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CUBA

"maybe the still running vendeta agaisnt Cuba has somthing to do with the long memeories of the Mafia and its intimate government relationships"

It's deeper and darker than that - Cuban-Americans have been very active in the US intelligence world (I believe the Watergate burglars were Cuban) and they do hold a grudge - and they can't go back to Cuba until Castro goes.

There's an interesting museum in Havana on all the attempts the destabilise the country as assassination attempts on Castro - everything from bombmaking gear to a bit from a U-2 spyplane - which shows the scale of things. It's amazing the country has lasted.
 
There are huge instances of human right abuse on Cuba, mainly around the Guantanamo Bay area I believe.

I've got a lot of admiration for the country and its people. They've withstood forty-odd years of pettiness from the US and still haven't given in. And yeah, as far as I know they have one of the highest rates of literacy in the entire world, not just the developing one.

Unfortunately, a crash in the price of sugar, one of the main exports, is causing some problems about now.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when Castro dies, a new Grenada, anyone?
 
jay72 said:
A U.S. invasion would be a public relations disaster for the States, further demonizing the U.S. in the eyes of world opinion, further isolating her politically. Most of the governments in Latin America today are socialist/left-of-center, and have good relations with Cuba. A U.S. invasion of Cuba would not sit well with them.
But it would get the government the crucial Latin Mafia vote in Florida.

I think Castro is smart enough to realise that his passing will be difficult for Cuba, if only because of what the US might try to do. To that end, he ought to be sorting out the post Castro power-structure now, to avoid problems later.
 
I have read very little about Cuba, but I always get the impression, that though they are not rich, they are not teribbly off.

Better off than many in this world

And Castro, if he is a villain, then he must be one of the nicest villains....

---------------------
Is it true that US citizens are arrested and imprisoned if they go on holiday there?
 
Homo Aves said:
So you mean Cuba is an Ideological threat???

To the US, yes. Cuba is living proof that a socialist state can work even when it's been put under such pressure by its superpower neighbour.
 
"I suppose the official line is still revolutionary communism; Che Guevara and Fidel are national heros, remember. "

It's a very soft form of communism, and a far cry from the centralised Soviet model. However, Fidel is trying to roll back the dollarisatioin he introduced a few years back in which the dollar was made legal (lots of them around) and trying to switch to Euros etc.

Che is the big hero, his face is everywhere, Fidel is much lower key.
There are undoubtedly human rights abuses, but for a country which has essentially been on a war footing for 40 years it's in astomishingly good shape.

Economically it's rubbish (concentrating on one commodity was not a good idea) but doing well in other ways. Even in economic terms though, when you compare Cuba with its neighbours - Dominican Republic? Haiti??
- it looks good.

Invasion next year then... :(
 
i have just returned from Cuba , a great country in my opinion .

Yes life is tough there , but there is no homelessness , no one goes hungry , healthcare is free and it has a hundred percent litteracy with fantastic education for all. Dollar has been replaced with the convertible peso. Unfotunately Cuba`s tourist industry is creating a double economy
where everyone wants to be a bell boy or waiter because they get tips , Doctors and the like get paid around 20 dollars a month , you can maybe pick this up in tips in a couple of days.
 
"there is no homelessness " - I've always wondered about this - what happens to homeless people in Cuba? In this country, a lot of homeless don't like hostels because the of the rules, one suspects in Cuba they don't get the choice...
 
Wembley said:
"there is no homelessness " - I've always wondered about this - what happens to homeless people in Cuba? In this country, a lot of homeless don't like hostels because the of the rules, one suspects in Cuba they don't get the choice...

Well i think they have a far greater sense of community in Cuba very old people tend to live with their families and they kind of look after each other a lot more than most countries so maybe there are not many people homeless because of this and not because of the goverments efforts.
However there is no Homelessness but there is a lack of decent housing
so things tend to be quite crowded.
lovely people , lovely place , regardless of what you think of the government.
 
No Fidel, no problem?
Andrew Stephen

Published 12 February 2007

Miami is planning a great party, and Bush's people expect dancing in the streets of Havana. But few others in Washington believe Castro's death would suddenly change Cuba.


The wild party is already planned. CBS News has rented out a shop on Calle Ocho, the main drag in Little Havana, Miami, from which to anchor coverage of dancing in the streets. "No Fidel, No Problem", say the bumper stickers. Not just Little Havana, but now the entire city of Miami is planning a great party and concert at the Orange Bowl stadium to celebrate Fidel Castro's death. Tomás Regalado, the city's commissioner, explains: "He represents everything bad that has happened to the people of Cuba for 48 years. There is something to celebrate."

Fly a thousand miles back up north to Washington, however, and the mood is sober. Winds of change may be blowing through the new Democratic Congress, but I can find nobody in DC - in the Bush administration or Congress - who thinks that Fidel's apparently imminent demise will suddenly transform Cuba itself or markedly change US policy towards Cuba. The CIA has, after all, been predicting Castro's death from cancer since 1979.

I spoke, for example, to Jeff Flake, a highly influential 44-year-old Republican congressman from Arizona who has been to Cuba five times, and who in December led the biggest US congressional delegation - four Republicans and six Democrats - to Havana since 1959. Flake is an independent-minded Mormon unafraid to buck the party line. "What was striking, you know," he told me, "was that [the Bush administration's] policy has always been that as soon as Fidel goes, there'll be riots in the streets, people demanding free and fair elections, and we'll have a sea change.

"But anybody who's spent any time in Cuba realises that's not the case at all. That's surprising to people here who believe the administration's line. But there aren't riots in the streets, and to all intents and purposes they [the Cubans] have made the transition." The Bush administration, he says, "is going to have to be dragged kicking and screaming" if its intransigence towards Cuba is to change. Flake and the Democratic congressman Charlie Rangel have just jointly introduced a bill to lift the "travel ban" - supposedly free Americans can still be sent to prison for travelling to Cuba unless they fit into specific categories and are granted government permission - but that, so far, is the most revolutionary change on the books.

Succession scenario

Raú Castro has twice asked Washington for talks since he took over from his brother Fidel last July, but the hubristic Bush refrain has been all too familiar and potentially no less catastrophic than it has been elsewhere in the world: we do not talk to evil men. After Fidel stepped down, Bush described Cuba as an "outpost of tyranny", while John Bolton, his late and unlamented ambassador to the UN, called it the region's own "axis of evil". The White House says simply that it "sees no point" in holding negotiations with a "dictator-in-waiting" such as Raú.

Indeed, the state department dashed all hopes of progress when it said not only that "the US will not accept a succession scenario", but that "there will not be a succession". Tell that to 11.3 million Cubans.

Even many of the 1.5 million Cuban Americans (who live mainly in Florida and New Jersey) are dismayed by the prospect of the continuing isolation between their two homelands. Regardless of those plans for a high-jinks party in Miami, many of the hundreds of thousands of Cubans who poured in to Little Havana between 1959 and 1962 have now died and successive US-born generations of Cuban Americans are (contrary to long-standing myth) much less fanatical and obsessive. None the less, Cubans are still granted the unique privilege of being given automatic asylum, in effect, should they make the 90-mile journey to Florida.

Yet if George W Bush is to blame for such a hopeless impasse, so are the eight previous US presidents whom Castro has successfully defied. Ike ordered the CIA to destabilise Cuba when Fidel came to power in 1959, stopped buying Cuban sugar and ordered an embargo on selling oil to Cuba. As US ambassador to the UN, Adlai Stevenson tried to persuade JFK to ameliorate relations with Fidel by giving the Cubans back the naval base in eastern Cuba that the US insisted on occupying. It was called Guantanamo.

Instead, JFK tried to demonstrate his manhood by ordering the Bay of Pigs fiasco in April 1961, and since then US-Cuban economic and political relations have been virtually non-existent, the US always assuming that its combined policies of drastic economic embargoes, political isolationism and ongoing CIA attempts to foment insurgency would bring Castro down. Castro survived at least eight assassination attempts by the CIA or its agents between 1960 and 1965 alone, according to a US Senate intelligence committee report. They included such tragicomic efforts as putting explosives in his cigars and giving him a diving suit lined with carcinogenic materials.

Clinton also pandered to the Cuban-American vote in his 1992 election campaign by saying that the US "must bring the hammer down" on Cuba. That same year, Congress passed the Cub an Democracy Act, which tightened restrictions on trade and travel. It was followed, four years later, by the even more swingeing Cuban Liberty and Democratic Solidarity Act, aka the Helms-Burton Act, after its authors, the late Senator Jesse Helms and Congressman Dan Burton (who is about to announce his candidacy for the Republican 2008 presidential nomination). This, among many other things, made it illegal under US law for foreign countries to trade with Cuba or for a US administration even to recognise a transitional government from Fidel to Raú.

Which brings us to 2007, a boneheaded administration in place until 2009, and a Senate and House with small Democratic majorities that are not enough to overturn presidential vetoes. If Congress attempted to abolish the Helms-Burton Act, for example, it would be stymied by a presidential veto. "The chances of getting any major legislative changes [over Cuba] emanating from the Congress that the president will accept are slim," said a senior adviser to a Democratic congressman who asked not to be identified. "But we control the agenda in terms of hearings, and that way we can raise the profile of discussion."

Thus, Congressman Bill Delahunt, the Democrat head of the oversight panel of the House foreign affairs committee, has already said that he will hold hearings on aid to Cuba. Rangel and Flake intend to persevere with reversing the travel ban and, in the Senate, Max Baucus and Joe Biden (the new chairs of the finance and foreign relations committees) plan high-profile hearings on Cuba.

To which, naturally, the Bush administration will remain adamantly deaf. In 2003, Dubbya set up the "Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba", the purpose of which (according to none other than Condoleezza Rice) was "to hasten the end of the dictatorship". It introduced yet more severe restrictions, making it illegal to send even clothing or soap to Cuba from the US.

Last year, the commission issued a 93-page report, some of which was redacted; its principal recommendation was that the US spend a further $80m to overthrow the Castros. The classified section is presumed to contain details of US military plans to invade Cuba (or even, yet again, to assassinate one or the other, or both, of the Castros). Fidel dismissed members of the commission as "shit-eaters who do not deserve the world's respect".

In addition, $35m of US tax dollars is still known to be budgeted annually for what is known as "democracy promotion" (in other words, destabilisation) in Cuba, although the isolationism has meant that US intelligence from inside Cuba is very low-grade indeed. The US has funded the truly pathetic TV and Radio Martí since 1985, seemingly oblivious to the fact that the Cubans successfully jam the TV signal and all but shortwave radio transmissions. By Washington's own estimation, only 1.7 per cent of Cubans ever listen to Radio Martí.

The finest beaches I have ever seen are near the city of Santiago de Cuba on the island's eastern tip (close to Guantanamo) and are second only to those of Oman, in my experience. A nightmare scenario for me is that such idyllic places will suddenly be invaded by hordes of casino-bound US tourists chugging down their Cuba Libres.

But much of the thinking on the American right, as well as the left, is that more economic trade and tourism can only open up Cuba and simultaneously benefit relations with the US. "We need to give up the travel ban first and foremost. If it were up to me, obviously I'd lift the whole embargo," Congressman Flake told me. "Having [it] has been a tremendous advantage, in my view, for the old regime."

The ultimate sanction Congress can impose on a recalcitrant president is to withdraw funding for his policies, as some now want to do with financing the war in Iraq. But "I'd like to see [the travel ban bill] go through regular order and not have to amend appropriation bills," says Flake. "We still face a difficult time going through regular order, given the composition of the foreign affairs committee of the House."

Stalin, Mao, Kim Il-sung: successive US administrations sat back and assumed, wrongly, that once they had gone, magically democratic and pro-western leaders would materialise in their place. But it is not just Republican congressmen such as Flake or former CIA chiefs such as Porter Goss who see the departure of Fidel differently: General Michael Maples, director of the Defence Intelligence Agency, testified before the Senate recently that Raú Castro is firmly in control of a relatively stable, functioning Cuba and that no dramatic change should be expected soon.

US intelligence first reported that Fidel was dead in 1956, supposedly killed by Fulgencio Batista's forces in the Playa Las Coloradas rebellion. More than half a century later, according to World Health Organisation figures, life expectancy is higher and infant mortality rates lower in Castro's Cuba than in the US; it has diplomatic relations with more than 160 countries and (according to the CIA's own figures) its economic growth rate is 7.5 per cent. Perhaps that wild party at the Miami Orange Bowl will prove somewhat premature.

http://www.newstatesman.com/200702120027
 
I recall that one of the earliest escapees from Fidel and Raoul Castros' Cuba was....their own sister, in fear for her life.
 
Ill look up the National Geographics articles on Cuba (if someone doesnt best me to them)

They are interesting and mostly positive.

The one on the enviroment is very nice. The cubans are very lucky to live in such an enlightened place.
 
Juantia Castro was one of many who left the country, and is still around -
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/200 ... ster_x.htm

- though I'm a bit doubtful of 'in fear of her life'. The Castro regime's human rights record doesn't include large-scale executions of opponents the way that regimes in El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras etc did.

Ironic really that the one big prison camp in Cuba full of people who were arrested without charge, held indefinitely and denied legal process is not run by the Cubans. :(

We can only hope that after the Bush administration, someone finally starts talking. It can only benefit everyone.
 
The cubans are very lucky to live in such an enlightened place.

Yes, so enlightened that they put gay people in prison :roll:

Don't get me wrong - I think the US attiitude towards and blockade of Cuba is appalling and I recognise that Fidel and co have in many ways tried to create a decent, egalitarian society. But the fact remains that Cuba is ultimately a dictatorship that does nasty things to those who disagree with it and I do find the spectacle of liberal Western tourists cooing over its wonderful health service and charming peasants etc before retiring to their five star hotels faintly nauseating.

Oddly, not many of the pro-Cuba cheerleaders in the West seem to choose to emigrate there. It would seem that the wonderful health service and sense of community may be great for Cubans, but clearly not good enough for their comrades in in wealthier countries who much prefer their hard currency salaries.

Sorry to rant, but this sort of hypocrisy just sets my teeth on edge.
 
I dont know, but the people I have met who have actualy been there seem pretty impressed with the place.

(Id like to go but Im like one of those priveliged citizens of the US...too poor to afford holidays)

Your right in that there seem to not be a lot of people wanting to live there; perhaps its very hard to get in?

Or not publicised enough?

I have a friend who wants to emigrate, he wants to go to the US (of all places!) and I asked him if he could afford to live there.

I didnt tell him of the fate of my friend who `did` emigrate to the US...do you think that a top IT specialist would be allowed to die in Cuba because he had no health insurance and couldnt afford healthcare??

(as an aside on matters not publicised; its very hard to go live in Jersey or Guernsey, as you know, but on Alderney they welcome anyone who can afford a property.)
 
Your right in that there seem to not be a lot of people wanting to live there; perhaps its very hard to get in?

Or not publicised enough?

No idea. There certainly seem to be a lot of people so desperate to leave that they drown en route to Florida. :(
 
Quake42 said:
The cubans are very lucky to live in such an enlightened place.

Yes, so enlightened that they put gay people in prison

Which we would never ever do in the US or UK...

Actually there is a thriving gay subculture in Cuba. You need to distinguish between the letter of the law and how it actually works.

Quake42 said:
Oddly, not many of the pro-Cuba cheerleaders in the West seem to choose to emigrate there.

The point about Cuba is that it has tremendous advantages for the poorer sections of society. (Education, health social security) If you're going to be rich, be rich in the US or Mexico, the shops are better and ricjh people can have a much more privileged existence; if you're poor, Cuba is a far better place to be. That's the achievement, not attracting ex-pats.
 
Quake42 said:
Your right in that there seem to not be a lot of people wanting to live there; perhaps its very hard to get in?

Or not publicised enough?

No idea. There certainly seem to be a lot of people so desperate to leave that they drown en route to Florida.

Plenty die crossing from Mexico too - and coming to the UK from various parts of the world. Illegal immmigration is a hazardous business, as will be as long as borders remain closed.
 
wembley8 said:
The point about Cuba is that it has tremendous advantages for the poorer sections of society. (Education, health social security) If you're going to be rich, be rich in the US or Mexico, the shops are better and ricjh people can have a much more privileged existence; if you're poor, Cuba is a far better place to be. That's the achievement, not attracting ex-pats.

That sums up my view of Cuba, no society is perfect but for the many millions of poor folk in the south, Venezuela and Cuba are the place to be, since the fall of communism in Europe the welfare state is withering around the world especially in the Anglo countries, I for one don't want to live in a cold European version of Mexico, at least not as a peon. Let's not forget that the achievements of Cuba were done under siege conditions thanks to the Yankees constant efforts to thwart the revolution and make the world safe for plutocrats.
 
The point about Cuba is that it has tremendous advantages for the poorer sections of society. (Education, health social security)

You see... this is what I don't like. This whole "obviously this would be no good for us, but it's great for the third world proles and makes us feel faintly radical by visiting the place and buying their fair trade trinkets!"

It reminds me of the so-called socialists who support veiled women in Islam because of "cultural factors" but would be horrified if anyone suggested their own daughters be subject to that level of misogyny.

If something is not good enough for you, then I would suggest caution in suggesting it is the best thing for someone else from a poorer country.

That is all. :)
 
wembley8 said:
You need to distinguish between the letter of the law and how it actually works.

My own experience over the decades is that if there is something about you or your lifestyle that is officially illegal, that law is sooner or later going to coil around you and and bite you.

I'm reminded of how many Jews in the early days of Nazi Germany insisted that Nazi anti-Semiticsm was nothing more than meaningless "window-trimming" for the movement and went on with their lives as normal - for a few more months at least.
 
wembley8 said:
Quake42 said:
Your right in that there seem to not be a lot of people wanting to live there; perhaps its very hard to get in?

Or not publicised enough?

No idea. There certainly seem to be a lot of people so desperate to leave that they drown en route to Florida.

Plenty die crossing from Mexico too - and coming to the UK from various parts of the world. Illegal immmigration is a hazardous business, as will be as long as borders remain closed.

but the point here, presumably, is that nobody dies in the reverse journey. no matter where you're from if you're so desperate to leave the place then one would have to assume that's a significant comment on it.
 
Its worth pointing out that the Cuban anti gay laws were repealed a long time ago. But the fact that they were ever there says something about the type of society Cuba was and is.

I will defend Cuba against US aggressuon and the Economic blockade but that doesnt mean that I have to wear blinkers and miss the fact that in Cuba its a crime to insult the President. Its also a crime to set up an opposition website or newspaper. Thats not my idea of Socialist Democracy.

Since Castro came to power there has NEVER been a democratic election. I recognise the gains of the Cuban Health & Education systems but it doesnt mean that I should ignore the lack of democracy.

I want to live in a more egalitarian society, but my ideal is not one where One Man holds power for 48 years. Even Tony Blair wouldnt try that on.
 
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