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Evil

The original question seemed to be also the flip side of the old Descarte philosophy on the existance of god. Because I know I am imperfect I must have a sence, an inate knowledge of what perfection is to know that I am imperfect....Therefore( big Jump) god exists. I dont think either side of the equation has it, No Good No Evil, just things we dont approve and those things we do. The incredible force that can be felt can be felt when witnessing birth, destruction, hurricaines, tidal waves, my mothers vile stew!(Im not kidding) The awe applies to both sides
No black
No White
Just varying degrees of Grey

Perhaps ;)
 
Indeed, good and evil blur out to grey. Grey can be defined as behaviour, sentience and feeling. Only the presence of others can determine good and evil, and that itself is not an absolute buy mere opinion (as ever, I say all opinion is neither equal nor valid).
 
miss_scarlet said:
"I have been told stories where it is explained that both sides in war put there faith in god and believe they are right(eous). Yet the opposition believes them to be evil."
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In any large-scale war involving millions of combatants on the competing sides, there are going to be atrocities on BOTH sides.

But while there were occasional American and British G. I.s during World War Two who believed that French farm wives had been placed on earth just to be raped, surely the much greater evil lay in the opposing government which officially believed that entire civilian populations existed just to be machine gunned into common graves or tossed into gas-oves.

The difference is that beween the very occasional firefighter who turns arsonist and entire fire departments dedicated to burning down as many buildings as possible.
 
GadaffiDuck said:
"But what about if someone decides to be evil (or do evil) in the name of what they believe to be evil, that is to say, to deliberately do an act that the majority would define as evil?"
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While it is common (I do it myself) to equate Communist and Nazi atrocities on a one-to-one relationship, people far wiser than I have pointed out that there IS a nuance of difference. Communism practices an "AMORAL Evil" while Naziism favors an "IMMORAL evil."

The Communist: "Liquidating these 100,000 human beings is NOT evil, because WE do it."

The Nazi: "Of course murdering 100,000 human beings in evil. But what the hell, we're going to do it anyway."
 
While I see the point you are making, I must take issue with the tired Nazi/communist scenario. If truth be told, the communist atrocities made hitler appear like a choirboy (and that is no mean feat). Though the Nazis were attempting to exterminate jews, they were also attempting toexterminate the disabled, homosexuals, tartars, gypsies and god knows how many others. Thus any argument re: immoral and amoral is meaningless.

Even though 'we' may disagree with the nazis and call them evil, many of their upper ranks clearly thought they were doing good (though we shudder at). I would imagine most Nazis and Communists of the 1930-40's era considered themselves politicians and soldiers. It is Britain,America and Israel that has used media spin to create a mythical evil of these two. While I loath any totalitarian government (cf Britain under Tony Blair), history has shown (and will show) that many political power bases become militant and imperialistic. Indeed, it would be easy to imagine 19th century europeans viewing Napoleon as the monster that we now see hitler as. Yet Napoleon is not now considered in the same vein.

I seriously doubt that hitler (or indeed dear old uncle joe) woke up in the morning, swished a black cape around their shoulders, twiddled their 'taches and gave a little evil laugh while thinking "what evil shall I do today". It is very easy to demonise when we should be vilifying. Evil is as evil does (natch good).
 
While the Western democracies correctly closed the curtains on Hitler after 12 years (and even that took far too long) Stalin was given carte blanche to kill, torture and enslave for THREE TIMES that long.

From my perspective, Hitler and Stalin both seem to have made evil their good and proceeded accordingly.
 
As one may do evil/wrong to another, but in itself is not a force, we may have to label it a pseudo-privative. :lol:
 
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Just to get this away from 20th century history for a moment...

If this Evil exists, then what are it's aims? If it exists independantly of humans, life, the universe, etc then WHY does it exist? Surely every force has to have something to act upon... forces cannot exist in a vacuum. How can you have gravity for example without bodies? It's meaningless.

In my view the definitions of evil are too varied between human societies and individuals for there to be any such thing as independant, objective Evil. I realize that the "detectors" in this discussion have definitely experienced something however, so how about this for a hypothesis:

The brain (or at least some people's brains) has a capacity to judge a person or object to be a terrifying threat to the self and the entire social group. Anything judged to be thus deserves no mercy as it is clearly Evil and an Enemy. The evolutionary reason for this is to allow the remorseless destruction of human enemies/predators. In other words this facility is there so that in extremis, one can overcome the hesitation most people feel over destroying another human being. A temporary psychopathic state if you will. So when you feel the presence of Evil it is really the capacity for merciless destruction in yourself that you are feeling...

Dreams or other encounters with Evil could be your brain simply stretching it's "Evil muscles" as we don't have much use for this facility in the modern world. This would explain why it happens in ordinary cirucmstances when there is no actual danger present, like the earlier poster's blue eyed car guy; there is no danger, your brain is just keeping it's hand in at a random safe moment.

Does that make sense at all? It seems to conform to my general experience, which is that if there is any such thing as Evil, it's in people.
 
cleverjim said:
Does that make sense at all? It seems to conform to my general experience, which is that if there is any such thing as Evil, it's in people.
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Yes, I think you're right to an extent. It has been one of those questions (What is evil?) that i have been mulling over for years and never satisfactoraly come to any clear conclusions.

The nearest i've come to what i perceive as an understanding of the nature of evil is a comparison to how we perceive and understand 'beauty'. And as they say 'beauty is in the eye of the beholder' and thus i think that the same can be said for 'evil'.

For instance, there could be general agreement that Actor A is beautiful which is akin to the general agreement that Atrocity A is evil. My personal opinion may be that Actor B has greater beauty and Atrocity B may be more evil, and due to my environment, influencers and personal beliefs Atrocity A may not be evil at all but an unpleasent event leading ultimately to a perceived greater good.

As you say Cleverjim
the definitions of evil are too varied between human societies and individuals for there to be any such thing as independant, objective Evil.
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Evil

Those of us who have brushed up against Evil already have far more proof than we either need or desire.

People who have brushed up against high-voltage power lines, and survived, don't need additional proof that electricity exists, although they may still have difficulty in convincing others of the validity of their experience.
 
Re: Evil

OldTimeRadio said:
People who have brushed up against high-voltage power lines, and survived, don't need additional proof that electricity exists, although they may still have difficulty in convincing others of the validity of their experience.
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but OTR, to 'know' that they had experienced the effects of an electric shock they must already understand what electricity is and how an encounter with it is likely to manifest itself. No knowledge of what electricity is may produce a reaction something along the lines of "The crackling blue snake that that lives in the metal ropes bit me today. It really hurt".

It's the same for Evil. To conclude that you have experienced evil, you must have an understanding/frame of reference/definition of what evil is. This is the point that Cleverjim picked up on
the definitions of evil are too varied between human societies and individuals for there to be any such thing as independant, objective Evil.
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and subsequently this leads to my opinion that evil is much like beauty, ultimately a very personal and subjective thing that doesn't exist outside of a human construct.
 
Re: Evil

monster_magnet said:
....my opinion [is] that evil is much like beauty, ultimately a very personal and subjective thing that doesn't exist outside of a human construct."
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You may be right.

For I've seen Beauty, great Beauty, and indeed held that Beauty in my arms for hours at a time. (Too short a time!)

And I've also seen Evil, great Evil, and for a very few seconds that Evil held me in ITS arms. (Uncountable centuries too long a time!)
 
So, we end up with concept that the notion of a human understandable evil is either subjective or possibly objective within a cultural milieu. However, how does a human conscience argue about the nature of an hypothetical evil that transcends human conscience (but can be discussed as a concept, even if misunderstood)? Perhaps that is the crux of the argument...is there evil beyond our semantic terminology. If so, then we must posit superior beings/force/concepts. The point thus becomes nigh circular, ranging between subjective opinion and philosphical debate (in an academic sense)...
 
GadaffiDuck said:
"...is there evil beyond our semantic terminology."
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I think that hits the nail squarely on the head.

I simply cannot find words powerful enough to accurately describe the enormous Malignity that I experienced. The only way to convince others would be for them to undergo the SAME experience, or at least a colateral episode which would affect them to the same degree that mine did me.

But I have absolutely NO desire for them to have to undergo THAT. I don't hate anybody that much.

Now my own supposition is that there is a Force or a Power which HATES us, for the crime of existing, and which just as equally loathes, say, the Surgeon-Birds of Strontium Six, for precisely the same reason.

Merely a supposition of course.
 
He's been drinking beer again...

http://www.bartleby.com/201/1.html

'I will show you fear in a handful of dust.'
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One of T.S. Eliots' best lines.

Humanity has been objectifying abstract concepts since we first acheived consciousness. It's part of how we make meaning.

Of course, the drawback with that process of objectification is that we are not entirely in control of what is objectified. We are mere mortals and our minds are quite capable of projecting far more into those objectifications than the individual can consciously understand. Drawn from our individual knowledge and experience, they must always contain a great deal of subjectivity. That's one of the reasons we are social, storytelling creatures, we can pool our knowledge and experience to build better objective models.

See Plato, Freud and Jung, for further details. ;)
 
Proof that evil exist?

I also had a dream in which I seemed to encounter evil. Like other posters, I cannot find the right words to describe it. I felt it strongly in the dream, and it felt absolutely real. Sort of heavy, opressive, not scary like a fright, but just awful. Describing it is like trying to describe a complicated flavor or smell. I would recognize it if I felt it again which I sincerely hope I never do. I have tried to analyze what made it so terrible and I can't, nor can I say what it >was<. But it was a >something.< It felt wrong, or alien, somehow.

I understand clearly the weakness in such a description. It seems logical to ask, if you can't describe it any better than that, then surely one is justified in saying that there is no evil. Evil must have some concrete attributes to exist. I finally came to the conclusion that the evil I felt was some sort of being whose presence I sensed in the dream. Like some of the other posters, I sincerely hope that if there is an evil entity, then there is a good one too, although I haven't met that one yet up close and personal.
 
Re: Proof that evil exist?

illuminati37411 said:
"I also had a dream in which I seemed to encounter evil. Like other posters, I cannot find the right words to describe it....I would recognize it if I felt it again which I sincerely hope I never do."
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This neatly dovetails with and resonates with my own experience.
 
I once had a dream in which the devil came and sat beside me on a red double decker bus and tried to make me eat marmite sandwiches.
That is a evil dream, depending on your view of marmite.
I really hate marmite. :cross eye
 
Not every dream of Satan is neccessarily a nightmare or an "evil dream." There are quite humorous dreams in which "Old Scratch" is sort of an escapee from a Thorne Smith novel or something by Stephen Laycock. And if Guiseppe Tartini had not dreamed of "the Adversary" on one special 18th Century night we we would never have heard "The Devil's Sonata."

If only MY dream had been of THOSE kinds....
 
on topic, i believe in evil as a seperate entity because i've been to places that felt evil, and as places/buildings can't think and feel, it can't be a defined as something bad they've thought or felt, so it must be evil. and two of those places were churches, so it's not a reaction to anything in the place either.
 
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While having an ordinary conversation with a trance
medium (as you do) she commented that it isn't dark or
empty that you should fear. It is the bright, shiny, sparkly
attractive people who are the most evil. They hide it well
and that is what makes them the most dangerous of all.

TVgeek
 
I have always found it hard to define evil.
I mean, by what measure do we judge evil?
Did the Nazis think they were evil? Did the 911 hijackers think they were evil? did the producers of home and away know that they had created evil?

What we judge as evil, someone else judges as not, as history is always written by the victor over the defeated.

Take the Spanish. They sent men out to conqour the new world and to basically force the heathens there to submit to the catholic church or be destroyed.
That was evil, but the church said it wasnt.
Now look at all those magnificant churches and cathedrials in europe. How many people were forced to make those? how many died for something so vain?

Now look at the world today. Does any sane man actually think that they are evil. true you do get some real monsters, and the course of my work has introduced me to many of them, but they are the minority.
The majority of the people carrying out horrendous acts of barbarity would say that they are not evil.Most say that you are evil for not suppoting their views.

Evil is judged by who ever has the loudest voice or carries the biggest stick.
It always has and always will be.
 
You and I ought to stop taking things so seriously. :lol:
 
I'll promise to try and lighten up.

Best way to combat evil - take the piss!
 
yetifeet1975 said:
Did the Nazis think they were evil?
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Yes, I'm pretty sure they did.

The Communists were AMORAL and said, in effect, "exterminating these hundcred thousand people isn't evil because WE do it in exchange for a better (i. e., more Soviet) world."

The Nazis were IMMORAL and said, in effect, "of course it's evil to exterminate a hundred thousand people, but what the hell we're doing it ANYWAY."

The blood flowed just as red in either case and the stink and the screams carried alike to heaven.
 
Cops and FBI Agents Have No Doubts

It's worth noting that senior homicide detectives and FBI agents who spend five, six and indeed seven days a week eating, sleeping and dreaming serial killers seem to have no doubts whatsoever concerning the existence of evil.

For example, ex-FBI agent Robert Ressler, interviewed in FORTEAN TIMES, No. 113, September, 1998, page 66. It was Ressler who performed the major, in-depth interviews with notorious killer John Wayne "Pogo the Clown" Gacy.

In response to interviewer Jane Watkins' question "Do you believe in evil?" Ressler responded:

"Yes, definitely. I have worked on homicide cases for four decades now and have interviewed some of the most violent offenders known. Some acts can only be explained as evil and go far beyond the act of murder....As far as the question of whether or not one is born evil, I think it starts when a person as small."
 
OldTimeRadio said:
yetifeet1975 said:
Did the Nazis think they were evil?
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Yes, I'm pretty sure they did.
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I'm not convinced.

It always seemed to me that they (or at least some of them) honestly believed they were ridding the world of a scourge.

Just because they don't think they were evil doesn't mean they weren't, of course. And I'm sure some of them were exploiting others.
 
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