic specialist in Sweden, in an e-mail making the rounds among Runestone skeptics.

Williams previously had been on the fence about whether the Runestone was really carved by Norsemen. The odd runes had puzzled him. In his assessment, he stated that earlier he repeatedly had ruled out the likelihood of finding a missing link to explain them. "Boy, was I wrong," he wrote, insisting the missing link surfaced in the Larsson papers.

Following the journeyman system of the time, Larsson had walked around Sweden to train with master tailors. He was a musician, and most of his papers were handwritten music scores, but he also left books, letters, farm documents and pictures. The runes are his copies of alphabets -- worksheets more than letters. His family donated the collection to a Swedish linguistics and folklore institute.

Quite a showpiece

To Williams, it is inconceivable that the runes on the rock in Minnesota could have survived in Sweden for 500 years with little variation; languages live and change over time. However, Williams said, it is very likely that some kind of secret runes were known in the late 1800s both to Larsson and to Ohman and other Swedish immigrants to Minnesota.

Williams wrote that he can't say for sure who carved the Kensington stone, but claimed it certainly wasn't created in the 1300s.

To Williams, Alexandria may no longer bill itself as "the birthplace of America," but the Runestone Museum in Alexandria "still possesses a remarkable showpiece. ... Although I personally have to admit a certain feeling of loss at the realization that the mystery of the Kensington Runestone is solved, I am also glad to have learned so much in the process and to have gotten to know so many nice people. I realize that not everyone will be convinced we have reached the solution, but in my mind this matter is resolved."

To Michael Michlovic at MSU Moorhead, the charm of the Runestone remains. He finds it incredible that Ohman, a largely self-taught immigrant, created a hoax that has lived for almost 106 years.

While he has no doubts the rock was carved in the 1800s, not the 1300s, Michlovic guesses that believers won't give up.

"Proof has been established before," he said. In 1977, it was revealed that a friend of Ohman's announced on his deathbed in the 1920s that the inscription was a hoax. "That didn't convince people," Michlovic said. And two years ago a book by the Smithsonian Institution forthrightly stated that the Runestone is "universally considered a hoax by scholars today."

Stay tuned, Michlovic said. There's bound to be more coming.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1557/4711183.html

NOTE: This post was copied elsewhere to seed a separate thread on the Kensington Runestone:

Kensington Runestone (Minnesota)
https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/kensington-runestone-minnesota.30456/
 
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