• We have updated the guidelines regarding posting political content: please see the stickied thread on Website Issues.

Hastening The End Of Rail Steam Traction?

In connection with the last few posts, I know of some steam enthusiasts who absolutely detest Tornado, the steam locomotive built from scratch a few years ago. To them, this recreation of an LNER A1 is fake and loathsome, an abomination to the world of steam.

Me, I quite like the new loco, as an example of engineering excellence which actually goes to make the older engines seem somehow more relevant.

"Will the Conq's penknife"? Trigger's broom, is it?
The oftentimes tenuous restoration of an old artifact, often to a standard the original didn't ever attain when new, is a kind of wishing after an imagined perfect (or better) past.

The phrase "The Golden Age of Steam" is suggestive, it is for some a "Golden Age", and steam was merely there and anchors the enthusiast to this 'Golden Age' even though it was little more than a passing mode of transport and the age of steam wasn't a great place for the majority of people in the UK, rail network not withstanding.

Building a steam engine from scratch new seems more like an interest in engineering - I still think steam engines have something to offer us, but powering them with coal might not be the best way. But as a 'new' artifact, it doesn't anchor to the past, imagined or otherwise. It's new innit?
 
They have had to solve quite a few problems with Tornado where traditional manufacturing techniques were not considered acceptable. So yes, it is a new build 'in the style of'. Which is all it was ever meant to be, so I don't see why anyone should be upset.

As a result they are trying to get it certified for a higher speed (90 mph I think) so steam specials can fit in among modern rail traffic better. They are acquiring a modern more crash-worthy set of coaches to go with it. The old Mk 1's used on most steam specials were OK in their day (I've travelled thousands of miles in them) , but much better designs came in over 40 years ago.

They are making even more changes to their next one, which is 'in the style of' Gresley's P2's - the most powerful passenger engines to run in the UK.
 
I'm excited by the prospect of a P2-alike, though I'm more of a diesel man myself - not many railway locomotives better-looking than a Western, IMO.
 
Tornado steam train to run timetabled passenger service

For the first time in nearly 50 years, a steam train is to run a timetabled passenger service in England.
The A1 Pacific Tornado will replace diesel trains on the Settle to Carlisle line between Skipton and Appleby for three days.

Video:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38963632
 
Tornado steam train to run timetabled passenger service

For the first time in nearly 50 years, a steam train is to run a timetabled passenger service in England.
The A1 Pacific Tornado will replace diesel trains on the Settle to Carlisle line between Skipton and Appleby for three days.

Video:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38963632


Made no comment on this item at the time: my position being that – while, sincere good wishes to those whose steam-rail-type scene these doings, are: for various reasons, they’re not mine – it’s a carry-on to which I give a wide berth. I learn from the board “RailUKForums” that within the context, it all went off pretty well.
 
On the very general “heritage-and-fun-railway” topic: but, something from a hundred years ago, suddenly happening to come to mind – which seems to me odd, and of possible interest to avocational students of “the odd”. (Mods, please move if seen appropriate: it’s just that this seems to be the default thread for “whimsical railway stuff”.)


Things which went on in Britain in the midst of World War I, but seemingly a thousand miles removed from that perceivedly desperate war. Chief moving spirit therein, W.J. Bassett-Lowke, model engineer and head of a firm which specialised in producing construction sets, and model railways, boats, and ships. In the mid-1910s, Bassett-Lowke was deeply involved in a project to “take over and make over” the moribund Ravenglass & Eskdale narrow-gauge railway in the Lake District. This entailed altering this line – disused for some years, on its original gauge of 3ft. – to the “miniature” gauge of 15in., and re-equipping it with appropriate miniature steam locos and rolling stock; re-opening it chiefly as a tourist-appeal venture (it also had some freight potential, which was duly taken up). The project began in 1913 / 14: line opened to the public in its new miniature identity, in summer 1915.


Bassett-Lowke went on from there, to a similar project in Wales, at Fairbourne near Barmouth: converting a 2ft gauge horse tramway a couple of miles long, to a 15in. gauge steam-worked railway – reopened as such, in 1916. (Both this line – nowadays on a yet narrower gauge; and the Ravenglass & Eskdale, still 15in. gauge; are busily in traffic today.)


I find it a little bit amazing that this stuff was allowed to happen, all during what was felt to be a horrendous war in which Britain was urgently fighting for its very survival. (I like it, that things were so – but still have trouble believing it.) It seems to run counter to the general stereotype which I, anyway, have of World War I in Britain: everyone other than self-confessed cowards, extreme ideological eccentrics, and (some) degenerates, being very eager to offer themselves to “do their bit”. It surprises me that “the powers that were” allowed WJBL and those working with him, to do their railway-miniaturising-and-operating stuff as they then did; rather than ordering them to “put it on ice” for the duration, and do something useful for the war effort. WJBL, born in 1877, was of – even if oldish – military age in WWI: I have to wonder whether he received white feathers by the bushel; and accusations of treason, and threats of horsewhipping, or indeed of murder (seen as “justified unofficial execution”) from fanatical patriots.


I’ve raised this question on the RailUKForums discussion board: got an answer or two to the effect that at least early in WWI, the impact on the civilian population was not all that huge (such things were different in WWII) – there was no official restriction on taking holidays – thus, still enough tourist traffic available to warrant running the new miniature line. And / or – WJBL’s project with the Ravenglass & Eskdale had begun before the outbreak of war: he already had things on the move, and officialdom nowhere, saw any reason to stop them.


One muses that perhaps the popular vision of “August 1914 syndrome” is exaggerated; or that maybe the concept of “total war” was rather new as at World War I, and people hadn’t fully got the hang of it. I wonder whether, with WJBL up to what he was, and not seeming inclined to stop it just because of current-affairs nonsense; the wartime powers-that-were saw using his doings as a propaganda statement to Germany: “We can beat you lot with one hand tied behind our backs: we’re quite content to have chaps back here messing around with miniature railways in the Lake District and Wales, instead of being up against you on the Western Front...”


I find it delightful, and “two fingers to the Establishment”, that this thing went as it did, a hundred years ago; but it still strikes me as improbable-but-true. Would be interested in anyone’s thoughts.
 
Famous Tornado steam locomotive set to visit Cornwall and Bodmin for the first time
By C_Becquart | Posted: February 24, 2017

Steam train fans across Cornwall are going to love this. An iconic locomotive, which took 14 years to build, is going to visit Cornwall for the very first time in the spring.
Tornado 60163 was built between 1994 and 2008 as a heritage project - the first steam locomotive to be constructed since 1960.
It will be in the county from May 29. The £3m engine is scheduled to bring a charter train to Penzance from London.


Bodmin & Wenford Railway has announced that it has arranged for Tornado to then spend a week at Bodmin.
The locomotive will be operating the normal passenger trains and rail enthusiasts are expected to flock the station to capture the steam engine in all its glory.
A spokesman for the Bodmin & Wenford Railway said: "It will be the biggest engine ever to run on our tracks, and we anticipate a lot of interest and a large demand for tickets."

Tornado, which was completed in 2008, can reach speeds of 75mph. On Valentine's Day the locomotive made the first steam train service in the UK in 50 years on the Settle to Carlisle line.

Graeme Bunker, director of the A1 steam locomotive trust, responsible for running the Tornado, said at the time: "People stand in awe as it goes by. You can see them looking up from their newspapers and iPads, it is like a time machine.
"That is what brings the most joy - seeing that look on their faces."

For the latest updates and to have a chance to get a ticket, click here.

http://www.cornwalllive.com/famous-...e-first-time/story-30159509-detail/story.html

Couple of videos on page.
I'd love to see it coming in to Penzance. Circs permitting, I might try to get down there.
 
the general stereotype which I, anyway, have of World War I in Britain

An interesting sidelight on the period! I have read quite a few pieces recently which claim that our present-day perceptions of the Great War are derived from a few very partial sources, notably the War Poets, who were not greatly appreciated until the 1960s and Oh What a Lovely War! 1962-3 seems to be the date it crystalized, seing the première of Britten's War Requiem and the first performance of the Joan Littlewood musical. In 1964, marking the fiftieth anniversary of the outbreak, the BBC ran a lengthy documentary series which covered the conflict in greater detail - often with the talking heads of participants - but it was the more polemical responses which hit a chord at around the time National Service was ended.

It is known, for instance that popular enthusiasm for the war was short-lived and there was open criticism of Kitchener for the Shell Crisis of 1915. The extent to which other projects were permitted to continue would, most likely, have depended on availaibility of labour and personal connections. It could have been argued that updating old rail infrastructure was vital, though the projects you mention seem remote. :)
 
Last edited:
An interesting sidelight on the period! I have read quite a few pieces recently which claim that our present-day perceptions of the Great War are derived from a few very partial sources, notably the War Poets, who were not greatly appreciated until the 1960s and Oh What a Lovely War! 1962-3 seems to be the date it crystalized, seing the première of Britten's War Requiem and the first performance of the Joan Littlewood musical. In 1964, marking the fiftieth anniversary of the outbreak, the BBC ran a lengthy documentary series which covered the conflict in greater detail - often with the talking heads of participants - but it was the more polemical responses which hit a chord at around the time National Service was ended.

It is known, for instance that popular enthusiasm for the war was short-lived and there was open criticism of Kitchiner for the Shell Crisis of 1915. The extent to which other projects were permitted to continue would, most likely, have depended on availaibility of labour and personal connections. It could have been argued that updating old rail infrastructure was vital, though the projects you mention seem remote. :)


One can indeed get a lopsided picture of the overall scene then, from “popular images of...” ... everyone but a mixed-bag out-of-step very few, desperately eager to “do their bit” in whatever way; twelve-year-olds lying about their age in attempts to join up; idiot biddies dishing out white feathers wholesale and unreflectively... The fact that Britain introduced conscription in 1916, would in itself indicate that there were plenty of people who were reluctant to potentially make the ultimate sacrifice in order to serve their country; so had to be coerced to do same. This country was the oddity here, in thinking conscription distasteful and un-British, and being initially reluctant to implement it; all other WWI participants had conscription as a matter of course.


As you say, much probably depended on the availability of labour and personal connections; and as in all human affairs, there would have been anomalies in plenty. During World War I, “the powers that were” ordered and directed – in the interests of economy -- the closure of a number of very minor and marginal light railways and branch lines, often with their rails being lifted and sent, sometimes together with their locomotives, to the Western Front. (In some of these cases, the lines were reinstated after the war.) This, likely enough, co-existing with seemingly incompatible instances of converting narrow-gauge lines into miniature pleasure railways, maybe indeed under the official pretext of necessary rail-infrastructure updating...


On a personal note – my “family forebears” generally, seem to have been lucky in World War I: so far as I know, few of the males of appropriate age went “into harm’s way”, and those who did, survived pretty much in one piece. Both of my grandfathers would have been theoretically of military age – though on the “oldish” side of that – in WWI (I’m nearly seventy, and my parents were born in the general WWI era). My maternal grandfather had tuberculosis (which in fact killed him some ten years later): he was medically rejected for WWI service. He held progressive views, and considered the war an evil thing, and not of the “necessary” kind – I would guess that he was relieved to have a relatively un-traumatic “out”. I know less about my paternal grandfather, and am not sure what happened to him in the war – only that he was alive and hale and hearty for about thirty years after its end. I do gather that he was a bit of a spiv; I can certainly see him, if compelled to join the armed forces, wangling some way of not being sent into anything dangerous.
 
An interesting sidelight on the period! I have read quite a few pieces recently which claim that our present-day perceptions of the Great War are derived from a few very partial sources, notably the War Poets, who were not greatly appreciated until the 1960s and Oh What a Lovely War! 1962-3 seems to be the date it crystalized, seing the première of Britten's War Requiem and the first performance of the Joan Littlewood musical. In 1964, marking the fiftieth anniversary of the outbreak, the BBC ran a lengthy documentary series which covered the conflict in greater detail - often with the talking heads of participants - but it was the more polemical responses which hit a chord at around the time National Service was ended.

I was stunned when I heard that Blackadder Goes Forth was now considered a history lesson.

I get irritated by the following misrepresentations:

a) That all the Great Powers were more or less equally to blame and war was an accident.
b) That the First World War was the same from beginning to end, and that tactics and weapons didn't evolve.
c) That all soldiers taking part were white/Europeans.
d) The whole of the First World War took place in Europe and anything else is a footnote.
e) That the front lines scarcely moved.
f) That there was a disproportionate quantity of poetry being written.
g) That everybody stopped at Christmas for a kick about.
 
Some time ago there was a motorcycle rally were you had to visit Blessed or Thankful
villages in the UK there are only 13 doubly thankful/blessed ones were all those that
served in both World Wars came home.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fight-return-home-safely-BOTH-world-wars.html

An interesting, and moving read – thanks. Personal note – have actually been to one of the villages concerned – Herbrandston, Pembrokeshire.


Hoping that the following won’t sound cold-blooded – I honestly just like, and am interested in, Ireland and things Irish. Find self a bit surprised that apparently – per the article -- there’s no village in Ireland which lost none of its men in World War I; in view of the circumstance that many Irish Catholics did not identify with Britain as their homeland, and were not eager to fight for it (whilst many others of that persuasion did, then, enlist in the British Army). Could it be that – at least as regards the Irish Republic – the “literal” WWI dead are numbered together with those who died in the concurrent-and-following war of independence against Britain, and in Ireland’s civil war which followed on from that?
 
b) That the First World War was the same from beginning to end, and that tactics and weapons didn't evolve.
My father's research into the death of two of his uncles in WWI came across a harrowing account of a cavalry engagement with enemy machine-guns, although I've not found the source and it wasn't in his papers.
 
Grim, no doubt.

My guess would be that that was relatively early in the war.
 
Grim, no doubt.

My guess would be that that was relatively early in the war.
Indeed. The great-uncles were killed in 1914, their position was over-run and no prisoners were taken. Again I don't have the details, annoyingly for one so fastidious, my father left only the end point of his research and none of the material accumulated getting there. I have a family tree going back 150-200 years and a few scraps of anecdote, but that's all. I tried to persuade him to write stuff down (as much as anything to give him something to do), but to no avail.

My maternal and paternal grandfathers lost two brothers in WW1. One joined the RFC, RAF as it became and the other was prevented from enlisting in 1939 as he was a reserve fireman and so spent his war dealing with the aftermath of bombing raids in Southampton/Portsmouth area. He so bitterly resented this he threw away the medal he was awarded for his service. He never talked about it, save once, when we'd driven out to somewhere north of Pompey for something and he just said, "During the war, that whole area was just flat". With hindsight, I don't think he ever quite got over the experience.
 
I think in 1914 it was not yet 'total war', I don't think that kicked in until mid 15. By 1916 the situation was completely different.

I do share the view, however, that as regards battle tactics we had some very poor generals, on the other hand we were very good at organising supply lines etc, to the extent of building an entire railway system to support the trenches. I've got some information and statistics on that if anyone is interested.

It is strange how WW1, as viewed in British eyes, ignores the devastating effect of WW1 on Russia, Italy, and Austria, among other countries. Despite the grim losses we suffered, we were yet again protected by being an island (and possessing the Royal Navy), from the worst of the war. As we had been in many European wars previously, all the way back to the Hundred Years war. It was the development of aircraft, sped up enormously by WW1, that ended the immunity.
 
Could all these war stories be hived off to a more appropriate thread, leaving this one for the choo-choos?
 
Could all these war stories be hived off to a more appropriate thread, leaving this one for the choo-choos?

I'll gladly start one, called -- say -- "Oddities / anomalies of the World Wars"; if someone with the necessary skill and authority, will do the physical hiving-off.
 
On the very general “heritage-and-fun-railway” topic: but, something from a hundred years ago, suddenly happening to come to mind – which seems to me odd, and of possible interest to avocational students of “the odd”. (Mods, please move if seen appropriate: it’s just that this seems to be the default thread for “whimsical railway stuff”.)


Things which went on in Britain in the midst of World War I, but seemingly a thousand miles removed from that perceivedly desperate war. Chief moving spirit therein, W.J. Bassett-Lowke, model engineer and head of a firm which specialised in producing construction sets, and model railways, boats, and ships. In the mid-1910s, Bassett-Lowke was deeply involved in a project to “take over and make over” the moribund Ravenglass & Eskdale narrow-gauge railway in the Lake District. This entailed altering this line – disused for some years, on its original gauge of 3ft. – to the “miniature” gauge of 15in., and re-equipping it with appropriate miniature steam locos and rolling stock; re-opening it chiefly as a tourist-appeal venture (it also had some freight potential, which was duly taken up). The project began in 1913 / 14: line opened to the public in its new miniature identity, in summer 1915.


Bassett-Lowke went on from there, to a similar project in Wales, at Fairbourne near Barmouth: converting a 2ft gauge horse tramway a couple of miles long, to a 15in. gauge steam-worked railway – reopened as such, in 1916. (Both this line – nowadays on a yet narrower gauge; and the Ravenglass & Eskdale, still 15in. gauge; are busily in traffic today.)


I find it a little bit amazing that this stuff was allowed to happen, all during what was felt to be a horrendous war in which Britain was urgently fighting for its very survival. (I like it, that things were so – but still have trouble believing it.) It seems to run counter to the general stereotype which I, anyway, have of World War I in Britain: everyone other than self-confessed cowards, extreme ideological eccentrics, and (some) degenerates, being very eager to offer themselves to “do their bit”. It surprises me that “the powers that were” allowed WJBL and those working with him, to do their railway-miniaturising-and-operating stuff as they then did; rather than ordering them to “put it on ice” for the duration, and do something useful for the war effort. WJBL, born in 1877, was of – even if oldish – military age in WWI: I have to wonder whether he received white feathers by the bushel; and accusations of treason, and threats of horsewhipping, or indeed of murder (seen as “justified unofficial execution”) from fanatical patriots.


I’ve raised this question on the RailUKForums discussion board: got an answer or two to the effect that at least early in WWI, the impact on the civilian population was not all that huge (such things were different in WWII) – there was no official restriction on taking holidays – thus, still enough tourist traffic available to warrant running the new miniature line. And / or – WJBL’s project with the Ravenglass & Eskdale had begun before the outbreak of war: he already had things on the move, and officialdom nowhere, saw any reason to stop them.


One muses that perhaps the popular vision of “August 1914 syndrome” is exaggerated; or that maybe the concept of “total war” was rather new as at World War I, and people hadn’t fully got the hang of it. I wonder whether, with WJBL up to what he was, and not seeming inclined to stop it just because of current-affairs nonsense; the wartime powers-that-were saw using his doings as a propaganda statement to Germany: “We can beat you lot with one hand tied behind our backs: we’re quite content to have chaps back here messing around with miniature railways in the Lake District and Wales, instead of being up against you on the Western Front...”


I find it delightful, and “two fingers to the Establishment”, that this thing went as it did, a hundred years ago; but it still strikes me as improbable-but-true. Would be interested in anyone’s thoughts.

No train related but building in WWI related. Our public library was built and opened in the middle of WWI, 1916. Which always surprises me that there were people to build it.
 
An interesting sidelight on the period! I have read quite a few pieces recently which claim that our present-day perceptions of the Great War are derived from a few very partial sources, notably the War Poets, who were not greatly appreciated until the 1960s and Oh What a Lovely War! 1962-3 seems to be the date it crystalized, seing the première of Britten's War Requiem and the first performance of the Joan Littlewood musical. In 1964, marking the fiftieth anniversary of the outbreak, the BBC ran a lengthy documentary series which covered the conflict in greater detail - often with the talking heads of participants - but it was the more polemical responses which hit a chord at around the time National Service was ended.

It is known, for instance that popular enthusiasm for the war was short-lived and there was open criticism of Kitchener for the Shell Crisis of 1915. The extent to which other projects were permitted to continue would, most likely, have depended on availaibility of labour and personal connections. It could have been argued that updating old rail infrastructure was vital, though the projects you mention seem remote. :)

I've read a bit and I'd recommend Mud, Blood and Poppycock and have to concur that what we think of the first world war is mostly a construct of later generations totally at odds with the reality of that war. Bit off topic tho sorry.
 
On the demise of streetcars, it was the rise of gasoline powered buses and the private motorcar that did them in. The other problem was the fact that they had little private right of way being out in surface traffic and if anything blocked the tracks, that was it. They could not detour as a bus could. They are coming back in congested downtown areas, but will not be the big thing it once was.

On this note, read up on a 1950 disaster in Chicago involving one of the "Green Hornet" streetcars.

http://www.prairieghosts.com/green_hornet.html
 
On Paxman's River doc. last night he said something to the effect that people like steam trains because they seem alive. I thought that's on the money, all that huffing and puffing, slowing down uphill, various aspiration noises and so on.

Essentially steam trains make noises that seem like noises a big friendly live thing would make. So we like them.
 
You can't just turn a steam locomotive on or off which I think is part of te fascination. Getting one to move at all involves a whole set of skills and equipment, and I think that adds to the experience. There is smell, as well. Hot oil, coal etc.
Yep, they have to be coaxed, encouraged and persuaded, all nicely anthropomorphological.
 
A few years back there was lots of snow round the Skipton area the Diesels could
not get trough on the Skipton Carnforth service they hired a Stanier 8F from Carnforth
Rail Museum to run the service, to expensive to do all the time but when the going
gets tough send for a steamer.
And for anyone interested they have reopened the tea rooms used in the war time film
Close Encounters, best coffee in Christendom.
 
Rail Museum to run the service, to expensive to do all the time but when the going gets tough send for a steamer.
Interesting. I wonder if that's because steam engines have the most torque at low revs, exactly the opposite of any internal combustion engine.
 
The 8F's were built for heavy goods weighed over 72 tones most of that
available for traction tractive force was over 32400 lbf not fast but lots of
grip and pull, so likely better at snow than a Diesel rail car,
Some built for fast freight newspaper trains and the like had a * star under
the number this meant balanced wheels and motion and these could be run
faster at one time BR had over 600 of them.
This was took befor we worried much about a bit of snow or leaves on the line,
when men were men but looked old before there time.

 
You can't just turn a steam locomotive on or off which I think is part of te fascination. Getting one to move at all involves a whole set of skills and equipment, and I think that adds to the experience. There is smell, as well. Hot oil, coal etc.

On streetcars:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy

Thanks for that reference. There are a few streetcar lines in San Francisco and even "Street Buses" that still use the old overhead lines.

On locomotives, I guess it's the Old West kind I saw in movies that gave them the charm I never saw in the commonplace diesel engines.

Can't tell from a silver screen what a steam locomotive involved.
 
Thanks for that reference. There are a few streetcar lines in San Francisco and even "Street Buses" that still use the old overhead lines.

On locomotives, I guess it's the Old West kind I saw in movies that gave them the charm I never saw in the commonplace diesel engines.

Can't tell from a silver screen what a steam locomotive involved.
US locos have a very emotive whistle / hooter that was buried deep in my psyche from American films before I ever heard it for real.
 
Back
Top