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It is bizarre how certain words are allowed, certain aren't. How certain countries/groups can be more offended that others. Obviously there is weight behind certain words that makes them more offensive, but when you cut to the bone if a man from Scotland is a Scot, a man from Turkey a Turk, then surely a man from Pakistan is... or not, as the case may be. You can feel the internal cringe just reading that analogy. They are all just words, it is what we have been conditioned to feel when we hear them that carries the weight.

As regards reading old stuff I think it should be taken as is. Oddly I was just reading about Blyton yesterday and the Famous 5 books. If they are set in the 1940s and people used to use terminology in that time then I think it should stay in. We can't change the past so why try and manipulate it to pretend things we oppose today didn't exist? That is a very wrong approach IMO.
 
McAvennie_ said:
...then surely a man from Pakistan is... or not, as the case may be...

Apparently, according to an old neighbour of mine when I stayed in the East End (who was from Pakistan), pak or paki means spiritually pure, and as such some Pakistanis don't much mind it - seeing it's derogatory use as a case of 'the jokes on them'.

It's a bit like Ulster protestants shouting Fenian at republicans: I mean, I expect most Republicans would be quite chuffed to be equated with the warriors of Fionn mac Cumhaill.

Of course if you used those terms to an Indian or a Loyalist you'd most likely get an entirely different response.

Edit: There's an alternative, and I believe contested, theory of the derivation of the name Pakistan, that it's a kind of acronym of the provinces which made it up. [Quick google]. Yup, it's just as well for the racists that they created an acronym - can't imagine your average bonehead bigot taking the time out to shout all that.

'Oi, go home, you f***in' PunjabAfghaniaKashmirSindh...erm... Bloody hell, Melvin, we're gonna be here all night - can't we just go and find a PortadownArklowDerryDublinYoughal?.
 
Spookdaddy said:
It's a bit like Ulster protestants shouting Fenian at republicans: I mean, I expect most Republicans would be quite chuffed to be equated with the warriors of Fionn mac Cumhaill.

I always chuckle internally whenever some delightful gent chooses to greet me with a cheery 'Fenian c**t' at the football, given that I am neither Irish, nor Catholic and had to look Fenian up on the internet the first time to find out what it was I allegedly was. :lol:
 
McAvennie_ said:
It is bizarre how certain words are allowed, certain aren't. How certain countries/groups can be more offended that others. Obviously there is weight behind certain words that makes them more offensive, but when you cut to the bone if a man from Scotland is a Scot, a man from Turkey a Turk, then surely a man from Pakistan is... or not, as the case may be. You can feel the internal cringe just reading that analogy. They are all just words, it is what we have been conditioned to feel when we hear them that carries the weight.


And, of course, how you say those words. There are Pakis, in the way you say above ie. a shortened version of Pakistanis, and there are Pakis, said with a snarl and a spat P. Same word, very different meaning.
Interestingly, round here, because the word Paki causes so much offence, even to the point of arrest, the term "Stanis" gets more usage (far more inclusive for your discerning racist, it covers Afghan, Khazak, Tajiki, Kygyri, Uzbek, Turkmen and Pakistanis). Obviously, if the word is spat out, you can guess the context.

Incidentally McAvennie, are you Scotch? (And thanks for bringing the world Abi Titmus, I never thought you were guilty) :D
 
Incidentally McAvennie, are you Scotch?

Perhaps you mean Scottish? Some Scots are a bit touchy about that, eg: HOW WOULD LIKE IF I CALLED YOU PADDY? as she stormed off.
 
LordRsmacker said:
McAvennie_ said:
It is bizarre how certain words are allowed, certain aren't. How certain countries/groups can be more offended that others. Obviously there is weight behind certain words that makes them more offensive, but when you cut to the bone if a man from Scotland is a Scot, a man from Turkey a Turk, then surely a man from Pakistan is... or not, as the case may be. You can feel the internal cringe just reading that analogy. They are all just words, it is what we have been conditioned to feel when we hear them that carries the weight.


And, of course, how you say those words. There are Pakis, in the way you say above ie. a shortened version of Pakistanis, and there are Pakis, said with a snarl and a spat P. Same word, very different meaning.
Interestingly, round here, because the word Paki causes so much offence, even to the point of arrest, the term "Stanis" gets more usage (far more inclusive for your discerning racist, it covers Afghan, Khazak, Tajiki, Kygyri, Uzbek, Turkmen and Pakistanis). Obviously, if the word is spat out, you can guess the context.

Incidentally McAvennie, are you Scotch? (And thanks for bringing the world Abi Titmus, I never thought you were guilty) :D

All words are just words. "Fenian cunt" are just words but we know that they can never be meant in a nice way. Is it really so hard to say "Pakistani" when you're aware it's not regarded as offensive and to not say "Paki" because you know it is? To protest otherwise is either disingenuous or pig-headed.
 
LordRsmacker said:
Incidentally McAvennie, are you Scotch? (And thanks for bringing the world Abi Titmus, I never thought you were guilty) :D

I suppose I am your 'Rod Stewart' variety Scotsman.

Both parents and everyone else as far back as I have been able to trace - mid 1800s - are from Aberdeenshire. Unfortunately ( ;) ) for me I was born on the outskirts of London and aside from 3 years away at Uni have always lived down here.

Apparently though according to my friends when I was at school I pronounced certain words differently - probably unsurprising given I'd have learned the way to say them from people with broad accents - which led to me getting mild bullying for not speaking the same as everyone else. I can't hear anything but a southern accent - which at Uni got me the nickname of being a 'Jockney'. Being a vocal Scotland fan at the time of the Costa Rica debacle of 1990 or the Euro 96 loss to England didn't help either.

May have been born in England but I was raised by Scots and have always felt 100% Scottish. I guess another person in the same scenario may have grown up feeling 100% English so it is up to interpretation. The way I feel my body was born in England but my heart is Scottish, that's just me and defending the right to feel like that led to many heated arguments when I was younger with people who liked to antagonise. If one parent is Scottish you are half-Scottish, so if both are... :evil: ...don't get me started...! ;)

At least I'm a lookalike to a Scot! I'd happily be mistaken for him by Titmus...
 
ramonmercado said:
Incidentally McAvennie, are you Scotch?

Perhaps you mean Scottish? Some Scots are a bit touchy about that

Oh, I know that, full well, which is why I said it! Not that there's anything wrong with it, it's a perfectly correct term for someone from Scotland, as per the OED. I have no idea why it has become to be seen as a touchy subject, perhaps thanks to "Dad's Army"?
 
Dr_Baltar said:
All words are just words. "Fenian cunt" are just words but we know that they can never be meant in a nice way. Is it really so hard to say "Pakistani" when you're aware it's not regarded as offensive and to not say "Paki" because you know it is? To protest otherwise is either disingenuous or pig-headed.

Like I say, depends on the context and to whom the words are directed, and also who is saying it.
When I drop in to see my old Ma and she tells me she's out of milk, don't bother going to Tesco, just nip round the Paki shop and grab a pint before it closes, there's not an ounce of malice or offence in it.
The owners of that shop might not even be Pakistanis, but that's OK, I know which shop she means and off I trot. I suppose she means for me to nip round to the shop run by the family from the Asian sub-continent, the Sandhu SupasaverMiniMart, but that doesn't roll off the tongue as easily, does it?

Same goes if I want something to eat, she asks if I fancy a Chinky. I know she's not asking if I have designs on a Chinese lass. (It does piss me off, however, when she tells me she wants to watch "Corrie". WTF? Oh, you mean "Coronation St.")

I know that personally, I don't use the word Paki(shop), not because I think it's highly offensive, but because I know that others find it so and we are told from childhood that we're not to use it. ("Yes, I know I used that word son, but do as I say, not as I do") I also find it a little stupid, a bit like calling a Frenchman a Dago, when clearly that is a Spaniard.
I dare say the first thing the shopkeeper would think is "Hang about, we're not Pakis, we're Indians". Depends, I imagine, if he overhears someone talking about popping in to the Paki shop for a paper, or if some retard is calling him a "fucking smelly Paki" from across the road. One is going to niggle him, one is going to rightly aggrieve him.

Incidentally, she's no dullard either, my Ma, she's an educated woman, just set in her ways (ie. old). I'm pretty sure she doesn't bandy such language about in open company, so I guess she is conscious enough about it to think about what she says before she opens her mouth. Difficult to change her ways at her age perhaps, easier for me, won't even be an issue for my kids. She did nearly get tarred and feathered though when she went looking for some dark brown curtain material. What shade of brown? Why, "nigger brown" of course........doh!
 
Old people can be so sweet, with their casual racism and discriminatory views.

Awwww. Makes my heart warm.

:twisted:
 
rev_dino said:
Old people can be so sweet, with their casual racism and discriminatory views.

Awwww. Makes my heart warm.

:twisted:

Slightly OT. I once had a girlfriend and when the appropriate time came i met the family. I was warned that Grandad had "views" This included a Parrot trained to say every racist slur you care to think of. Sure enough, within ten minutes of meeting him he was ranting about these "Bladdy imigrants" etc etc. Just out of mischieve, my gfs mother chipped in with "By the way Dad, Stu works for the race equality comission" No pause, no look of contrition, without skipping a beat, old Grandad "I don't givva fuck, AND another thing...."

Generational attitudes i think. 200 years from now, Historians will be smirking over our poor backward racist age me thinks.
 
All this talk of Enid Blyton reminds me of a phrase frequently used in the St Clare's books ...."sucks for Gwendoline" The mind boggles
 
McAvennie, how do you find you're treated by Scottish people generally? Having an Irish father, and lots of family there, I always felt at home when I visited Ireland with him, but as soon as I went there without an Irish sounding companion I got totally different treatment. Made me feel very dislocated.

Similarly, in Scotland when I was with a Canadian friend, we got treated a lot more kindly than when I went with another English friend.

Edited to add I just realized it could just be because I'm obnoxious.
 
LordRsmacker said:
I have no idea why it has become to be seen as a touchy subject, perhaps thanks to "Dad's Army"?

I wonder if it's because it has become more firmly identified with whisky than as being an adjective? A Scotch man, a Scotch city, a Scotch whisky all come from Scotland. An English man, an English city, an English gin(?) all come from England.

But if you just say "English" then you probably think of an Englishman first. If you just say "Scotch" then you probably think of whisky first.

Certainly if anyone called me "Scotch" I'd point out to them that I'm not a drink!

The only other reason I can think of is Dr Johnson's rather disparaging attitude to the Scottish. It's one of the few examples of "Scotch" for the Scottish in print, and in an unflattering light too, so maybe that's the association?
 
lawofnations said:
But if you just say "English" then you probably think of an Englishman first. If you just say "Scotch" then you probably think of whisky first.

I think of pancakes, myself.

Mmmm...
 
LaurenChurchill said:
Sticky tape here. Don't know why though, I've never called it Scotch tape :?

Allegedly because it originally only had adhesive down each edge to ease its removal but this was misconstrued as a sign of stinginess.
 
Dr_Baltar said:
LaurenChurchill said:
Sticky tape here. Don't know why though, I've never called it Scotch tape :?

Allegedly because it originally only had adhesive down each edge to ease its removal but this was misconstrued as a sign of stinginess.

Who would ever suggest Scots are stingy? I'm sure theres a reasonable explanation for the moths in their wallets.
 
ramonmercado said:
I'm sure theres a reasonable explanation for the moths in their wallets.

It's because we like to give a warm and welcome home to those otherwise shunned by society at large.
 
Harry Lauder

It was him promoted the myth of scots being mean.

(Only Aberdeenians are mean of course, Scots i find are a most generous people; though careful with money.)
 
Kondoru said:
Harry Lauder

It was him promoted the myth of scots being mean.

(Only Aberdeenians are mean of course, Scots i find are a most generous people; though careful with money.)

Good to know then that Aberdonians must be okay then...
 
Dr_Baltar said:
ramonmercado said:
I'm sure theres a reasonable explanation for the moths in their wallets.

It's because we like to give a warm and welcome home to those otherwise shunned by society at large.

Have a whip-around for Tommy Sheridan then.
 
ramonmercado said:
Have a whip-around for Tommy Sheridan then.

Anything regarding whips and Tommy Sheridan is currently sub judice so I can offer no comment.
 
Talking of Enid Blyton stories (and possibly just to upset Dingo 667 a tiny bit!) does anyone know which book of hers had "The Boy Who Dropped His Aitches" in it? I would LOVE to read/ possess it again, just for nostalgic reasons.
 
According to this it was in the 'Sunny Stories for Little Folks' Magazine (Poor Old Scarecrow! issue) and in the book 'Six o'Clock Tales'.

That site, and http://www.enidblyton.net/ are a real treasure trove. After I posted before I went on another little hunt and managed to find that book (The Treasure Hunters) and quite a few others I'd forgotten about. I've spent a happy afternoon (and too much money) on ebay :D
 
'Lost' Enid Blyton book unearthed
By Ian Youngs, Arts reporter, BBC News

An unpublished and previously unknown Enid Blyton novel is believed to have turned up in an archive of the late children's author's work.
Mr Tumpy's Caravan is a 180-page fantasy story about a magical caravan.

It was in a collection of manuscripts that was auctioned by the family of Blyton's eldest daughter in September.
"I think it's unique," said Tony Summerfield, head of the Enid Blyton Society. "I don't know of any full-length unpublished Blyton work."
The collection was bought by the Seven Stories children's book centre in Newcastle.

Blyton, who died in 1968, remains a children's favourite and a publishing phenomenon thanks to such characters as the Famous Five, the Secret Seven and Noddy.

An estimated 500 million copies of her books have been sold around the world, with updated and reprinted versions of her most popular stories still selling eight million copies a year.

Mr Tumpy's Caravan follows the adventures of a caravan with feet and a mind of its own.
Together with Mr Tumpy, his friends and a dog called Bun-Dorg, it crosses an ocean before facing a dog-headed dragon in an attempt to save a princess's land.

It was initially believed to have been a version of a picture book called Mr Tumpy and His Caravan, compiled using comic strips published in the London Evening Standard in the 1940s.
Imogen Smallwood, Blyton's youngest daughter, told BBC News: "It does appear to be a little bit of a mystery because there is a Mr Tumpy book that was published in 1949, which was actually a cartoon book.
"I just thought that was that. But no, it turns out that this is completely different.
"It's a whole book, written with words, about a completely different Mr Tumpy and indeed a completely different caravan.

"There's always excitement when an unknown typescript is found of anybody's who is well known," she continued.
"Because this wasn't even known about, it has to rank quite high."
The typescript is not dated but bears the address Old Thatch, Bourne End, Buckinghamshire - Blyton's home until 1938.

The collection of original typescripts was auctioned following the death of Blyton's eldest daughter, Gillian Baverstock, in 2007.

Seven Stories archivist Hannah Green said she realised the typescript did not appear to be closely related to the picture book when she came to catalogue the collection.
"When I looked in more detail into this, it became apparent that it was actually very different and looks like an unpublished novel," she said.

"It doesn't often happen that you have something unpublished by such a well-known author. I think I am probably the first person, certainly in a very long time, to have read the whole thing.
"It was really exciting to spend an afternoon reading it."

Chorion, the company that controls Blyton's estate, said it could not be 100% sure about the differences between the picture book and the novel because they both "pre-date our acquisition of the Blyton Estate".
"However, we have every confidence in the Enid Blyton Society's views," Chorion's Esra Cafer said. "No-one knows more about Blyton's works than Tony Summerfield. This is a great find and Seven Stories is the perfect home for it."

Seven Stories paid around £40,000 for a number of items, including original draft copies of the Famous Five, Secret Seven, Noddy and Malory Towers books.
Combining a gallery, children's activity hub and a preservation centre, Seven Stories aims to save and celebrate great British children's books.
Set up in 2005, it is attempting to establish a national collection of manuscripts and memorabilia from leading authors and illustrators

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-12511512
 
That rediscovered masterpiece certainly begins promisingly:

"Gosh!" said Dick, rushing from Mr Tumpy's caravan with his pXXXs around his ankles, "That old XXXXX (Roma person) has got to XXXX off back to XXXland with the rest of the GXXXXXXGs! My XXXXing Fudger feels like a roasted hedgehog!" :shock:
 
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