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Is It A Boy Or A Girl?

VQ, much that I have little respect for gender psychiatry and even less for evangelicals, my point is that this person doesn't ever seem to want to stop and admit where they had choices or where they made misjudgements. Perhaps it was harsh of me to say that they ~want~ to be a victim, but as long as they won't accept responsibility for themself they will be one.

It isn't just this particular case that I'm talking about. Every time we hear of an ex-trans we hear the same thing, it was the doctors fault, not theirs, if their life has been damaged it wasn't their fault, even if they'd really spent the previous 2 years telling said psych how they'd felt like a woman all along.

In an interview last year, Dr Reid was quoted as saying that with the amount of information now available on the internet, his patients could be so well informed that he could no longer be certain who actually was transsexual and who was 'faking' as it were. And now he's being sued by, among others, some mad Iraqi who has the splendidly naive defence of "when a doctor says that you need an operation you don't question that".

My observation here was that this ex-ex-trans seems to have a continuation of the same argument, where it's always someone elses fault.

I am not denying the fact that this person got used. They however are denying the fact that they allowed themselves to be used, or that they could have done otherwise. The only way that someone gets to really seriously f*ck you over is when you've let them and haven't realised. But this person just will not realise, and they will go on repeating the same patterns over and over.
 
<shrugs>

But of course its always the negative stories we hear....

Just out of curiosity, out of those 400 or so operations per annum, how many are eventualy regretted??

a small percentage I bet
 
I'd seriously doubt that there's any reliable follow up that could give us that information HA, and there's so many people with agendas that it would be difficult to do without someone trying to skew it in their favour.


.
I'd have thought you'd have defended them but insted you seem more interested in your ideals than what they feal.
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You know VQ, I've been called a transphobe recently because I critisised trans people on the Big Brother board for using the board for some rather rank self promotion.

A while back I was called patriarchal by an allegedly IS person for disagreeing with their theory that sexual equality exists purely because women won't stand up for themselves.

Oh, and a trans woman likened me to the Spanish Inquisition (vs her as Copernicus) for daring to suggest that research on 'brainsex' was anything less than 100% conclusive.

So now I'm an ideologist too?

There's a pattern emerging here every time that we discuss these kind of stories. The trans person who was banned from the bar, your friend who was outed by the press, and now this one. Every time you seem to be saying that the trans person was 100% a totally innocent victim hounded by evil transphobes, and you seem to have a real problem with the notion that they might have done anything that might be considered remotely unwise under the circumstances.
 
BlackRiverFalls said:
There's a pattern emerging here every time that we discuss these kind of stories. The trans person who was banned from the bar, your friend who was outed by the press, and now this one. Every time you seem to be saying that the trans person was 100% a totally innocent victim hounded by evil transphobes, and you seem to have a real problem with the notion that they might have done anything that might be considered remotely unwise under the circumstances.
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I don't doubt that this person was less that sensable to alow herself to be used in such a blatent manner and indeed may take some pleasure in being used but I still stick by what I said about her.

The 'ex-trans' people (a phrase I wouldn't use myself: I find it rather derogitory) now being picked over by the press are in some cases people who have lied their way through treatment and did it well enough to fool the specalists but there may also be people that actualy have been misdiagnosed. It does happen (one figure I heard was 4% - that was from a psych.) The reason they're geting so much publicity just now is because they're convenient for a press that wants to kick up a stink over a group they're still free to vilify. Others ofcorse are just in it for the money.
 
Zimbabwe's top female athlete found to be a man

Greets

(apologies not sure what heading to file this under)

Zimbabwe's top female athlete found to be a man

JANE FIELDS
IN HARARE

SAMUKALISO Sithole was one of Zimbabwe’s rising stars in the tough world of international women’s athletics.

A multiple medal winner, the 17-year-old raised the troubled southern African country’s flag in junior triple jump, javelin, shot-putt and running events.

The teenage athlete has taken home thousands of pounds’ worth of prize money from regional competitions, investing in land and cattle and stoking the envy of residents in the sleepy mining town of Kwekwe, central Zimbabwe.

There is just one problem: Sithole is a man.

In what newspapers are calling one of the biggest scandals ever to rock Zimbabwean sport, Sithole is believed to have competed in dozens of events dressed as a woman. He was outed in early January by an angry acquaintance at a railway station in Kwekwe, according to the state-controlled Herald newspaper yesterday.

The acquaintance, identified only as Mr Mkandla, told four women who were planning to travel with Sithole to the country’s second city, Bulawayo, that their friend was actually a man.

Sithole tried to run away, but for once his athletic prowess failed him and he was caught by Mr Mkandla and handed over to police, the report said.

A doctor at Kwekwe General Hospital was asked to examine Sithole and confirmed the athlete was a man.

Sithole appeared before Kwekwe magistrate Siphathimisiwe Makuvaza last Friday to answer charges filed by one of the women he was travelling with.

Melita Mudondiro of Mbizo suburb in Kwekwe claims her dignity was offended when she undressed and went to bathe in front of Sithole believing him to be a woman.

On one occasion last month "the complainant returned from the bathroom wrapped in a towel and entered her bedroom where the accused was seated. She unwrapped herself and remained naked in full view of the accused," the Herald said, quoting court papers.

"All along she was under the impression that Sithole was a woman because of his feminine features and dressing," it said.

Prosecutors said the court had had difficulty deciding whether to remand Sithole in male or female holding cells, because he was adamant he was a woman.

In his defence, the athlete told the magistrate he was born with a congenital deformation.

He said his parents consulted a traditional healer from the south-eastern Chipinge district, who prescribed a herbal remedy to make him fully female.

Sithole said his parents had been able to pay only half the healer’s fee. As a punishment the healer recently made his penis grow, Sithole claimed.

He said he believed that if he was allowed to pay the outstanding balance to the traditional healer he was sure he would "revert to the female gender". Sithole said he had arranged to pay the healer on 3 March, the day his trial is set to begin.

If convicted, Sithole faces a fine and is also likely to face a life ban from the sport, once the National Athletics Association of Zimbabwe completes investigations. Sithole brought home Zimbabwe’s only gold medal from the Southern Region Athletics Championships in neighbouring Botswana last June. He has also won prizes in women’s events in Mozambique and Mauritius.

One of the first female athletes to be outed as a man at international level was the Polish sprinter Ewa Klobukowska, who failed a sex test at the 1967 European Cup Final in Kiev.
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http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=153592005

mal
 
Re: Zimbabwe's top female athlete found to be a man

Mal Function said:
As a punishment the healer recently made his penis grow, Sithole claimed.
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:shock: Address required please!
 
'He is intersex ((i assume from the report) and was raised as a woman.

It's good to see the press sensationalising Queer lifes again :x
 
There is a company called American Girl They sell a bunch of things, but they specialize in these really nice (really expensive :x) dolls. They used to be based on times in history but lately they are making more modern ones. Anyway, my point is, they send out catalogs to order these dolls from. One day we got one in the mail and they were advertising that they were selling twin baby dolls, one boy and one girl. However, the advertisement on the cover said "It's a boy and a girl!" Somebody in the company wasn't thinking appparently.

Also, has anyone read the story of (I believe it is called) Baby X? I believe it is a fiction story, but basically the plot is that a baby is born and they decide to do an experiment. The only people who know the baby's sex is the baby's parents and the doctor. The parents are instructed NOT to raise the child as a boy and NOT to raise the child as a girl. To just raise it as a child, or, as they put it, an X. I believe the child was given boys and girls toys and clothes and such. The child does not even know him/herself if it is a boy or a girl. One day the a little brother/sister is born. However, this child is also not a boy or a girl, but a Y.
 
Mystery Sex Change

This seems very bizarre... I wonder what the final findings will be?

Wednesday July 13, 03:53 AM

Mystery 'sex change' has curious flocking to Myanmar monk-to-be

HLAING THAR YAR, Myanmar (AFP) - Thin Sandar, a chicken seller in Myanmar, had always dreamed of being a man. When she inexplicably grew a penis last month, the 21-year-old treated it as an awe-inspiring omen -- as have the thousands of stunned villagers who have traveled to a pagoda to see him.

"On the morning of the full moon day of June 21, I noticed my thing (sex organ) was not the same as before," Thin Sandar, who now goes by the male name Than Sein, told AFP in an interview at his home.

"And my breasts disappeared," Than Sein added. "So I called out and showed it all to my mom and dad. It was very strange."

Strange enough that he has attracted significant attention in this deeply superstitious country, where the unexplained can quickly be exalted to hold powerful spiritual significance.

People privately concede Than Sein is a hermaphrodite. Several medical experts have examined him, and he awaits test results from the central women's hospital.

But few have come forward with a medical explanation of the transformation as they await an official report by the health ministry, whose experts have also examined Than Sein.

"We can not say right now if she has really undergone a sudden gender change," said a township official who declined to be named, adding that Than Sein's birth certificate shows that he was born a girl.

"It can be confirmed when we receive the report from the health ministry, although some medical checkups have shown her to be a true man," he added.

Hermaphrodites, also known as intersexuals, are often born with ambiguous genitalia, or have both testicular and ovarian tissue in a single person.

Medical doctor Aye Sanda Khaing put it in layman's terms in a local journal: "Her penis appeared at the site of her clitoris," the doctor was quoted as saying.

Regardless of the official findings, local villagers and other curious Myanmar nationals are flocking to the Aung Myay Thar Yar pagoda, in this new satellite township 19 kilometers (12 miles) from Yangon, to see Than Sein for themselves and make donations to him or the temple.

Up to 400 gather at the pagoda each day, often in a courtyard under colorful umbrellas to ward off the sun's rays, waiting for the chance to talk with and touch Than Sein.

"I have never heard of anything like this, so I came to see him," 21-year-old housewife Thandar Win told AFP.

"If I was not married, then I too would want to become a man!"

When word spread of Than Sein's transformation, locals raced to his home to see for themselves. Authorities, sensing a possible security hazard -- and, perhaps, an opportunity -- hastily arranged for him to be moved to the pagoda to accommodate more visitors.

Than Sein appeared comfortable with the sudden attention in the new surroundings. Wearing a checkered longyi, the traditional Myanmar pants commonly worn by men, he sat on a rug in the pagoda's side building, flanked by his parents.

"I was so happy," father Kyaw Htay, 46, said about his son's developments. "I wanted other sons so they could offer themselves as Buddhist monks, but I had only two daughters."

Occasionally Than Sein stepped out to talk with excited visitors, who shook his hand, stroked his arm, and wished him well.

A Myanmar state television crew has already interviewed him and awaits the military junta's permission to air the broadcast nationwide.

As he waits for the final test results, Than Sein said he firmly believed he had been transformed, and would enter the monkhood for a period of time and seek spiritual contemplation and guidance before deciding whether to marry and raise a family.

"Whenever I went to the pagoda I prayed to become a man in my next life," he said, referring to the Buddhist concept of rebirth.

"Now I'm happy because my dream won't have to wait until my next life, it's already come true."
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source
 
It probably didn't happen overnight, but it's possible that he may have gone through a late but sudden puberty, and may now have elevated androgen levels.
There's a tribe in Africa where many of the 'women' are in fact men with an intersex condition. At the time of puberty, some of them start to develop male sexual characteristics.
 
Hermaphrodites Unite!

OK. I am.

Trust me on this... when I was diagnosed with having a golf ball lump under my ball-sacks, I thought.. oh - shit!

An operation which should have taken 15 minutes went on for 4 hours and the lump was not just a lump, but , they told me afterwards, it had grown a "sinus tract" up towards my stomach.

The incision was 3 inches across from my sack to my sphincter and 5 inches deep (should fit most 8-inchers). It needed packing twice a day for 4 months and now I have both sets of genitalia.

:roll:

"This is the strangest life i've ever..." NUN. :lol:
 
Sounds nasty. Glad they caught it in time.
 
Can you post some pictures?
 
when I was diagnosed with having a golf ball lump under my ball-sacks, I thought.. oh - shit!

Sounds like one of those cheap consultations you get when you importune a doctor on the links.

"I'm sorry to tell you this but you've got an Unexplained Rash."
"Your results are back and show your toe is a Bit Achey."
"Does your insurance cover The Squits?"
"We call this Coughing Up Blood."
"Gracious, I haven't seen such a bad case of Spotty Arse for years!"
"Sorry, is my golf ball still under your ball sacks?"

Ball sacks! How many are there?
Camera! Lights! Action! Prepare Theatre One and get me a contract with Channel Five. We need to make a movie immediately! :shock:


In Theatre:
"Sister, bring me the eight-inch non-doctor; this one needs a lot of packing . . . "


From the uncommissioned pilot of UR, Unexplained Rash. :spinning
 
hehehee

well, I've always said i'd try anything once. :oops:

actually the doctor was great... after sticking his fingers up my rectum to diagnose the problem, I was in hospital that very day and operated on that evening.

...laughing all the way to feminine virginity.

Rus x
 
kyrus said:
theyithian said:
Can you post some pictures?
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is this a porn forum? :evil:
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Did i say i was going to thrash myself into a lather?

And i was joking, dopey. I'm not sure why you thought anyone would be interested in a description of your unfortunately mutilated genitalia - because this is a Fortean forum. Try Bizarre.
 
theyithian said:
kyrus said:
theyithian said:
Can you post some pictures?
Click to expand...

is this a porn forum? :evil:
Click to expand...

theyithian said:
Did i say i was going to thrash myself into a lather?
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saying it and doing it would be two different things...
theyithian said:
And i was joking, dopey. I'm not sure why you thought anyone would be interested in a description of your unfortunately mutilated genitalia - because this is a Fortean forum. Try Bizarre.
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oooooh, bitchy. :roll:
 
kyrus said:
...
theyithian said:
And i was joking, dopey. I'm not sure why you thought anyone would be interested in a description of your unfortunately mutilated genitalia - because this is a Fortean forum. Try Bizarre.
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oooooh, bitchy. :roll:
Click to expand...
But, quite true. Bizarre would have you in a snip. :)
 
theyithian said:
And i was joking, dopey. I'm not sure why you thought anyone would be interested in a description of your unfortunately mutilated genitalia - because this is a Fortean forum. Try Bizarre.
Click to expand...

I dunno - hermaphrodites (and other wonders of the human bodies - teratology, dog-faced boys, for example) fall within our remit so I've merged this with the main hermaphrodite thread.

So kyrus - thanks for sharing. I've read about a number of cases and I'm not clear on your case. Do you actually have female genatalia as well as male ones or a hole in your perineum? If the former what sex are you genetically? If the latter, while unfortunate, does it count as being a hermaphrodite?
 
[Drunk/]
No Illuminatus! jokes, given the man in the first posts' name?
[/Drunk]
 
OK then, I will ask that question, in the interests of Fortean enquiry.

Kyrus M8, have you tried out your physiological modification at all?
 
Mighty_Emperor said:
theyithian said:
And i was joking, dopey. I'm not sure why you thought anyone would be interested in a description of your unfortunately mutilated genitalia - because this is a Fortean forum. Try Bizarre.
Click to expand...

I dunno - hermaphrodites (and other wonders of the human bodies - teratology, dog-faced boys, for example) fall within our remit so I've merged this with the main hermaphrodite thread.

So kyrus - thanks for sharing. I've read about a number of cases and I'm not clear on your case. Do you actually have female genatalia as well as male ones or a hole in your perineum? If the former what sex are you genetically? If the latter, while unfortunate, does it count as being a hermaphrodite?
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From what i made of his post he's in no way a hermaphrodite, someone's just got a bit choppy choppy with his nads. Hence derision.
 
But a hole does not a set of genitals make* :confused:

No one would say - I had my appendix out: the doctor made a little vagina, reached in (thus busting my cherry), removed the diseased organ and sewed me back up again. I was a lady for a few hours.

Hence my suspicion they may not have been expressing themselves very well. Of course I could be wrong ;)

*Unless you are in prison
 
I have an essay on intersexuals I could post if anyone is interested. It's a bit undergraduatey (from when I was learning academic voice), but there is some info hidden in it :D
 
If anyone is still interested in this topic...

My son was born with ambiguous genitalia. We had to have a blood test to determine his gender, which put a kink in naming him until we got the results back. He does not have any chromosomal abnormalities - he is genetically male. He was born with a very poorly developed, malformed penis, testicles that were too far up inside to ever descend, and a shallow vaginal like opening. His urethral opening was indented and placed like a female`s. He did not have any internal female organs though - or at least that we detected. He is still quite small and hasn`t had an abdominal MRI or CT done yet so we can`t be entirely sure.
We were told that as the situation stands, he is not producing any male hormones, and may never do so. Puberty may never come for him without hormonal supplements. The doctors believe this was caused due to a severe disruption of development during his very early development. He had other various problems before birth, which led to both a massive stroke, IUGR, and premature birth.

We have also been informed that he has a drastically higher chance of identifying with a female than a "normal" male child does. It may turn out that he feels he is a little girl inside. If that is the case, we plan to accept it with no complaints. We don`t really know what level of hormones he received in the early stages of development - and what the effects were on his developing brain.

Despite a lot of people feeling that it isn`t right to "choose" a gender in these sort of cases, we decided to go with his genetic gender - male - and operate accordingly. As things were, he would never have developed a normal looking penis and his testicles would never have descended. We had reconstructive surgery done on his penis at just over a year - they also brought his testicles down for him.
We believe we made the correct choice - we have given him the chance to grow normal-looking male genitalia, something that would never happen if we had left things as they were. Our rationalization is that you can always get rid of the penis should he feel he is a girl, but I don`t believe he will be angry with us if he feels he is a boy. (The more likely outcome.) It`s easy to take away, but not to bring back what is already gone.
Years ago, though, we would have been doubtlessly pushed to remove the deformed parts and raise him as a girl.

We are doing our best to raise him in a gender neutral environment. His clothing is generally neutral, as are his toys. He has both boy and girl toys. We also do not press any gender "expectations" on him. We will accept him however he ends up, and because of all this I think we will be a lot more attentive than parents who don`t know their child has the possibility of being the "wrong" gender on the outside.
 
tamyu - thank you for sharing your son's story with us.
 
Yes, thank you, tamyu. People are fascinated by this topic.

Your thoughtful and loving post was a joy to read after so much piffle! :D
 
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