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Is Homosexuality On The Increase?

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Anonymous

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Its been reported that here in Ireland a large and growing amount of young men are committing suicide over the issue of their sexuality.Trinity College research also indicates that 33% of marriages are breaking up over this issue;(Prof.Patricia Casey).In addition every new bar coming on stream in Dublin is marketed as having a "mixed crowd"and is "straight friendly".
Whats going on?Is it a tiny percentage of the population as most like to believe or is everyone capable of homosexual behaviour and is therefore a lifestyle choice?Is it something in the water?

Discuss please!
 
Sounds like scare-mongering to me from right wingers. 33% of marriages? Very unlikely.

Signs in bars could be due to a perceived Irish puritanicalism, that is bars feel they need to say this more than English ones, I dunno.
 
Nah; it's always been there. Used to be all the rage in Athens and Rome...
 
I think that you'll find that you are mixing up two different things here.

First of all homosexuality has always run at a fairly steady rate of about 1 in 10 of the population at large.

Now thing about that in a large country, where there is a bias and a friendly haven. Incidence in the haven is huge becuase it draws gays there.

I think what you'll find is on the increase is willingness to come out, but becuase there are still many social stigmas there, acceptance is still low and the problems you speak of result.

And if you don't beleive me, check out the Front Lounge on Parliament St. in Dublin. It is a sort of straight friendly place!

Its great cause us straight people can go to these places and soak up the atmosphere of party bent (delicious pun) people who are less inhibited.




LD
 
Hmmm...homosexuality may have been all the rage in Athens and Sparta, but why is it so rare in Black Africa? Or indeed, is it so rare in Black Africa? I have certainly heard this.
If it was genuinely on the increase anywhere, I would guess that would be quite Fortean, cos why should it increase? Unless there are certain cultural factors which can trigger it. Perhaps it's a meme or something.

Bill Robinson
 
Big Bill Robins said:
why is it so rare in Black Africa? Or indeed, is it so rare in Black Africa
Click to expand...

I know a big part is lack of education, but you're mentioning
a continent where AIDS is absolutely rampant. Think about it.

TVgeek
 
All the material I have read on AIDS in Africa insists that most transmission was by
heterosexual relations, though there may have been some reluctance to spell
out that birth-control considerations led a lot of African ladies to bite their
pillows. I don't think we can take seriously the notion that some races or societies
are gay-free - China used to claim to be and Mao insisted that it was a Western
perversion. The degree of overtly gay behaiviour is going to be determined by the
prevailing social mores.

Anyone who thinks homosexuality is a recent invention should visit this site for an
eye-opening tour of some English history I never learned in school:
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/eighteen.htm


Right that's the serious stuff, now for some smut . . .

I was slightly startled to read that necrophilia and bestiality will be made illegal in proposed new legislation. Those wishing to do a two-fer and seduce a dead dog should
do so quickly, while the charges will probably be only outraging pubic decency and disturbing a pet cemetary.

Anyway, with this whole yummy chocolate box of perversions from which to choose, it might be a good time for yet another sexuality test. After all, you never know who you will snog at the next orifice bash.

Research has shown that the peak time for anxieties about one's sexuality
occur on the mornings after excessive alcohol indulgence. The realisation
that something is breathing on the pillow alongside you can be very alarming,
when you haven't the foggiest memory of what on earth it could be.

Here is the side-of-the-bed test, if you are not ready to turn over boldly
and confront your love of the night. This test may not make things better but
it does allow you to weather the shock by degrees. It is based on the simple
premise that what you see by the side of the bed may offer some clues as to
what you have successfully bedded.

Here are some classic cases:

1: A pair of evil trainers and a baseball cap. Don't panic! You may just be a
poor woman with a low-grade husband. If you are a man, you must picture
a worst-case scenario in which you have just slept with Michael Moore. This leaves
room for a sigh of relief when you discover that you have only slept with a 73
year old newspaper-vendor with Alzheimer's Disease - but at least she was female! 100% Straight!

2: A soil-covered spade and a half-dead terrier. This means that your
badger-baiting expedition led to a serious encounter. If there is no terrier,
no sign of badger-breath on your neck and you dimly remember scrambling in an
soil-scented hole, then you may have unearthed an old flame. This is usually a
very bad thing - unless you have been very quick off the mark. 100% Necro!

3: A Bishop's Crozier & Mitre. Unless you actually are a Bishop, you must phone Childline straight away as you are almost certainly under sixteen years of age. 100% Paedo!

4: Your chest is full of scratches and there's a saucer of milk by the bed. You are
clearly a real pussy-man! 100% Bestial!

5: A labrador harness and a white stick. You have been hanging around the
Blind Home again. If it's just the harness and a pair of scissors, then you have been
going there with clear intent. 100% Opportunist.

6: A solitary damp sock. Business as usual or you chased a one-legged man through a puddle. And caught him! 100% Successful.

7: A hard hat and a full Native American headdress. Brace yourself, as you may have bedded half of the Village People. 100% Gay. NB: This rises to 200% Gay, if the rest of the Village People have left their hats on the other side of your bed.

Sorted. So now you know. As for how glad you are - that needs another test entirely.
 
Location, Location, Location

In small burgs, everyone knows your business, so staying in the closet would probably prove difficult at best. So homosexuals flock to larger metropolitan areas, and also to resort areas, where there is a large transient population. New York, San Francisco, Toronto, Puerto Vallarta, London, Dublin...The larger and more cosmop the city, the less likely it is that people are going to be concerned about what their neighbors are doing.

I recall overhearing at a sidewalk cafe in Puerto Vallarta (and this was spoken in an almost parody of a gay accent) "Every gay man I know in Toronto, I met in a threesome in Puerto Vallarta". I wasn't sure if I should laugh or be shocked.

And I suspect that the "33%" figure may be something more like "33% of all divorces in Dublin are due to homosexual infidelity" and not 33% of all marriages fail due to this specific reason.
 
Big Bill Robins said:
Hmmm...homosexuality may have been all the rage in Athens and Sparta, but why is it so rare in Black Africa? Or indeed, is it so rare in Black Africa? I have certainly heard this.
If it was genuinely on the increase anywhere, I would guess that would be quite Fortean, cos why should it increase? Unless there are certain cultural factors which can trigger it. Perhaps it's a meme or something.

Bill Robinson
Click to expand...


It's not that it's triggered by cultural factors, it's that cultural factors sway the statistic.

I have a copy of the Pink Paper somewhere in the house (But god knows where and it could take months to find it, so I'm afraid I'll have to paraphrase) with an Amnesty International report on torture/imprisonment/execution/persecution of homosexuals all over the world. It would appear even the death penalty doesn't deter it, so it's hardly a permissive Western phenomenon.

As for black Africa, well, the only way one is going to be able to do a survey on homosexuality is to ask; "Have you ever had a homosexual experience?" In a country where this has a stigma attached, the person you ask is likely to lie if they have. Also, there's homosexual attraction and then there's homosexual acts. One can feel the first without doing the second. If you grow up in a country where you learn that it's Not Right, you're not so likely to act on your attractions, or to be able to find someone to act on them with. Also, you're not encouraged to even entertain the idea for a moment, which in this culture (or at least the part of it I live in), you are. People are far more likely to give you an honest answer when they don't fear being stoned to death.


As for what TVgeek said about AIDs, I'm not sure what you're implying so I won't be going off on one, except to say; I don't see how that's relevant.
 
Slytherin, you made my exact point much more eloquently
than my clumsy post. My point was exactly that: cultural
stigmas. My apologies.
TVgeek
 
Re the question of homosexuality in black Africa - it takes on a slightly different form there. Many African men are migrant labourers and, on the mines in South Africa at least, they are housed in male only hostels while at work. The reason it is believed that AIDS spread so rapidly there was because these men were having man on man sex in the hostels and going home at weekends/holidays and having sex with their wives and girlfriends. Whilst these men are not strictly speaking gay(same argument that sailors use) they have a need when away from their wives/girlfriends which they indulge with other men with similar needs. It only takes one HIV positive guy to fairly rapidly infect a large proportion of a hostel's population.

The local authorities in South Africa figured this out and there has been a move toward providing family accommodation on the mines over the past few years.
 
Overpopulation

It only makes sense to me (from an evolutionary standpoint) that in a world that is becoming more and more dangerously overpopulated, human beings will have little or no need to reproduce at a fast rate, therefor, more and more of us would look to find love in other ways than the standard male/female relationship. This has always been my answer to why some people are gay. Any thoughts?
 
Bosbaba,

while the phenonemnon you have described in the mining hostels may be true, I think your find from a virological point of view, that the biggest reason for the spread of AIDS through Africa was not homosexuality, but the combination of a social acceptance of straight prostitution and a strip of tarmac called the Kinshasa Highway.

Check the book, Hot Zone where the CDC study on African AIDS found that the predominance of brothels around the highway, the traffic volume on it of mainly truck drivers on long haul, coupled with the lack of health care, made the initial spread, or burn of the virus a certainty.

I think you will also fin that currently in Ireland, as is so un the UK, the heterosexual figures for AIDS show the largest growth in risk groups is among intravenous drug users and young heterosexuals.

LD
 
If you've read the Forever War, Homosexuality ends up as Earths solution to the problem of over population. It worked a treat!
 
Bosbaba said:
Re the question of homosexuality in black Africa - it takes on a slightly different form there. Many African men are migrant labourers and, on the mines in South Africa at least, they are housed in male only hostels while at work. The reason it is believed that AIDS spread so rapidly there was because these men were having man on man sex in the hostels and going home at weekends/holidays and having sex with their wives and girlfriends. Whilst these men are not strictly speaking gay(same argument that sailors use) they have a need when away from their wives/girlfriends which they indulge with other men with similar needs. It only takes one HIV positive guy to fairly rapidly infect a large proportion of a hostel's population.
Click to expand...

But it doesn't take a homosexual. Pardon me, but unless you can provide proof that this isn't bigoted scare-mongering put forth by people who automatically assume AIDS must somehow be related to homosexuality, then I don't believe it.

Said migrant workers, if they are responsible at all, could just have easily have caught it from the local girls and then brought it home. AIDS spreads through the heterosexual population just as quickly, if they don't use protection. (And damn, even if you know you should use a condom, you try and get hold of one in some of the poorer areas of the continent.)

How ever universal homosexual practises may be, they're still in the minority compared to heterosexual goings-on. I'm not saying AIDs doesn't pass from man to man, but it's a bit unfair to blame the epidemic entirely on them, and also unnecessary. There's plenty of straight people to spread it around.

So, basically, what lorddrakul said. :)
 
I do not blame the spread of AIDS on the homosexual community -I don't believe I said that anywhere in my posting. I wrote that post as a response to another which queried the presence or extent of homosexuality in Africa. From a puratanical point of view any male having sexual relations with another male is a homosexual, I was trying to point out that this is not necessarily true.

Today in the world the incidence of AIDS is more prevalent in the heterosexual community and here in Ireland the recent statistics showed a higher increase in that sector of the community than under the homosexual community, in South Africa it was argued that this change was the result of a greater awareness of the risks amongst homosexual men and the corresponding care they took to have protected sex whereas in the heterosexual community the social awareness is still pretty low and more chances are taken.

The problem I related with regards to the mines in South Africa is information I received through official sources and was shared as a possible explanation for the rapid spread of the disease through that particular country - I have no doubt the same would hold true for the Copper Belt in Zambia and probably some of the larger diamond mines in Namibia and northern South Africa.

I don't consider sharing this information as scaremongering - it is merely a statement of proven fact and the bit that most seem to have ignored was where I posted the solution that the mines implemented and the fact that this has proven successful to some degree. I cannot comment on the nature of the spread of the disease throughout the rest of Africa as my experiences there only extend to South Africa, Namibia, Zimbabwe, Zambia and Zaire. Statistics for Zaire/Belgian Congo/Dem. Rep. Congo are sketchy and unreliable and Zimbabwe has made homosexuality a punishable offence.

Cape Town apparently now has the largest gay scene on the continent and I have no doubt that the gay community in Africa is as large and vibrant as elsewhere in the world. A large proportion of the gay scene would be underground though as this practise is not socially acceptable in many countries. It is something that has only recently been considered socially acceptable in South Africa, before 1990 there were not many gay bars and clubs in South Africa, now they are present in most larger cities. In rural areas it would still be difficult to come out and I would suspect a strong case for closet gays there and in other parts of Africa.
 
In a label obsessed world, it is not surprising that lots of men
have tried to avoid the stigmas imagined to come with a "gay"
or "homosexual" identity. Public health workers have for some time
avoided these terms and used the rather blunter MSM - men who
have sex with men.

It may be that the days of cottage round-ups are over but whenever
these dismal cases were published in the local papers the plea was
usually, "I don't know why I did it, Your Honour. I've been happily
married for twenty years and have three kiddies." Probably an hour
in the park toilet was a nice quiet break, then.

I doubt if we can believe any statistics in this area. The word I hear
more and more often among young people is "curious". With the
removal of discriminatory laws and greater social acceptance, it may
be that the "Forest-fire effect" forecast by illiberal alarmists may
take off. Though I do know of cases where people previously identifying
themselves as gay have taken up with partners of the opposite sex.

:confused:
 
Bosbaba, I apologise for pouncing, but I tend to become a militant member of the left-wing moral police whenever homosexuality is discussed. But it irks me that nearly every time I see it discussed, AIDS gets mentioned. You point out quite rightly that AIDS is more prevalent in the heterosexual community.

However, I still don't accept the migrant workers dabbling in homosexuality is in anyway a major cause of the rapid spread of the epidemic in South Africa. (or, anywhere else in Africa for that matter) As you know, AIDS spreads just as easily through unprotected heterosexual sex as homosexual, and as the vast majority of sexual acts taking place in South Africa are heterosexual ones, I see no reason to look anywhere else for a major influence on the spread of the disease. Not to say it isn't true about what these workers get up to; it probably is, but it's more of an incidental part of the epidemic than an actual cause.

And I'm afraid that it's "information I recieved through official sources" is not enough to make me accept it. It just leaves me wondering who your sources are, what makes them official, and why you didn't just say who they were. (Oh, and you say it's a "possible explanation" in one paragraph, and then a "proven fact" in the next ) Please do elaborate, but I will still dispute it on the grounds that it can only be a theory, and theories are subject to the prejudices of those who make them. (I'm not implying you're prejudiced, as I know it's not your theory.)
 
I think it is so sad that in this day and age homosexuals should still feel afraid to come out of the closet. I was reading the other day about some guy who went to washinton with his 6 (or some really large number) of children with him, so he and his family could "protest homosexuality". The fact that someone could be spreading that kind of hate and ignorance down to their offspring makes me sick to my stomach. I can only pray those kids find a way to open their hearts later in life.
 
Official Sources - National healthcare and the health clinics on the individual mines - including the former Western Deep Levels mine and the mine that my uncle used to own(since closed down).

I also worked with a community health project and it was a common discussion amongst them what went on in the hostels. You may not accept that this is a significant contributing factor to the spread of AIDS in South Africa but I personally think it is. I am not condemning anyone by saying this. In one place it would be prostitution, on the mines it happens to be male on male sex. It allows for the reasonably rapid spread of the disease through the country as you get men working there from all over rural South Africa whose only contact with people outside of their villages is the men on the mines. Which means a HIV positive man from Pretoria can easily infect men from the Orange Free State, Mpumulanga, Natal, Eastern Cape - four different sexual partners - who then go and infect their wives/girlfriends and then on to their children. Admittedly prostitution is a larger contributory factor in most of Africa and South Africa but given the set up in rural parts of South Africa and the relative remoteness of the mines to urban centres(unless you have a car or reliable public transport) it is safe to assume that man on man sex in the hostels assumes a greater role in the spread of the disease in certain parts of South Africa than it otherwise would.

I do still have family that work on the mines and friends that are actively involved in providing education and medical care to African women in rural areas so yes, I do have some insight into the problems there.

I have no hidden agenda toward the homosexual community - I find that by and large they are more responsible in using protection during sexual intercourse than heterosexuals are these days.

In Africa for a host of different reasons, contraceptives are not very popular amongst the male populace, although more and more women are making use of them and where possible are encouraging their partners to do the same, it is a battle that will not be won overnight.
 
I'm not accusing you of having any kind of agenda at all, Bosbaba. Considering my own preferences, I'm the one with the agenda here.

Thanks for the further info. You said yourself prostitution is a larger contributing factor in most of Africa and South Africa. As such, you must agree that these areas you refer to make up only a small part of the epidemic, and that -by my count at least- doesn't make it a significant factor in the spread across the country as a whole. Certainly not "THE reason it is believed AIDS spread so rapidly" (emphasis mine, natch) as you said in your original post.

Originally posted by MsClaireVoyant
I was reading the other day about some guy who went to washinton with his 6 (or some really large number) of children with him, so he and his family could "protest homosexuality".
Click to expand...


Well, you know what some people say about homophobes. Maybe having so many kids is his way of over-compensating. :D
 
There may be something in this as for example,when Ronald Reagan was Governor of California he introduced family caravans in the grounds of the state prisons in order to try and cut down the number of male rapes in the institutions.Also when serving with the UN in Europe members of the Jordanian army are quite open in discussing their sex antics with their fellow soldiers(all mala)to reduce their homseickness for their wives back home.It appears that "Western "society and vatican dogmas made it the great sin and suppressed all rational discussion on human sexuality.Dont mention of course the infamous sex parties within the hallowed institution in Rome involving those young good looking members of the Swiss Guard!
 
On the subject of the mine workers: it is not the sex of the second partner but their HIV status that is the desiding factor.

Why are gay men and AIDS being linked so often on this thread? AIDs is no longer called GRID but still gay men such as myself are harased both verbaly and physicaly by people who see such a link.

Indeed it is a link saw not only in the conciousness of individuals but also in the thniking of major bodies. A case in point: I would love to help in the christmass blood drive but because I engage in 'homosexual acts' I am not alowed to give blood. There is no diferentiation between engaging in protected or unprotected sex, just in who you fuck.

I personaly find the focusing on the sex of the sexual partners in the mine workers case study to itself be preduiced and homophobic. Is the gender of who is fucking or being fucked so inportent?
 
Its funny how this has now evolved into a discussion on the advancement of AIDS rather than the original "Homosexuality on the increase?" topic.

Anyways, back on topic.

I personally feel that the reason homosexuality has "increased" is due to the softening of views that to be homosexual is wrong.
This has allowed people to be more open about their feelings without the fear of ridicule or hatred. Therefore the amount of people who register themselves as being openly homosexual, rather than hiding it, has increased.

To say that there are more people who are homosexual I think is wrong. To realise that more people are accepting they are gay rather than trying to repress their sexual tendencies is more on the ball. And people are more willing to explore their sexuality rather than sticking to the whole "get married and have a family" attitude.

In the end, its all down to statistics. But we all know the 59.5% of statistics are made up anyways.

But thats just my opinion. :p
 
Nonbeliever said:
Its funny how this has now evolved into a discussion on the advancement of AIDS rather than the original "Homosexuality on the increase?" topic.

Anyways, back on topic.

I personally feel that the reason homosexuality has "increased" is due to the softening of views that to be homosexual is wrong.
This has allowed people to be more open about their feelings without the fear of ridicule or hatred. Therefore the amount of people who register themselves as being openly homosexual, rather than hiding it, has increasd.
Click to expand...

But then the topic of theoretical constructions and what they say about the constructer is surely fortean?

Truth as a biast entity only serving to reinforce your own belief structure? SO fortean.

But to get back on topic...I agree that homosexuality is more acepted and this is why more people are coming out. And all for the better!
 
It appears from reading biographies of Oscar Wilde that he chose,in his mid-thirties,to become homosexual.Prior to this he was a happily married man with two children and there is no evidence whatsoever that he engaged in sex with other men.It seems he contracted syphillis in early life from a prostitute and in order not to infect his wife turned to obtaining relief with other guys.It seems also his great love,Bosie,went the opposite way and converted to to heterosexuality after the age of thirty and married and had a son.He claimed never to have reverted to other men in the remaining 45 years of his life.

Does all this point to the fact that it is indeed a lifestyle choice and depending on the prevailing circumstances,both socially and personally,the man can switch,suddenly and then perhaps change back again.

Whatever about the nitty-griity of the explanation,the fact remains that Ireland is showing the highest rate(outside Africa)of hiv infection and all 4 main STDs are on the increase.The weekly clinics at 2 major Dublin hospitals are bursting at the seems with young men who have contracted something nasty.Yet the education system continues to churn out dogma relating to ancient history and cruelly ignores modern day realities.

Come back Oscar,you would not recognise the place!
 
Themainman said:
Does all this point to the fact that it is indeed a lifestyle choice and depending on the prevailing circumstances,both socially and personally,the man can switch,suddenly and then perhaps change back again.

Whatever about the nitty-griity of the explanation,the fact remains that Ireland is showing the highest rate(outside Africa)of hiv infection and all 4 main STDs are on the increase.The weekly clinics at 2 major Dublin hospitals are bursting at the seems with young men who have contracted something nasty.Yet the education system continues to churn out dogma relating to ancient history and cruelly ignores modern day realities.
Click to expand...

I don't know where I stand on the 'lifestyle choice' argument. It has positive aspects but also negitive ones.

Another explanation for 'switching' may be that some people are inherently conservitive and feal that their sexuality is an aboration (Bossie was VERRY rite wing in his views.) It may be a desire to be acepted by the population at large that drives meny men and women to renounce their sexuality and others to mask it for their whole life.

On the subject of STDs: sure they are on the increse but this isn't the falt of gay men but of idiots who don't practice safe sex.
 
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