Enoch, The Apocrypha & The Forgotten Books Of Eden



I'm a bit of a fortean virgin and I'm looking for some information on enochian magik/language and Glasgow's St.Enoch. What, if any, is the conection between the two?
...a personal interest of my own too puc. I'll try to fill you in with some info tomorrow. Not heard of Glasgow's St. Enoch though - any more info?
enoch background

not much. I have heard one story that she was the mother of st. mungo, glasgows patron saint. that back around the 8th century her father, a local nobleman, tried to force her to marry a pagan. On the wedding night Enoch, secretly a christian, refused the pagan lord's advances, was raped by him, and then to top it all, when her father found out about the incident he took enoch to the top of a hill/tower and threw her off because she had shamed the familly. enoch survived and made her way to a christian safevillage of some kind, and gave birth to st.mungo.

all this could be vastly inacurrate, but it was the form of the legend that I was told.

St. Enoch Square a landmark with glasgow itself, albeit a rather unimpressive one.
It's the biblical Enoch (Genesis 5: 24) to whom Enochian magic owes its name. The term 'Enochian magic' itself is often used to describe the magical system revealed to John Dee by various angels toward the end of the 16th century. Dee was interested in (amongst other things) recovering the supposedly lost books of Enoch, Esdras and other prophets. The following is an extract from Dee's spiritual diary for 25 June 1584; the communicating angel is Ave:

"The Lord appeared unto Enoch, and was merciful unto him, opened his eyes, that he might see and judge the earth... the Lord said, let us shew unto Enoch, the use of the earth: And lo, Enoch was wise, and full of the spirit of wisdom"
"Now it hath pleased God to deliver this Doctrine again out of darkness: and to fulfill his promise with thee, for the books of Enoch"

Ave went on to deliver what Dee believed to be the book of Enoch. There is no connection, so far as I am aware, with St Enoch.
There is a lot about Enochian Language on Google

But as far as I can tell, there is no connection with St Enoch or Glasgow.

The Best I could find on St Enoch herself was this:

"The following information about St. Enoch has been collected from various resources including "The Hidden History of Glasgow's Women - The Thenew Factor" by Elspeth King. All source materials came from an account written around 1180 by Jocelinus, a monk at the Benedictine Abbey in Furness and commissioned by Jocelyn, Bishop of Glasgow nearly 600 years after St. Mungo's death.

Legends have it that Thenew, more commonly known as St. Enoch, was the daughter of Loth, King of the Lothians. Loth wanted Thenew to marry the son of the King of Cumbria but she refused. Very angry at her defiance, Loth banished Thenew to live with swineherd and shepherds. While she was alone she was attacked and became pregnant, but she refused to say who was the father of the baby.

Thenew's father felt she had disgraced the royal family and it was decided she was to be stoned to death. Nobody felt able to stone a Princess, so she was taken in a cart to the top of a mountain called Traprain Law.The cart was pushed over the edge but she was rescued by a flock of white birds and brought safely down to earth. When the cart was removed from where it had buried itself, a fountain appeared and even today the glacial marks are traditionally known as those of Thenew's cart.

Outraged by her survival, her father demanded Thenew be taken to Aberlady Bay. She was put into a coracle made of pitch, osiers and hides and with no rudder, sail or oar she was cast adrift into the sea. With the help of the wind and tides, she came ashore on the Island of May, just off the east coast of Scotland near the Firth of Forth. Knowing she had to get to the mainland, she walked out into the sea where a shoal of fish carried her safely to the shore at Culross. It was here that Thenew gave birth to her son, Kentigern - who became known as Mungo, which means Dear One."

(From http://www.stenoch.com/history.html )
Enoch was a biblical character, son of Jared and father of Methuselah. He was depicted as being extraordinarily devout, and therefore was translated directly into heaven without dying (Genesis 5.24). In the Graeco-Roman era his name became attached to Jewish apocalyptic writings allegedly describing his visions and journeys through the heavens (1, 2, and 3 Enich). The Book of Enoch is a book of the Pseudepigrapha rather than the Apocrytha.

Enoch was able to talk directly to God and the angels in their own language - the language of the Word. This is the language that created the World and contains all it's secrets.

Dee used Kelly to skry the Conversations of Angels in the late 16th century and this led to the revealing of the language of Enoch - It was dictated backwards and in code but still works out to be a fully functional language with a 22 letter alphabet, syntax, grammar etc. etc.

Enochian magick is still practised today but it has become a much more advanced system than that which Dee and Kelly devised (mostly thanks to The Golden Dawn and Aleister Crowley).
Book of Enoch

Well I've always wanted to read this & its story of the fall of the watchers, nephilim, Lucifer etc and the war in heaven. recently I picked up a 1912 published edition of HR Charles Book of Enoch (good condition too) in a second hand book shop & am just starting to have a look at it. Along with the English Translations it has the Greek & Ethiopian texts as well.

What do you guys think about the Book of Enoch?
Yes but that thread was about St Enoch not the biblical Enoch & the Book of Enoch.
...adding only that the book of Enoch is considered canonical in the Ethiopian Xtian church, and is regarded by many mainstream biblical scholars as a sort of 'source material' for much of what is contained in the synoptic gospels, and is thus a major influence on early Xtianity.
As a St Clair, I have many vested interests with Enochs Pillar and its local whereabouts.
Have you investigated the tantalising Slavonic version of the secrets of Enoch?

I picked one up that has many interesting (and disturbed) footnotes by a previous owner but the text is fascinating.

Slavonic Enoch:

An entirely different Enoch manuscript has survived in the Slavonic language. This text, dubbed "2 Enoch" and commonly called "the Slavonic Enoch," was discovered in 1886 by a professor Sokolov in the archives of the Belgrade Public Library. It appears that just as the Ethiopic Enoch ("1 Enoch") had escaped the sixth-century Church suppression of Enoch texts in the Mediterranean area, so a Slavonic Enoch had survived far away, long after the originals from which it was copied were destroyed or hidden away.

Specialists in the Enochian texts surmise that the missing original form which the Slavonic was copied was probably a Greek manuscript. This may have been, in turn, based on a Hebrew or Aramaic manuscript.

It is also possible that the core of the Slavonic Enoch, The Book of the Secrets of Enoch, was known to the Essenes.
confounded enoch - the Mayans/the Bible and the enigmatic Dr

Can anyone help me clear up some confusion I have concerning John Dee, the Mayans/Aztecs and Enoch? What is the root of this word Enoch? The little knowledge I have on the subject seems slightly incongrous and somewhat enigmatic.

1 - John Dee. He transcribed the Enochian Language, didn't he? Didn't he claim that the principle angel he spoke with identified itself as Enoch? And am I correct in thinking that he used a Mayan/Aztec obsidian stone to do his scrying?

2 - Mayans&Aztecs. (According to Gilbert&Cortell in their work "The Mayan Prophecies") Tenochtitlan is the name of the Aztec city founded on older Mayan ruins in around the 13th century AD. The city derives its name from the seer Tenoch, who led his people out of the north to their new homeland in the valley of Mexico.

3 - The Bible. Enoch gets a tip of the hat in Genesis 4:17; "And Cain knew his wife, and she concieved and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the city, after the name of his son, Enoch."

So what should I assume from this? It is concievable that Dee had heard of Tenochtitlan; he was born in 1527 and the first spanish had landed in 1511, (Cortez conquered Tenochtitlan just six years before Dee was born) and after all Dee had come into the possesion of the Mayan obsidian stone, so its safe to assume that he had at least some knowldge of the "newworlds" history and geography.

But how on earth did the name of Cain's son and the Bible's first city end up being the name of a 13th century AD Aztec seer,not to mention the name of the first Aztec city?

Is it merely that the Spanish with its strong ties to the church themselves (re)named the city Tenochtitlan, as they would have seen the parallel between this city and the one spoke of in the bible ie. as both are said to be founding cities of their respective nations? Even this explanation doesn't sit well with me.

any thoughts on the matter would be much appreciated. cheers.
Dee's scrying was done with a crystal ball (now held by the British Museum) or through children (or his apprentice) using various means, one of which was to use an egg broken into a bowl of water. I've never heard of any reference to Dee and a connection with Meso-America. IIRC, Dee claimed that the crystal ball was given to him by his angelic contact.
Book of Enoch....

The Book of Enoch is a bit of the Bible that escaped and was only turned up (by Westerners) in the Ethiopian version in the 19 century.

Enoch's a prophet, an ancestor of Noah

You can pull the text off various websites.

The book tells about the fall of the rebel angels (called the Watchers), in very different version from the one most are familiar with.

Enoch also makes a trip to heaven (interpreted by some as ancient astronauts).

There's also a large chunk of ancient astronomy in it.

Andrew Collins provides one version of was all this stuff means in 'The Ashes of Angels'

Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas in Uriel's Machine provide another interpretation, of the world spanning ancient knowledge genre.
I can understand your confusion...
1. Dee was interested in the Biblical patriarch Enoch and the lost books attributed to him. Dee communicated with a number of angels, none of whom were called Enoch. The language Dee received was never referred to by him or the angels as 'Enochian' - this is a later attribution. There is an obsidian mirror in the British Museum that supposedly belonged to Dee, but there is no evidence that it was used as a scrying glass. It's probably a shaving mirror. Dee used a crystal ball that he describes as being about the size of an egg and which he drew a picture of in his diaries.

2. 'Tenochtli' in the nahuatl language is the name of a cactus, and Tenochtitlan means something like 'place of the prickly pear cactus'. As an aside, the suffix 'octli' also refers to an alcoholic beverage made from fermented cactus and drunk by the Aztecs. I don't know anything about a seer named tenoch, but as I recall the aztec god Huitzilopochtli had directed that they settle at the place where they saw an eagle perched on a cactus, hence the name. The city was not built on Mayan ruins, you're possibly thinking of one of the older cities such as Teotihuacan.
(I knew it was worth visiting the Royal Academy's 'Aztecs' exhibition!)

3. Enoch gets a few mentions in the bible, and is of interest to mystics because he 'walked with God, and was not, for God took him'. I can't recall the Hebrew version of his name offhand (though it may be Hanokh?)

In short, I don't think there's any connection here
question for ged the grey

but ged,

I take your point on board but don't you find it a little strange that both the Bibles reputed first city, and the founding city of the Aztecs are called respectively, Enoch and Tenochtitlan? everything else aside, that is still a hell of a coincidence.
IIRC, Aztec for "God" is "Teo"
Latin for "God" is "Deo".

Sometimes a coincidence is just a coincidence.....

I think it is simply a coincidence. 'Enoch' is (presumably) a latin translation (I'm not sure whether the Greek version is identical) of the Hebrew name ChNVK (Chanokh). I don't see any connection between the name Enoch and a central American cactus, for example. The Aztecs happened to be the dominant tribe at the time the conquistadors arrived - the cultures of the Mixtecs and Toltecs (which had fallen into decline by the time of Aztec dominance) were certainly more sophisticated and arguably more important than the Aztecs. But they were located elsewhere - Tenochtitlan was a comparatively new city. I can't recall when it was constructed but it was of no great antiquity. Mexico City now occupies the site of Tenochtitlan (Mexico taken from Mexica, the proper name for the Aztecs).
cactus for thought

I certainly take your point on board but, according atleast to Gilbert and Cotterell (see the Mayan Prophecies) the Mexica/Aztec were led out of the north by the seer Tenoch, and Tenochtitlan became their capital, their first city, and named after their founding father (mosses figure) Tenoch, just as Enoch was named after the biblical Enoch son of Kane. And the whole debateaside, Tenochtitlan was built 13th century AD and I think therefore merits our respect as regards cities of antiquity.

As to the Cactus: the cactus would have been of more signifigance to the Aztecs than as a mere plant; for Tenoch's had a vision that his people should continue their wanderings until they came to the place in which an eagle was fighting with a serpen, and this was apparently the first thing the Aztecs saw when taken to the land offered to them by the inhabitants of the land. The cactus therefore could be taken as a sacred symbol, in fact isn't the eagle atop the cactus still a national emblem of the Mexican's? I'm not saying this necessarilly equates the name cactus with the name enoch, but it's food for thought.
Thank you. I have always wanted to know about this, but could never find out
Anyone here ever read the book of enoch, or some of it? Remember how the fallen Angels were cast out into a dark place until judgement? I remember when I was much much younger and my uncle used to say that we should stay away from MARS because if the PYRAMIDS and FACE are real than that may be the place to which the ANGELS were cast.
Then, I remember something from the Forgotten books of Eden regarding Adam telling his son that he had a dream in which three men of the likes of which he had never seen came before him and turned him against god and that this was the reason they (adam and eve) were cast out. Later on, after the flood, Noah is confronted by God who asks him why he created more men from his line to defy God again and Noah says that he and his sons DID not create them...
but then he sent his sons out into the four corners to repopulate...so in effect, Ham and his brothers children mixed with the offspring of unknown origin...And then there is an excerpt about God creating a son with Eve!
So, who are these three beings that keep appearing and if this is all true to word, wouldn't that make our civilization corrupted still and NOT the children of Adam and Eve? And, why is the other son never mentioned? Also, it says that adam and eve had twin daughters.


Here I have found excerpts (thanks to the WWW)!!!

"Then the God, who created us, created a son from himself and Eve, your mother. I knew sweet desire for your mother. Then the vigor of our eternal knowledge was destroyed in us, and weakness pursued us. Therefore the days of our lives became few. For I knew that I had come under the authority of death."

And then:

Then they will become as the cloud of the great light. Those men will come who have been cast forth from the knowledge of the great Aeon and the angels. They will stand before Noah and the Aeons. And God will say to Noah, "Why have you departed from what I told you? You have created another generation so that you may scorn my power" Then Noah will say , "I shall testify before your might that the generation of these men did not come from me nor from my sons."

And this too:

And I saw three men before me whose likeness I was unable to recognize, since they were not from the powers of the God who had created us. They surpassed glory, and men, saying to me , "Arise, Adam, from the sleep of death and hear about the Aeon and the seed of that man to whom life has come, who came from you and from Eve, your wife"

I will try and find more.
You can find the whole Book of Enoch at Sacred Texts

It's interesting because the Watchers (the rebelling angels) actually teach mankind, rather in the way that Prometheus stole fire from the Gods.

And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals 〈of the earth〉 and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures. 2. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjâzâ taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, Armârôs the resolving of enchantments, Barâqîjâl, (taught) astrology, Kôkabêl the constellations, Ezêqêêl the knowledge of the clouds, 〈Araqiêl the signs of the earth, Shamsiêl the signs of the sun〉, and Sariêl the course of the moon.

Enoch's vision of a journey to heaven is pretty spectacular:

Behold, in the vision clouds invited me and a mist summoned me, and the course of the stars and the lightnings sped and hastened me, and the winds in the vision caused me to fly and lifted me upward, and bore me into heaven. 9. And I went in till I drew nigh to a wall which is built of crystals and surrounded by tongues of fire: and it began to affright me. And I went into the tongues of fire and drew nigh to a large house which was built of crystals: and the walls of the house were like a tesselated floor (made) of crystals, and its groundwork was of crystal. 11. Its ceiling was like the path of the stars and the lightnings, and between them were fiery cherubim, and their heaven was (clear as) water. 12. A flaming fire surrounded the walls, and its portals blazed with fire. 13. And I entered into that house, and it was hot as fire and cold as ice: there were no delights of life therein: fear covered me, and trembling got hold upon me. 14. And as I quaked and trembled, I fell upon my face. 15. And I beheld a vision, And lo! there was a second house, greater than the former,
and the entire portal stood open before me, and it was built of flames of fire. 16. And in every respect it so excelled in splendour and magnificence and extent that I cannot describe to you its splendour and its extent. 17. And its floor was of fire, and above it were lightnings and the path of the stars, and its ceiling also was flaming fire. 18. And I looked and saw therein a lofty throne: its appearance was as crystal, and the wheels thereof as the shining sun, and there was the vision of cherubim. 19. And from underneath the throne came streams of flaming fire so that I could not look thereon.

There's also the chunk of an astromical textbook: chapters LXXII-LXXXII.

I wonder why this book(s) never made it into the final cut of the western Bible...perhaps the fallen angels come across as being a bit too appealing.

Enoch's been mentioned in a few other places, but I can't find the best links at the moment.

Makes me think if they were as bad as their offspring!

I feel a mergin' coming on.


(stu edit: links removed as merging done. Thanks Yith :)).
I read the Gnostic gospels whilst in Sixth Form in a Catholic school. The school library had a rather nice copy.