Conspiracy Theories & Democracy

INT21

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If enough people in very high places want something to be hidden then they can spin the facts into it being a conspiracy. Then the people who do realise what has actually happened are ridiculed.

An old tactic.
 

dr wu

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If enough people in very high places want something to be hidden then they can spin the facts into it being a conspiracy. Then the people who do realise what has actually happened are ridiculed.

An old tactic.
Can you give some examples....something recent..? A true 'conspiracy'...?

btw...When I think of 'conspiracy theory'...I think of the weirder shite...like moon hoax, Diana, 911 towers, alien overlords shape shifters...etc....those are not very credible imho.
 
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INT21

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I agree with your list of 'improbable', except for part of the 911 incident.
 
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Ascalon

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Can you give some examples....something recent..? A true 'conspiracy'...?

btw...When I think of 'conspiracy theory'...I think of the weirder shite...like moon hoax, Diana, 911 towers, alien overlords shape shifters...etc....those are not very credible imho.
A good recent example was the use of a vaccine programme to track down Osama bin Laden.

With access to the programme's data from a local official, the CIA were able to narrow down locations and through surveillance, figure out which site to target.

So, this was evidence of a real conspiracy for a specific purpose hidden behind a genuine public health initiative. And it has resulted in a deep distrust of such programmes that is now having a damaging effect for public health in many countries.
 

dr wu

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A good recent example was the use of a vaccine programme to track down Osama bin Laden.

With access to the programme's data from a local official, the CIA were able to narrow down locations and through surveillance, figure out which site to target.

So, this was evidence of a real conspiracy for a specific purpose hidden behind a genuine public health initiative. And it has resulted in a deep distrust of such programmes that is now having a damaging effect for public health in many countries.
Ok...how is that the same type of 'conspiracy' we are taking about..? There are bizarre conspiracies then there are 'conspiracies'....as you pointed out for a good reason.
 

AlchoPwn

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Can you give some examples....something recent..? A true 'conspiracy'...?
btw...When I think of 'conspiracy theory'...I think of the weirder shite...like moon hoax, Diana, 911 towers, alien overlords shape shifters...etc....those are not very credible imho.
There are a number of genuine conspiracies out there:
The US Government poisoned alcohol during prohibition as a means to stop people consuming it.

Edith Wilson became the Defacto President when Woodrow became ill. MKULTRA unethical mind control research.

The Gulf of Tonkin Incident was fake. Canadian Govt tries to develop "Gaydar". The racist and highly unethical Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment.

Operation Popeye. US planned to commit domestic terrorism and blame Cuba. The GM Streetcar conspiracy.

Yeah, that'll do. There are plenty of others.
 

Yithian

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I do sympathise with dr wu's position.

The threshold for declaring something a 'conspiracy theory' in the electronic age seems to be 'somebody somewhere said it could be true', not that there is evidence that there could be an occult explanation for the ostensible facts.
 

AlchoPwn

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I do sympathise with dr wu's position.The threshold for declaring something a 'conspiracy theory' in the electronic age seems to be 'somebody somewhere said it could be true', not that there is evidence that there could be an occult explanation for the ostensible facts.
If by occult you mean hidden, as opposed to supernatural, then yes, I agree.
 

dr wu

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Again..as I said above...I was referring to 'bizarro' conspiracies being touted by the nutter fringe and not ones that have occurred due to military reasons, etc. By definition those happen everyday since various govt agencies don't share their daily activities with us.
 

AlchoPwn

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Again..as I said above...I was referring to 'bizarro' conspiracies being touted by the nutter fringe and not ones that have occurred due to military reasons, etc. By definition those happen everyday since various govt agencies don't share their daily activities with us.
Have you read some of these conspiracies? Not "bizarro" enough for you? I would have thought that MKULTRA on its own would have been sufficiently bizarre to meet all your criterea. How much more bizarre does it have to get? MKULTRA being run by Crossdressing Yetis and Jesuits on behalf of the milk marketing board of Chicago?
 

dr wu

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Have you read some of these conspiracies? Not "bizarro" enough for you? I would have thought that MKULTRA on its own would have been sufficiently bizarre to meet all your criterea. How much more bizarre does it have to get? MKULTRA being run by Crossdressing Yetis and Jesuits on behalf of the milk marketing board of Chicago?
I'm very aware of MKULTRA...that's an old one well talked about. Yetis and Jesuits...? That's a new take n it.
LOL....
 

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If there is an overarching conspiracy threatening overall control, may I say it looks like nothing but just a bunch of chaos looking like there’s no evidence of any control at all. Just a bunch of humans generally fucking things up without the need for supervised intervention.
To the controlling elite I’d like to say ‘sort your own shit out before you start fucking with us’.
Thank you.
 

Ascalon

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Again..as I said above...I was referring to 'bizarro' conspiracies being touted by the nutter fringe and not ones that have occurred due to military reasons, etc. By definition those happen everyday since various govt agencies don't share their daily activities with us.
I take your point, but what I'm highlighting is that there are real, recent examples of actual conspiracies which can get mingled into the milieu the more bizarre.

The Bin Laden take down operation actively fuelled the antivaccine movement who used it as justification that vaccine programmes are actually just a method of either population control or manipulation. So the central aim of the conspiracy was lost to a mere strand of the overall that has had a far more lasting effect.

This shows that real conspiracies, when they come to light, can contribute to the growth and development of the wilder fringe as they are taken as tacit proof of more speculative end of the spectrum.
 

Ascalon

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Actually, just as an aside, I saw something delicious on that Twitter machine recently.

A young ER doctor in the US was relating his exacerbating exchange with an apparently educated woman who presented with her son for a minor injury, but proudly declared the child was unvaccinated.

After a lengthy exchange where the medic could not make the woman see sense, he related the episode to his long experienced consultant.

The consultant said he had found better traction by asking antivaccers if they thought that undermining faith in vaccines might not be a Sino-Russian plot to undermine the general health of the US, thus rendering it unable to resist their economic might?

The young doctor went back and asked the question of the mother, over which they had a length discussion as the child got his shots.

Might be apocryphal, but still a giggle.
 

AlchoPwn

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If there is an overarching conspiracy threatening overall control, may I say it looks like nothing but just a bunch of chaos looking like there’s no evidence of any control at all. Just a bunch of humans generally fucking things up without the need for supervised intervention.
To the controlling elite I’d like to say ‘sort your own shit out before you start fucking with us’.
Thank you.
Hear hear. I'd like to second this motion and put a subsidiary motion to enter into correspondence with the appropriate crew of hidden global influencers to that effect.
 

Cochise

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There might be some truth to that, but most conspiracy theorists just talk about it endlessly (like we do here) and never do anything about it.
Just because a madman believes in something mad is no reason to blame the 'something mad' for their actions.

Peter Hitchens believes that the vast majority of mass murderers in modern times are habitual cannabis users.

For me that doesn't mean cannabis itself is to blame, it is just that, while we understand that overindulgence in alcohol can lead to violence, we haven't as a society got our head round over indulgence in cannabis can also lead to even greater violence (especially in combination with prescription drugs)

Bearing in mind the strength of cannabis is uncontrolled, we have the equivalent of people regularly consuming 120 proof vodka over years and then we wonder why they can no longer control themselves? And unfortunately because cannabis isn't a depressant they will have the energy to carry out a somewhat pre planned attack whereas an alcoholic would probably pass out after battering a single person.
 

dr wu

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I'm a bit surprised that no one has mentioned a 'Deep Sate' conspiracy to get Trump...I mean that seems to be his mantra.
If such a thing is real...who are the players , where do they meet, and how long have they been in cahoots with each other..?
;)
 

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I'm a bit surprised that no one has mentioned a 'Deep Sate' conspiracy to get Trump...I mean that seems to be his mantra.
Ah yes, Deep Sate... a point when all your dreams and desires have been fulfilled to your complete satisfaction and you can lie back and relax.
 

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marhawkman

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Heh, as one person said: "Why be a public official, when it's more profitable to sit in the shadows?" Of course you're gonna have people with massive political influence that aren't elected officials. One of the allegations about Obama was that has was a full on patsy who didn't even say a single thing in public without consulting his backers.
 

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Heh, as one person said: "Why be a public official, when it's more profitable to sit in the shadows?" Of course you're gonna have people with massive political influence that aren't elected officials. One of the allegations about Obama was that has was a full on patsy who didn't even say a single thing in public without consulting his backers.
Obama seemed to come from nowhere, very quickly. He must have had very powerful people behind him.
 

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Ah yes, Deep Sate... a point when all your dreams and desires have been fulfilled to your complete satisfaction and you can lie back and relax.
If we replaced 'Deep State' with 'Permanent Unelected Bureaucracy' and recalled that all it takes to comprise a conspiracy is two or more people working in secret to achieve an unethical goal, I'd say that there was almost certainly such a thing going on.

It's that word 'deep', with its connotation of men in black, cold-war spies and cabals of Illuminati in smoke-filled rooms, that makes it feel silly.
 

marhawkman

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Obama seemed to come from nowhere, very quickly. He must have had very powerful people behind him.
Yeah, urban planner to senator, but doesn't even finish a term as senator before running for Pres? very strange.
 

AlchoPwn

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I'm a bit surprised that no one has mentioned a 'Deep Sate' conspiracy to get Trump...I mean that seems to be his mantra. If such a thing is real...who are the players , where do they meet, and how long have they been in cahoots with each other..?;)
Seriously? The way I understand it, if the Deep State hasn't sent in a lone crazed gunman to deal with Trump yet, given they way he has betrayed US interests to Russia, I am beginning to doubt if the Deeps State even exists. Where is the Deep State? You'd think that Trump was damaging their interests, but they have failed to act. Or perhaps Trump is pushing their long term totalitarian agenda nicely? IDK. Perhaps he's a useful distraction?
 
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dr wu

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If we replaced 'Deep State' with 'Permanent Unelected Bureaucracy' and recalled that all it takes to comprise a conspiracy is two or more people working in secret to achieve an unethical goal, I'd say that there was almost certainly such a thing going on.

It's that word 'deep', with its connotation of men in black, cold-war spies and cabals of Illuminati in smoke-filled rooms, that makes it feel silly.
Exactly......there is no conspiracy' of deep state people' meeting in secret to get Drumpf or anyone else.
 

dr wu

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Seriously? The way I understand it, if the Deep State hasn't sent in a lone crazed gunman to deal with Trump yet, given they way he has betrayed US interests to Russia, I am beginning to doubt if the Deeps State even exists. Where is the Deep State? You'd think that Trump was damaging their interests, but they have failed to act. Or perhaps Trump is pushing their long term totalitarian agenda nicely? IDK. Perhaps he's a useful distraction?
IMHO..there is no deep state....it's just another talking point by those who want to distract us.
There is no 'secret group' out to get Drumpf. As Yithian pointed out there is always a Bureaucracy in place in the govt but they are not meeting in some dark back room somewhere.
 

marhawkman

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Exactly......there is no conspiracy' of deep state people' meeting in secret to get Drumpf or anyone else.
Also the Democrats are bad at secrecy. Hilary had an off-the-books semi-official email server, it gets subpoenaed by a Federal judge. They rigged their primary to give Hilary the nomination, everyone finds out before the primary is over. Then they vow to impeach Trump if he gets elected. Oh hey, it took them years to get there, but they finally got around to it.

We don't have their meeting notes, but that seems to be because they've stopped writing those down. :p
 
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