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Holocaust Denial

George

You may well be right about this seeing as theres no mention of fascist graffitti.

Ramon
 

Aide to Egyptian President Morsi claims Holocaust a US hoax


A key figure in Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi's government called the Holocaust a hoax cooked up by U.S. intelligence operatives and claimed the 6 million Jews who were killed by Nazis simply moved to the U.S.

The outrageous claims, by Fathi Shihab-Eddim, a senior figure close to President Morsi who is now responsible for appointing the editors of all state-run Egyptian newspapers, came as the world marked Holocaust Remembrance Day on Jan. 27, and also as the U.S. continues to assess its relationship with the increasingly radical Arab state.

"The sad truth is that these views are relatively common in the Arab world and are the result of ignorance on one hand and of government-sponsored Holocaust denial on the other hand.”

- Efraim Zuroff, Simon Weisenthal Center

“The myth of the Holocaust is an industry that America invented,” Shihab-Eddim said, leaving no room for doubt that the Egyptian government -- like Iran's -- has at the very least significant elements that deny one of history's best documented genocides.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/29 ... z2JPy9Qzsd
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a senior figure close to President Morsi who is now responsible for appointing the editors of all state-run Egyptian newspapers
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State-run newspapers with editors appointed by a holocaust denier.
Way to go Morsi.
 
I got as far as the Quiz.

Seems I just got Hitler wrong. :cool:

There are endless problems with Holocaust history. It is deeply problematic: many of the commonly accepted "facts" are disputed by scholarly Jews who deplore the "Holocaust Industry."

Even so, there is no reason to question the Nazi attitude to the Jews or their inhumanity towards them. Like many of my generation, I have met witnesses to the liberation of the camps; they say little except that the films - terrible though they are - give only a pale impression of what they witnessed.

The continuing presentation of Jews as the world's eternal victims is losing its potency as we uncover evidence of holocaust as a feature of life and death in the USSR, China, Cambodia et al. The Biblical narrative is also less resonant than it was.

Denial is not the issue - but holocaust does not appear to be race-specific. :(
 
Xanatic* said:
The holocaust was cold-blooded, industrial genocide though. Which sets it apart from what is otherwise a bit too common in human history.
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There's something in that distinction, I think. I have heard hideous accounts of production-line style executions carried out in the USSR, but there was no deliberate construction of an industrial infrastructure devoted to killing - they made use of what was to hand. Millions were killed in summary executions, and many died in the Gulag, to be sure, but the camps were ostensibly labour camps, not death camps. It's not much of a distinction, I grant you, and in practice no-one in positions of authority seemed to care whether individual prisoners in the camps lived or died, but I still think it a distinction worth mentioning.

On the other hand, is it better or worse that there was little ideology underpinning the killing, and that the Soviet meat grinder sucked in its raw material pretty much at random, as opposed to Nazi Germany selecting its victims more "rigourously", on grounds of spurious "undesirable" criteria? It's a loathsome question to even ask.

Also... the scholarly estimates I am aware of seem to agree that about 20 million Soviet citizens died at the hands of their own state. That is the same amount as died during an industrial war waged upon them by an enemy that considered them sub-human. Let me repeat that: as many were killed by their own state as by an enemy state that considered them untermenschen. So arguing whether or not you can call the Soviet terror "industrial genocide" is like guessing how many angels might dance on the head of a pin - it's kind of missing the point.
 
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"being anti-Israel IS NOT being anti-semitic"

I would be wary of that statement. Many anti-Semites, particularly of the hard left, try to disguise their bigotry behind the flag of convenience of "anti-zionism". That simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny though, as it means they would deny the Jewish people the right to self-determination. Anyone who supports Palestinian statehood (I.e the Palestinian direct equivalent of zionism) but opposes zionism is a definite anti-semite.
 
My dad was a para in WW2 and his only action was after the war in Europe had ended; he was in Palestine, and apparently some people thought the Brits weren't setting up Israel fast enough. He was the radio operator during what looks like carnage. He took some photos of the aftermath it looks like the deck of a ship I'm not sure - am not sure that was even legal that he took pictures, but I have them and they are a record. They were discouraged from talking about it with anyone.

I have no time for Holocaust deniers. Whilst dad was in Palestine, his dad had been fighting in Europe and my grandad was a sargeant amongst those West Yorkshires who were there at the liberation of Belsen. My grandad was as tough as nails - the hardest person you can imagine - he'd been right through WW1, starting with the First Day of the Somme and managed to be right through WW2 as well as he was in the TA. So basically, he was a firsthand witness to some of the more unimaginable days in 20thC European history. He was in London during the Blitz - on fire-watch which he told his brother, was worse than being in the trenches. The one thing he would never, ever discuss with anyone - not even his son who was also a soldier - what he saw at Belsen.

A few years ago we went to Eden Camp with the kids and on one display I found a letter written by another man in my grandad's actual battalion; describing what the found at Belsen. My husband and kids found me standing there with tears just pouring down my face as I read it because this soldier described all the things grandad had refused to tell another soul on earth about. And I finally knew what it was he saw and experienced. Anyone who denies the Holocaust should be forced to read that letter.
 
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...nning-david-irving-books-university-libraries

Whether or not to remove David Irving's books from public libraries.

In short, no.

I have read one of his books (The War Between The Generals) and although it is slightly exaggerated in places it's a solid work. And, as everybody offers in his defence, it relies on good research and mining new and little-known sources. The holocaust is not mentioned in this title, which focuses on the squabbling between Allied political and military leaders.
 
It's important to distinguish between Holocaust Deniers and historians who are not denying the Holocaust but trying to get all the details right. I find it disappointing that it is so often presented as if only Jews were the victims, when many other people 'undesirable' to the Nazi state were pumped into the same system of industrial genocide. Gypsies and homosexuals, for example. (How the heck did Goering, above all, live with himself?)

I do think the mechanism that Xanatic described as 'Industrial' , which I have adopted, does make it somehow even more ghastly than other genocides, or even other concentration camp systems. The idea that some SS bureaucrat would have been happily considering alternative tenders for mass cremation ovens is truly horrifying.
 
The terror of the Nazis extended to sending people who looked or acted "a bit funny" to the death camps too, anyone who didn't fit in was labelled an undesirable, excuses were invented by the community (or just an unfriendly neighbour or two) to get rid of them, and they were sent away and executed.

But this doesn't change the fact that Jews were overwhelmingly the victims, and are entirely justified in voicing their concerns that antisemitism should be stopped in its tracks when there's such an enormity in history to prove how it can lay waste to millions of innocent people.
 
Cochise said:
... I do think the mechanism that Xanatic described as 'Industrial' , which I have adopted, does make it somehow even more ghastly than other genocides, or even other concentration camp systems. The idea that some SS bureaucrat would have been happily considering alternative tenders for mass cremation ovens is truly horrifying.
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I've been privileged to meet and discuss this with a history professor who was a consulting member of the commission formed to evaluate war crimes and track down war criminals. The evidence of the atrocities we usually see is awful enough, to be sure, but ...

The evidence for how the Nazi authorities treated it like any large-scale government-run enterprise is something I found even more disturbing, once I'd seen it.

For example, the SS kept detailed accounting records for those who were 'transported' by rail, including tallies of fees for the transport services which were allegedly to be levied against the victims' confiscated possessions. There were also detailed records maintained for ensuring the rail authority was properly reimbursed for their service.

I also saw copies of the engineering documents for both later-generation gas chambers and cremation apparatus as well as bid and contract documentation from companies willing to supply / equip the death camps on a 'business' basis. If you paid no attention to the project's objectives (which were often hidden between the lines or under vague euphemisms) the documentation could have pertained to any public works effort.

From start to finish the administration of the final solution was a textbook exercise in rational management practices, and this chills me as much as the gruesome results.
 
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blessmycottonsocks said:
"being anti-Israel IS NOT being anti-semitic"

I would be wary of that statement. Many anti-Semites, particularly of the hard left, try to disguise their bigotry behind the flag of convenience of "anti-zionism". That simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny though, as it means they would deny the Jewish people the right to self-determination. Anyone who supports Palestinian statehood (I.e the Palestinian direct equivalent of zionism) but opposes zionism is a definite anti-semite.
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In USA it's almost considered anti-semitic just to support the Palestinians. I've seen reactions against celebs in USA supporting the Palestinians.
 
From Wikipedia:

Jews 5-6 million [1]
Poles 1.8–3 million [2][3][4]
Soviet Slavs 6 million [5]
Soviet POWs 2.8–3.3 million [6]
Serbs 300,000–600,000 [7][8]
Disabled 270,000 [9]
Romani 130,000–500,000 [10][11]
Freemasons 80,000–200,000 [12][13]
Slovenes 20,000–25,000 [14]
Homosexuals 5,000–15,000 [15]
Jehovah's
Witnesses 1,250–5,000 [16]
Spanish Republicans 7,000

I doubt the Soviet POW's all went through the concentration camps / execution camps, but most of the others would have done. It's not true to say that Jewish people were overwhelmingly the victims - well it depends what you mean by 'overwhelmingly', I suppose. 6 million out of 12-17 million - but of those others 6-9 million were from the Eastern Bloc and for a long time were forgotten about by Western historians.

There is some double or triple counting above, for example a victim might be a homosexual Polish Jew (and would have had the appropriate indications on their 'zebra' clothing if not selected for immediate 'euthanasia').

They have not included German dissidents and criminals or the elimination of German mental patients, or smaller groups such as people of colour.

Full Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims
 
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EnolaGaia said:
I've been privileged to meet and discuss this with a history professor who was a consulting member of the commission formed to evaluate war crimes and track down war criminals. The evidence of the atrocities we usually see is awful enough, to be sure, but ...

The evidence for how the Nazi authorities treated it like any large-scale government-run enterprise is something I found even more disturbing, once I'd seen it.

For example, the SS kept detailed accounting records for those who were 'transported' by rail, including tallies of fees for the transport services which were allegedly to be levied against the victims' confiscated possessions. There were also detailed records maintained for ensuring the rail authority was properly reimbursed for their service.

I also saw copies of the engineering documents for both later-generation gas chambers and cremation apparatus as well as bid and contract documentation from companies willing to supply / equip the death camps on a 'business' basis. If you paid no attention to the project's objectives (which were often hidden between the lines or under vague euphemisms) the documentation could have pertained to any public works effort.

From start to finish the administration of the final solution was a textbook exercise in rational management practices, and this chills me as much as the gruesome results.
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The 2001 film, Conspiracy, based on the Wannsee Conference where the mechanics of the Final Solution were thrashed out among top-level Nazis, is a pretty good depiction of the full horror of the matter-of-fact industrialisation of the Holocaust .
 
Can strongly recommend David Baddiel's BBC2 documentary about Holocaust denial, not just because he's a top bloke and a lucid thinker, but because it examines with great clarity the threat of this belief that has seen 1 in 6 across the world currently questioning or disbelieving in the Holocaust.

He makes the point that even "soft" denial, querying the facts that have been so well researched and documented, is an insidious form of anti-Semitism. The Facebook interview was very worrying, and made me hate that site even more. The ending is very emotional, especially after David meets a complete moron denier. On iPlayer.
 
One pertinent point is often left out of the shocking history of the WWII genocide.

The fact that organised killing of people deemed not worthy of life started with disabled children in October 1939.

Known after the conflict as Aktion T-4, it even continued after VE day, the last recorded killing being 29th May 1945.

Many techniques for mass-murder were trialled and researched on disabled people, going from lethal injections to carbon monoxide poisoning to gas chambers. Some larger asylum-hospitals had crematoria installed.

The results directly influenced the methods used at later death camps.

Here is a poster from late 1930's Germany:


EuthanasiePropaganda
Nazi party / Public domain

The text reads "60,000 Reichsmark is what this person suffering from a hereditary illness costs the People's community during his lifetime. Fellow citizen, that is your money too."

I have heard similar comments in my own lifetime, and I always wonder if the speaker should find themselves suddenly disabled (as can happen to anyone, anywhere at any time) or have a disabled child if they would think of the financial cost as the prime issue.

There is a good wikipedia article here (warning, it is disturbing) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4
 
I am staggered at the amount of Holocaust denial that goes on; actually I'm staggered that it exists at all. I shouldn't be surprised but I am – I studied German history at university and my family have German friends whose parents were murdered (I nearly wrote 'died' but that wouldn't be as accurate) in one of the death camps, Auschwitz I think. To imagine that these things can be blithely explained away is sickening.

Since university I haven't been able to watch documentaries on the Holocaust; I've read on it extensively, seen documentaries that I can't unsee even though I'd like to; I've been to Belsen, which even when I was there – in the 1970s or 80s on a German exchange – it had an atmosphere that felt crushing – as if the Earth itself was in mourning.

I may just brave the David Baddiel documentary.
 
JamesWhitehead said:
Denial is not the issue - but holocaust does not appear to be race-specific. :(
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Perhaps a better way to put it is that genocide isn't race-specific. The holocaust refers to a single specific historical genocide episode. As you say, it is one of many, and far from the worst. That dubious honor goes to the Muslim invasion of India.
 
AnonyJoolz said:
One pertinent point is often left out of the shocking history of the WWII genocide.

The fact that organised killing of people deemed not worthy of life started with disabled children in October 1939.

Known after the conflict as Aktion T-4, it even continued after VE day, the last recorded killing being 29th May 1945.

Many techniques for mass-murder were trialled and researched on disabled people, going from lethal injections to carbon monoxide poisoning to gas chambers. Some larger asylum-hospitals had crematoria installed.

The results directly influenced the methods used at later death camps.

Here is a poster from late 1930's Germany:


EuthanasiePropaganda
Nazi party / Public domain

The text reads "60,000 Reichsmark is what this person suffering from a hereditary illness costs the People's community during his lifetime. Fellow citizen, that is your money too."

I have heard similar comments in my own lifetime, and I always wonder if the speaker should find themselves suddenly disabled (as can happen to anyone, anywhere at any time) or have a disabled child if they would think of the financial cost as the prime issue.

There is a good wikipedia article here (warning, it is disturbing) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4
Click to expand...

Gives a whole new angle on 'bed-blocking' that's for sure. the trouble is, I wonder how long it occurs to some darn bureaucratic today as being a good idea. Of course they'd dress it up more subtly. Well, maybe.

Actually, would we even know? Thinking about some recent NHS scandals -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Care_Pathway_for_the_Dying_Patient

That obviously was 'sold' to the medical staff as a good thing to do, and they mostly obeyed orders. Still do, maybe.

I hate the human race sometimes. Quite a lot of the time, in fact. except of course for us lot.
 
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