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The Roswell Incident [1947]

Here's Jesse Marcel himself, speaking about the extraterrestrial debris:
Thank you for the interesting citation.

Ultimately, it no longer matters what Marcel personally perceived the debris to be.

The aforesaid sequence of three photographs, now unequivocally proves all of them show Roswell's 'flying disc', not just the two with Marcel.

It's Marcel who categorically establishes this fact.

"The stuff in that one photo was pieces of the actual stuff we had found. It was not a staged photo".

As we know, there are two photographs of Marcel with his avowed genuine material. Those, "pieces of the actual stuff we had found", have not been "substituted" for anything else in the Ramey and Ramey/DuBose images.

If Marcel's assertion of the debris in his photographs bring removed and replaced for the Ramey and Ramey/DuBose photographs, the Ramey and Ramey/DuBose pictures would show something completely different, not the patently unchanged debris layout, as indisputably now proven.

We now understand what the 'hieroglyphics' on those 'I-beams' were, which Marcel never lived to see published..

It might not have made any difference to his beliefs, nonetheless, as emphasised, it no longer matters.

Critical to the Roswell case being evidence of a 'cover-up', was Marcel's allegations of subterfuge and our 'debris switch'.

Instead, by reassuring that he was photographed with genuine wreckage and as that 'genuine wreckage' is, in fact, shown in all our crucial, photographic evidence, we need no further proof of what was genuinely recovered in this seminal case.
 
Thank you for the interesting citation.

Ultimately, it no longer matters what Marcel personally perceived the debris to be.
Well ultimately, it seems to matter to many of us what Major Marcel had to say, he was front and center in that incident.
And I respect everyone's opinions on the Roswell case, we all have our own.
I will never get over Marcel's statements before he passed on, and the problem with the entire case is that, again, Marcel was far from the only one.
And what to make of Marcel's own son's statements?
Too much reasonable doubt, in my opinion.
 
Well, reading through the posts I did not know Mack Brazel took debris to Wade’s Bar in Corona.

That is a lot of witnesses, what happened to them ?

The 2nd crash site 40 miles from Brazel’s ranch, some guy named Gerald Anderson and his group saw alien bodies.

This was confirmed by Barney Barnett and his group.

Damn, this was a “ party” of people !

What happened to all these witnesses ?

And ufologist, Stanton Friedman, talked to 600 people before writing his Roswell Crash book, where are all these people ?
 
And I respect everyone's opinions on the Roswell case, we all have our own.
I will second that emotion. :)

I have been reading Berlitz annd Moore's 'The Roswell Incident'', from cover to cover again - first did so when it was published in 1980! :eek:

I have a copy available here:

www.forteanmedia.com/The_Roswell_Incident.pdf

The earliest evidence often tends to be most reliable and that publication is a proverbial goldmine of same.

Some content therein remains puzzling, especially the exact sequence of events portrayed. It needs a timeline and I intend to have a go at that - there seems to be enough testimony in the book, coupled with contemporary newspaper reports, to maybe clarify what precisely happened as regards Marcel returning to the base with debris, the B-39 flight with what was recovered and both press releases.

Also, the photographs require to be set in their correct order. My understanding is they were taken with firstly Newton holding up a piece of the 'Rawin sonde' (according to Newton), then both with Marcel and lastly Ramey, plus Ramey/Dubose.

Having spent a bit of time on the images, one thing I am now sure of, is that the 'Rawin Sonde' shown by Newton is the same as that in the Ramey and Ramey/DuBose pictures:

IMG_20220203_211602~2.jpg


Would that be a reasonable conclusion?

The piece held up by Marcel would appear to be "slightly' different and doesn't seem to be in the other photographs, e g., lying on the ground - it looks to be larger.

Any assertion that only Marcel's image is of the genuine material, makes no sense.

In any 'cover-up' scenario, It's hardly likely you would allow a photograph of the authentic debris, to be the one seemingly most featured in the newspapers!

Marcel's son's recollections are relatively straightforward - it's all a reference to the same material and again, centred on those 'I-beams' with 'hieroglyphics', which so evidently excited his father

Marcel is quoted in 'The Roswell Incident':

"One thing that impressed me about the debris was the fact that a lot of it looked like parchment....".

Why?

Apparently, as Marcel continues:

"It had little numbers with symbols that we had
to call hieroglyphics because I could not understand them.

A spaceship made of parchment.... etc.

There is, I believe, still a difficulty trying to appreciate the mindset in July, 1947.

Visitors from Mars, or perhaps Venus, were perfectly conceivable and who knew what their 'flying discs' might be made of.

Back to the central issue though and there's no escaping the hard-core fact Marcel's statedly genuine debris, evidently has a perfectly terrestrial explanation.

All else surrounding the case is arguably just 'smoke and mirrors'.

The word 'arguably', is, of course, intentional. :)

Although you could sail all four corners of our planet and still never find a similarly relaxed environment to do so - I prefer 'discuss'!

Kudos to those behind the scenes who continue to make this seamlessly possible.
 
The 2nd crash site 40 miles from Brazel’s ranch, some guy named Gerald Anderson and his group saw alien bodies.

This was confirmed by Barney Barnett and his group.
Ah...you mean the 'crash test dummies'.

:worry:

It's a crazy case, when you do indeed factor in all of the... at 'first glance'.... compelling testimonials.

There's one which is more recent and perplexing - Haut's 'deathbed confession':

LT. WALTER G. HAUT: ‘ROSWELL’ BASE PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER “DEATHBED” AFFIDAVIT


News Magazine
last updated: September 24, 2015

Lt. Walter G. Haut Roswell base public information officer “deathbed” affidavit to seeing spacecraft & bodies.

(...)

https://4cminews.com/?p=34622

I am not entirely familiar with it - only a cursory understanding - and have actually kept this aside to have a much closer look at.

Shall now do so ... the claims appear to be rather.... 'dramatic' and not something we might have expected.
 
Ah...you mean the 'crash test dummies'.

:worry:

It's a crazy case, when you do indeed factor in all of the... at 'first glance'.... compelling testimonials.

There's one which is more recent and perplexing - Haut's 'deathbed confession':

LT. WALTER G. HAUT: ‘ROSWELL’ BASE PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER “DEATHBED” AFFIDAVIT

News Magazine
last updated: September 24, 2015

Lt. Walter G. Haut Roswell base public information officer “deathbed” affidavit to seeing spacecraft & bodies.

(...)

https://4cminews.com/?p=34622

I am not entirely familiar with it - only a cursory understanding - and have actually kept this aside to have a much closer look at.

Shall now do so ... the claims appear to be rather.... 'dramatic' and not something we might have expected.

All the Barnett stories are second-hand and told years after the event. When after they emerged Barnett's wife checked his diary, it turns out he was in a place called Pie Town (yes, me neither) on the day in question rather than at the supposed crash site.

The situation with Haut is complicated but it is worth remembering that he was friends with Kaufman and Dennis and endorsed their stories: the former in particular was later completely discredited. Haut maintained consistently, including in an affidavit, that he never saw any debris until right at the end of his life, when he began to change his story (tales of him saying otherwise earlier on are all second-hand). The second affidavit was in fact written by Schmitt for Haut to sign.
 
The situation with Haut is complicated but it is worth remembering that he was friends with Kaufman and Dennis and endorsed their stories: the former in particular was later completely discredited. Haut maintained consistently, including in an affidavit, that he never saw any debris until right at the end of his life, when he began to change his story (tales of him saying otherwise earlier on are all second-hand). The second affidavit was in fact written by Schmitt for Haut to sign.
This is immensely insightful, thank you.

As you do, trying to make some sense of it all...!

What a help.... I had no idea about any of the background you have crucially explained.

It is phenomenally important and so typical of the overall story.

Did I ever mention, 'smoke and mirrors'... :)

Further thoughts on hold.... still such an extraordinarily testimony.

:tumble:
 
The difficulty with all these stories is the human factor. People enjoy telling stories, that's innate, but they also have all kinds of other reasons for misrepresenting things to others - or to themselves.

A lot of 'believer' ufologists seem to think that someone is either completely truthful or a charlatan; there is no in-between stage. I've read a few books where authors get really quite worked up about it. In reality, human experience is a pretty broad church and this can go some way towards explaining the bewildering variety of 'UFO' experiences.
 
It needs a timeline and I intend to have a go at that - there seems to be enough testimony in the book, coupled with contemporary newspaper reports, to maybe clarify what precisely happened as regards Marcel returning to the base with debris, the B-39 flight with what was recovered and both press releases.
This is significantly insightful - have never seen it before:

1993 AFFIDAVIT OF WALTER HAUT ‘ROSWELL’

(1) My name is Walter Haut

(2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX

(3) I am retired.

(4) In July 1947, I was stationed at the Roswell Army Air base serving as the base Public Information Officer. At approximately 9:30 AM on July 8, I received a call from Col. William Blanchard, the base commander, who said he had in his possession a flying saucer or parts thereof. He said it came from a ranch northwest of Roswell, and that the base Intelligence Officer, Major Jesse Marcel, was going to fly the material to Fort Worth.

(5) Col. Blanchard told me to write a news release about the operation and to deliver it to both newspapers and the two radio stations in Roswell. He felt that he wanted the local media to have the first opportunity at the story. I went first to KGFL, then to KSWS, then to the Daily Record and finally to the Morning Dispatch.

(6) The next day, I read in the newspaper that General Roger Ramey in Fort Worth had said the object was a weather balloon.

(7) I believe Col. Blanchard saw the material, because he sounded positive about what the material was. There is no chance that he would have mistaken it for a weather balloon. Neither is their any chance that Major Marcel would have been mistaken.

(8) In 1980, Jesse Marcel told me that the material photographed in Gen. Ramey’s office was not the material he had recovered.

(9) I am convinced that the material recovered was some type of craft from outer space.

(10) I have not been paid nor given anything of value to make this statement, and it is the truth to the best of my recollection.
(End)


"In 1980, Jesse Marcel told me that the material photographed in Gen. Ramey’s office was not the material he had recovered".

It's unfortunate Friedman et al, seemingly didn't show Marcel the photographs confirming no debris was ever 'substituted' and asked Marcel for his comments.

"At approximately 9:30 AM on July 8, I received a call from Col. William Blanchard, the base commander, who said he had in his possession a flying saucer or parts thereof. He said it came from a ranch northwest of Roswell, and that the base Intelligence Officer, Major Jesse Marcel, was going to fly the material to Fort Worth".

If accurate...?

Marcel and Cavitt stayed overnight at Brazel's and Marcel reportedly returned to base around 8.:00 a.m.

What initiated the, 'flying disc recovered', press release?

Whilst it can never be proven and merely a long held thought, I have wondered if Marcel's stated belief was influential.

At what point was Blanchard sufficiently persuaded the debris came from one of these 'flying discs', which were, day by day, increasing being seen in another part of the U.S.?

Possibly Marcel advising he had returned to base with what was definitely parts from one of them?
 
. In reality, human experience is a pretty broad church and this can go some way towards explaining the bewildering variety of 'UFO' experiences.
Wish I'd said that!

:comphit:

Incidentally, I couldn't make a dent in my monitor and despite a momentary blank screen, it sprung back into shape....

A technology originally sourced, of course, from the Roswell debris.

You further comment:

"A lot of 'believer' ufologists seem to think that someone is either completely truthful or a charlatan; there is no in-between stage. I've read a few books where authors get really quite worked up about it".

So on point...

If you don't get the Fortean element of it, you don't get it at all.

To quote the great man himself:

"Sometimes I am a collector of data, and only a collector, and am likely to be gross and miserly, piling up notes, pleased with merely numerically adding to my stores. Other times I have joys, when unexpectedly coming upon an outrageous story that may not be altogether a lie, or upon a macabre little thing that may make some reviewer of my more or less good works mad. But always there is present a feeling of unexplained relations of events that I note, and it is this far-away, haunting, or often taunting, awareness, or suspicion, that keeps me piling on".

I want that on my tombstone...
 
The following, just unearthed, is pivotal to discussions.

This is what we have been missing:

WHAT HAPPENED IN RAMEY'S OFFICE?
By Donald R. Schmitt and Kevin D. Randle
MUFON Journal, April 1991

It seems that the activities in Brigadier General Roger Ramey's office on July 8, 1947 have again taken center stage. There are allegations, charges and questions about those activities, and it seems that as we learn more about what happened, the picture does not become clearer, as it should, but it becomes darker and harder to see.

There are two factions, using the same witnesses, who come to completely different conclusions. However, an analysis of the entire picture might clarify it for those who have not been bombarded with information in the last
six months.

(...)

www.forteanmedia.com/1991_04_MUFON_Journal.pdf

Observations at a cursory read...

None.

Other than this requires more than simply that and seems to be the crossroad.
 
This is significantly insightful - have never seen it before:

1993 AFFIDAVIT OF WALTER HAUT ‘ROSWELL’

(1) My name is Walter Haut

(2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX

(3) I am retired.

(4) In July 1947, I was stationed at the Roswell Army Air base serving as the base Public Information Officer. At approximately 9:30 AM on July 8, I received a call from Col. William Blanchard, the base commander, who said he had in his possession a flying saucer or parts thereof. He said it came from a ranch northwest of Roswell, and that the base Intelligence Officer, Major Jesse Marcel, was going to fly the material to Fort Worth.

(5) Col. Blanchard told me to write a news release about the operation and to deliver it to both newspapers and the two radio stations in Roswell. He felt that he wanted the local media to have the first opportunity at the story. I went first to KGFL, then to KSWS, then to the Daily Record and finally to the Morning Dispatch.

(6) The next day, I read in the newspaper that General Roger Ramey in Fort Worth had said the object was a weather balloon.

(7) I believe Col. Blanchard saw the material, because he sounded positive about what the material was. There is no chance that he would have mistaken it for a weather balloon. Neither is their any chance that Major Marcel would have been mistaken.

(8) In 1980, Jesse Marcel told me that the material photographed in Gen. Ramey’s office was not the material he had recovered.

(9) I am convinced that the material recovered was some type of craft from outer space.

(10) I have not been paid nor given anything of value to make this statement, and it is the truth to the best of my recollection.
(End)


"In 1980, Jesse Marcel told me that the material photographed in Gen. Ramey’s office was not the material he had recovered".

It's unfortunate Friedman et al, seemingly didn't show Marcel the photographs confirming no debris was ever 'substituted' and asked Marcel for his comments.

"At approximately 9:30 AM on July 8, I received a call from Col. William Blanchard, the base commander, who said he had in his possession a flying saucer or parts thereof. He said it came from a ranch northwest of Roswell, and that the base Intelligence Officer, Major Jesse Marcel, was going to fly the material to Fort Worth".

If accurate...?

Marcel and Cavitt stayed overnight at Brazel's and Marcel reportedly returned to base around 8.:00 a.m.

What initiated the, 'flying disc recovered', press release?

Whilst it can never be proven and merely a long held thought, I have wondered if Marcel's stated belief was influential.

At what point was Blanchard sufficiently persuaded the debris came from one of these 'flying discs', which were, day by day, increasing being seen in another part of the U.S.?

Possibly Marcel advising he had returned to base with what was definitely parts from one of them?

Big questions around what Blanchard actually saw or knew or how involved he was in the details of the press release. A point of interest here is that Blanchard was quite close to Haut socially - he was quite a bit younger than the average colonel and was indeed a few years younger than Marcel.

Anyway, that aside, all that we really know of Blanchard's opinion comes from Haut, who in a 1990 interview related what Blanchard said in a meeting a few days later - "We sure shot ourselves in the foot with that balloon fiasco. It was just something from a project at Alamogordo"

"A project at Alamogordo" is of course an accurate description of Mogul.
 
This is what we have been missing:

WHAT HAPPENED IN RAMEY'S OFFICE?
By Donald R. Schmitt and Kevin D. Randle
MUFON Journal, April 1991
"In the final anaylsis, it is up to each person who looks at the pictures to decide the truth. Is there any reason to believe that the debris shown is anything other than a balloon?

Remember that everyone, and that includes Bill Moore originally, has said that the photos showed the remains of a balloon. (Again, we must stress that the debris in the pictures is not the debris recovered in Roswell.) So, study the pictures carefully and ask yourself, "Is this really debris from a spaceship, or is it a weather balloon on display as part of the elaborate cover story? If you're honest in your analysis, the conclusion should be obvious now that you have all the facts. The debate about the Fort Worth pictures should be over".

Run that by us again...

"Again, we must stress that the debris in the pictures is not the debris recovered in Roswell".

Sorry, based on what exactly?

Marcel was allegedly misquoted in 'The Roswell Incident' as saying the two photographs with himself were not staged and later claimed they were - in fact all of the pictures had been of fake debris.

How come then, the photographs seem to depict the rubber (charred?), foil and 'i-beam', etc. flotsam and jetsam Marcel actually said he recovered?

"Johnny Mann, a reporter in New Orleans who was putting together a TV news feature about Roswell, showed Marcel the pictures in The Roswell Incident. Pointing at them, Mann said, "Jesse, I got to tell you that looks like a balloon."

Exactly the opportunity I had mentioned, to which Marcel's reply would be fascinating...

"Marcel said, "No. No. That picture was staged. That's not the stuff I brought home."

"It bears a gross resemblance to the debris I saw, but it's not the same."

So... somehow, someone, somewhere, in a matter of hours, has assembled a detailed collection of what looks like, but isn't the same...

In terms of it being pieces of a spaceship, some of a skeptical persuasion might surmise, the only thing missing from our debris is a straw to Klingon to...

:popc:
 
The 2nd crash site 40 miles from Brazel’s ranch, some guy named Gerald Anderson and his group saw alien bodies.
This was confirmed by Barney Barnett and his group.

The Anderson and Barnett stories concern the Plains of San Agustin - well over 100 miles west of Roswell and Brazel's debris field.

Barnett never "confirmed" anything. In fact, no one investigating the Roswell incident ever spoke with Barnett because he was dead before anyone mentioned his story. The original source for the Barnett story was a couple acquainted with Barnett (who died in the Sixties) who related the story as something they'd been told by Barnett up to 30 years earlier. The bottom line on the Barnett story is that it was second-hand and told from decades-old memories.

The Barnett story (attributed to Barnett by name) first appeared in The Roswell Incident (Berlitz & Moore, 1980).

It should be borne in mind that the basic elements of Barnett's alleged story match the basic elements of the debunked 1948 Aztec crash story set in a different New Mexico location.

Barnett's story became blended into the resurrected Roswell narrative in the Seventies / Eighties.

The Roswell narrative (with Barnett blending) was broadcast in an episode of Unsolved Mysteries in fall 1989 and January 1990. Gerald Anderson surfaced after the second broadcast with his claims about being one of the Plains of San Agustin witnesses in 1947 (when he was circa 5 years old). If you believe Anderson's version of the event he was lending some confirmation to the alleged Barnett story, not the other way around.
 
Robert Trundle’s book “ Is ET Here”, Robert talked to NASA’s Clark McClelland who had a good friendship with the German scientists at NASA.

According to McClelland, President Truman sent Wernher von Braun to the Roswell UFO crash site.

Wernher von Braun claimed the ship was biological and alive with the outside almost being as thin as chewing gum wrapper.

The skin of the humanoids was rattlesnake quality.

A live humanoid was recovered but very sad over its dead crew.

And the most shocking was that there was no instrumentation inside the ship which caused von Braun to interpret as the humanoids and ship fused together as one.
 
"In the final anaylsis, it is up to each person who looks at the pictures to decide the truth. Is there any reason to believe that the debris shown is anything other than a balloon?

Remember that everyone, and that includes Bill Moore originally, has said that the photos showed the remains of a balloon. (Again, we must stress that the debris in the pictures is not the debris recovered in Roswell.) So, study the pictures carefully and ask yourself, "Is this really debris from a spaceship, or is it a weather balloon on display as part of the elaborate cover story? If you're honest in your analysis, the conclusion should be obvious now that you have all the facts. The debate about the Fort Worth pictures should be over".

Run that by us again...

"Again, we must stress that the debris in the pictures is not the debris recovered in Roswell".

Sorry, based on what exactly?

Marcel was allegedly misquoted in 'The Roswell Incident' as saying the two photographs with himself were not staged and later claimed they were - in fact all of the pictures had been of fake debris.

How come then, the photographs seem to depict the rubber (charred?), foil and 'i-beam', etc. flotsam and jetsam Marcel actually said he recovered?

"Johnny Mann, a reporter in New Orleans who was putting together a TV news feature about Roswell, showed Marcel the pictures in The Roswell Incident. Pointing at them, Mann said, "Jesse, I got to tell you that looks like a balloon."

Exactly the opportunity I had mentioned, to which Marcel's reply would be fascinating...

"Marcel said, "No. No. That picture was staged. That's not the stuff I brought home."

"It bears a gross resemblance to the debris I saw, but it's not the same."

So... somehow, someone, somewhere, in a matter of hours, has assembled a detailed collection of what looks like, but isn't the same...

In terms of it being pieces of a spaceship, some of a skeptical persuasion might surmise, the only thing missing from our debris is a straw to Klingon to...

:popc:

The 'cover up' story that the likes of Schmitt ask us to accept would run something as follows:

- The US military, at a time of serious funding and personnel shortages, is able to mobilise a large team of security and other staff within hours to secretly retrieve a crashed flying saucer;
- Having mounted this complex, highly secret operation to cover up any trace of what happened, they then issue a press release saying they've found a "flying disc";
- They take debris from the disc to Gen. Ramey's office, briefly allow it to be viewed and possibly photographed;
- They then switch the debris with similar-looking but earthly debris while Ramey and his audience are off looking at a map, subsequently allowing the fake debris to be photographed

If accurate this has to be the worst cover up of all time.
 
It should be borne in mind that the basic elements of Barnett's alleged story match the basic elements of the debunked 1948 Aztec crash story set in a different New Mexico location.
A fascinating point and duly noted.

Have come across this, which looked interesting:

IMG_20220204_215403.jpg

https://www.today.com/allday/roswell-experience-1C9385297

If you select 'watch video', it's about a raccoon.

Are they confusing the Roswell case with 'Kelly-Hopkinsville'...? :D

Will go forth in search.... etc.
 
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The following extract is from an article by Kent Jeffrey, which is a landmark, especially given by whom and where it was published.

It fits neatly now and addresses the very issues we have discussed:

MUFON UFO Journal
June 1997

ROSWELL — ANATOMY OF A MYTH
by Kent Jeffrey

(...)

The Alleged Substitution

Most of us have seen the now-famous pictures of the debris from Roswell taken in General Roger Ramey's office at Fort Worth Army Air Field. General Ramey, Colonel Thomas DuBose, Major Jesse Marcel, and Warrant Officer Irving Newton appear in the pictures, posing with the debris.

The debris is clearly visible in all seven existing pictures. There is absolutely no question that this is the debris from an ML-307 radar reflector. If this is the same debris that was recovered from the Foster ranch, then the Roswell case is closed, period. It's over, end of subject.

In the January 1991 issue of the MUFON UFO Journal, there is an article by Jaime Shandera titled "New Revelations About the Roswell Wreckage: a General Speaks Up." The article included an extensive two-part interview with General Thomas DuBose, who was a colonel and General Ramey's chief of staff in 1947. DuBose met the plane carrying the material picked up outside of Roswell and personally took it to Ramey's office.

During the first of the two interviews, Shandera realized that General DuBose was not familiar with and had not seen the pictures taken of the debris in Ramey's office. Shandera then sent DuBose a set of the pictures, prior to conducting the second interview.

Throughout the two interviews. Shanderaq questioned DuBose with the doggedness of a district attorney, asking him nine times in nine different ways whether the debris had been switched. Nine times

General DuBose made it emphatically clear that the debris had not been switched. Among DuBose's responses were "We never witched anything...We were West Pointers — we would never have done that...l have damn good eyesight...! had charge of that material, and it was never switched."

When shown the pictures from Ramey's office and asked if he recognized the material, he replied, "Oh yes. That's the material that Marcel brought in to Ft. Worth from Roswell."

In William Moore's book The Roswell Incident, Jesse Marcel, Sr., was interviewed about the debris. His responses were somewhat puzzling in that he indicated that the photos of him were of the actual debris, but that the later photos (without him) contained substituted material.

Later photos with substituted debris (even if they existed) wouldn't really matter. If the debris in the photo with Major Marcel was the actual material, it was from an ML- 307 radar reflector. Again, end of story.

Among Marcel's responses were "They took one picture of me on the floor holding up some of the less-interesting metallic debris.... The stuff in that one photo was pieces of the actual stuff we had found. It was not a staged photo."

During one of my interviews with Irving Newton, he mentioned how in Ramey's office Marcel had pointed out the symbols and indicated that he (Marcel) thought they might be some form of alien writing.

When I asked him if he was sure that it was Marcel who did that, Newton was emphatic that it was the man who "had collected the debris from the ranch." This is, of course, one further indication that the debris in Ramey's office was the debris from the Foster ranch.

There was no substitution. The debris in the pictures was the same debris collected by Major Marcel at the Foster Ranch. It was the debris from an ML-307 radar reflector.
(End)


Of equal significance, is the documented, historical evidence, highlighted by Kent:

The 1948 Military Documents

For me, the beginning of the end for the Roswell UFO case came last spring, when I first saw one of a number of previously classified military documents dealing with unidentified flying objects.

The 289-page document was released under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) in March 1996 in response to a FOIA request by researcher William LaParl. It contained the minutes of the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board Conference at the Pentagon on March 17 and 18, 1948.

Buried in the document was a very interesting statement by a Colonel Howard McCoy which referred to a number of unpublished UFO reports. The last sentence of McCoy's statement, however, is devastating to the Roswell case.

"We have a new project - Project SIGN - which may surprise you as a development from the so-called mass hysteria of the past Summer when we had all the unidentified flying objects or discs. This can't be laughed off. We have over 300 reports which haven't been publicized in the papers from very competent personel, in many instances — men as capable as Dr. K. D. Wood, and practically all Air Force, Airline people with broad experience.We are running down every report.

I can't even tell you how much we would give to have one of those crash in an area so that we could recover whatever they are."

My first reaction to this statement was one of disbelief. Thoughts came to mind like "This can't be correct, there must be some mistake, this guy didn't know," etc. We are probably all somewhat prone to such initial reactions of denial when confronted with facts that conflict with our preconceived notions of reality or our established beliefs. Most of the time, however, common sense, logic, and rationality prevail. On the other hand, there is sometimes an invariable refusal to give up a particular contention or belief, no matter how strong the evidence to the contrary.

The result of such refusal is often illogical speculation and far-fetched scenarios, concocted in an effort to rationalize away the facts. It is a pitfall into which even credible researchers sometimes tumble.

The statement at the Scientific Advisory Board Conference lamenting the fact that the Air Force did not have a crashed UFO was made by Colonel Howard McCoy, the Chief of Intelligence for Air Material Command at Wright-Patterson AFB.

Wright Patterson is where the Air Force's technical and intelligence experts are concentrated, even today. It is where recovered wreckage from a foreign craft of any kind with the potential for invading our skies would be taken for technical analysis - be it a MIG 29 or a Klingon battle cruiser. If there had been a crashed flying saucer recovered outside of Roswell, New Mexico, in July 1947, this is where it would have been taken. As Chief of intelligence, Colonel Howard McCoy would have known about it.

In addition to the minutes of the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board meeting, there are three other military documents indicating just as unequivocally that the Air Force was not in possession of any physical evidence with regard to UFOs.

Among these documents is a series of communiques dealing with "flying object incidents in the United States" between Colonel McCoy at Wright-Patterson and Major General C. P. Cabell, the Director of Intelligence for the Air Force at the Pentagon.

In one of these communiques, a letter dated November 8, 1948, McCoy made three separate references to the fact that there was no physical or tangible evidence from a flying saucer crash. Cabell used the information from McCoy's letter for preparation of a memorandum dated November 30, 1948, for Secretary of Defense James Forrestal.

The lack of physical evidence is also mentioned in a September 23, 1947, letter from Lieutenant General Nathan Twining, Commander of the Air Material Command at Wright Field, to Brigadier General George Schulgen, a top intelligence official at the Pentagon. The Twining letter was written less than three months after the Roswell incident.

The letter is also significant because it makes reference to the cooperation between the Engineering Division and the Intelligence Division at the Wright-Patterson complex.

This cooperation is mentioned specifically in regard to assessing the nature of the mysterious "flying objects" about which there had been so manyc redible reports.

The cooperation between the intelligence and
engineering branches at Wright Patterson is further corroborated by a "top secret" memorandum for the Chief, Air Intelligence Division, dated October 11, 1948, signed by a Colonel Brooke Allen, Chief, of the Air Estimates Branch at Wright-Patterson. The stated subject of the memorandum is "Analysis of Flying Object Incidents in the U.S."

This memorandum is important because, along with the Twining letter, it confirms what is dictated by common sense - that if the engineering department possessed a crashed saucer, the intelligence department would not only be aware of it, they would also be integrally involved with its analysis and the assessment of any potential threat posed to national security.

The 1947 and 1948 military documents are definative. They can not be simply or smugly characterized as "absence of evidence." They are evidence. They state definitively that there was no crashed saucer.

If instead of the above documents, researchers had uncovered definitive and authentic documentation indicating the existence of a crashed saucer, such documentation would have undoubtedly been acknowledged by all and characterized as a "smoking gun."

Victory would have been declared, and congressional investigations would have been all but certain.

Predictably, some in the UFO field are reacting to the 1947 and 1948 military documents with an attitude reminiscent of the platitude, "don't bother me with the facts, my mind's made up." Ironically, this is the same type of mentality of which they are so quick to accuse their detractors.

Narrow-mindedness, however, can exist on either side of the fence. The facts are now clear. We can't simply refuse to acknowledge them because we don't like them.
(End)

The phrase, 'Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player', comes to mind.

For I merely bring this to light.

The entire, lengthy article is available within a copy of this issue, here:

www.forteanmedia.com/1997_06_MUFON_Journal.pdf
 
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The following extract is from an article by Kent Jeffrey, which is a landmark, especially given by whom and where it was published.

It fits neatly now and addresses the very issues we have discussed:

MUFON UFO Journal
June 1997

ROSWELL — ANATOMY OF A MYTH
by Kent Jeffrey

(...)

The Alleged Substitution

Most of us have seen the now-famous pictures of the debris from Roswell taken in General Roger Ramey's office at Fort Worth Army Air Field. General Ramey, Colonel Thomas DuBose, Major Jesse Marcel, and Warrant Officer Irving Newton appear in the pictures, posing with the debris.

The debris is clearly visible in all seven existing pictures. There is absolutely no question that this is the debris from an ML-307 radar reflector. If this is the same debris that was recovered from the Foster ranch, then the Roswell case is closed, period. It's over, end of subject.

In the January 1991 issue of the MUFON UFO Journal, there is an article by Jaime Shandera titled "New Revelations About the Roswell Wreckage: a General Speaks Up." The article included an extensive two-part interview with General Thomas DuBose, who was a colonel and General Ramey's chief of staff in 1947. DuBose met the plane carrying the material picked up outside of Roswell and personally took it to Ramey's office.

During the first of the two interviews, Shandera realized that General DuBose was not familiar with and had not seen the pictures taken of the debris in Ramey's office. Shandera then sent DuBose a set of the pictures, prior to conducting the second interview.

Throughout the two interviews. Shanderaq questioned DuBose with the doggedness of a district attorney, asking him nine times in nine different ways whether the debris had been switched. Nine times

General DuBose made it emphatically clear that the debris had not been switched. Among DuBose's responses were "We never witched anything...We were West Pointers — we would never have done that...l have damn good eyesight...! had charge of that material, and it was never switched."

When shown the pictures from Ramey's office and asked if he recognized the material, he replied, "Oh yes. That's the material that Marcel brought in to Ft. Worth from Roswell."

In William Moore's book The Roswell Incident, Jesse Marcel, Sr., was interviewed about the debris. His responses were somewhat puzzling in that he indicated that the photos of him were of the actual debris, but that the later photos (without him) contained substituted material.

Later photos with substituted debris (even if they existed) wouldn't really matter. If the debris in the photo with Major Marcel was the actual material, it was from an ML- 307 radar reflector. Again, end of story.

Among Marcel's responses were "They took one picture of me on the floor holding up some of the less-interesting metallic debris.... The stuff in that one photo was pieces of the actual stuff we had found. It was not a staged photo."

During one of my interviews with Irving Newton, he mentioned how in Ramey's office Marcel had pointed out the symbols and indicated that he (Marcel) thought they might be some form of alien writing.

When I asked him if he was sure that it was Marcel who did that, Newton was emphatic that it was the man who "had collected the debris from the ranch." This is, of course, one further indication that the debris in Ramey's office was the debris from the Foster ranch.

There was no substitution. The debris in the pictures was the same debris collected by Major Marcel at the Foster Ranch. It was the debris from an ML-307 radar reflector.
(End)


Of equal significance, is the documented, historical evidence, highlighted by Kent:

The 1948 Military Documents

For me, the beginning of the end for the Roswell UFO case came last spring, when I first saw one of a number of previously classified military documents dealing with unidentified flying objects.

The 289-page document was released under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) in March 1996 in response to a FOIA request by researcher William LaParl. It contained the minutes of the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board Conference at the Pentagon on March 17 and 18, 1948.

Buried in the document was a very interesting statement by a Colonel Howard McCoy which referred to a number of unpublished UFO reports. The last sentence of McCoy's statement, however, is devastating to the Roswell case.

"We have a new project - Project SIGN - which may surprise you as a development from the so-called mass hysteria of the past Summer when we had all the unidentified flying objects or discs. This can't be laughed off. We have over 300 reports which haven't been publicized in the papers from very competent personel, in many instances — men as capable as Dr. K. D. Wood, and practically all Air Force, Airline people with broad experience.We are running down every report.

I can't even tell you how much we would give to have one of those crash in an area so that we could recover whatever they are."

My first reaction to this statement was one of disbelief. Thoughts came to mind like "This can't be correct, there must be some mistake, this guy didn't know," etc. We are probably all somewhat prone to such initial reactions of denial when confronted with facts that conflict with our preconceived notions of reality or our established beliefs. Most of the time, however, common sense, logic, and rationality prevail. On the other hand, there is sometimes an invariable refusal to give up a particular contention or belief, no matter how strong the evidence to the contrary.

The result of such refusal is often illogical speculation and far-fetched scenarios, concocted in an effort to rationalize away the facts. It is a pitfall into which even credible researchers sometimes tumble.

The statement at the Scientific Advisory Board Conference lamenting the fact that the Air Force did not have a crashed UFO was made by Colonel Howard McCoy, the Chief of Intelligence for Air Material Command at Wright-Patterson AFB.

Wright Patterson is where the Air Force's technical and intelligence experts are concentrated, even today. It is where recovered wreckage from a foreign craft of any kind with the potential for invading our skies would be taken for technical analysis - be it a MIG 29 or a Klingon battle cruiser. If there had been a crashed flying saucer recovered outside of Roswell, New Mexico, in July 1947, this is where it would have been taken. As Chief of intelligence, Colonel Howard McCoy would have known about it.

In addition to the minutes of the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board meeting, there are three other military documents indicating just as unequivocally that the Air Force was not in possession of any physical evidence with regard to UFOs.

Among these documents is a series of communiques dealing with "flying object incidents in the United States" between Colonel McCoy at Wright-Patterson and Major General C. P. Cabell, the Director of Intelligence for the Air Force at the Pentagon.

In one of these communiques, a letter dated November 8, 1948, McCoy made three separate references to the fact that there was no physical or tangible evidence from a flying saucer crash. Cabell used the information from McCoy's letter for preparation of a memorandum dated November 30, 1948, for Secretary of Defense James Forrestal.

The lack of physical evidence is also mentioned in a September 23, 1947, letter from Lieutenant General Nathan Twining, Commander of the Air Material Command at Wright Field, to Brigadier General George Schulgen, a top intelligence official at the Pentagon. The Twining letter was written less than three months after the Roswell incident.

The letter is also significant because it makes reference to the cooperation between the Engineering Division and the Intelligence Division at the Wright-Patterson complex.

This cooperation is mentioned specifically in regard to assessing the nature of the mysterious "flying objects" about which there had been so manyc redible reports.

The cooperation between the intelligence and
engineering branches at Wright Patterson is further corroborated by a "top secret" memorandum for the Chief, Air Intelligence Division, dated October 11, 1948, signed by a Colonel Brooke Allen, Chief, of the Air Estimates Branch at Wright-Patterson. The stated subject of the memorandum is "Analysis of Flying Object Incidents in the U.S."

This memorandum is important because, along with the Twining letter, it confirms what is dictated by common sense - that if the engineering department possessed a crashed saucer, the intelligence department would not only be aware of it, they would also be integrally involved with its analysis and the assessment of any potential threat posed to national security.

The 1947 and 1948 military documents are definative. They can not be simply or smugly characterized as "absence of evidence." They are evidence. They state definitively that there was no crashed saucer.

If instead of the above documents, researchers had uncovered definitive and authentic documentation indicating the existence of a crashed saucer, such documentation would have undoubtedly been acknowledged by all and characterized as a "smoking gun."

Victory would have been declared, and congressional investigations would have been all but certain.

Predictably, some in the UFO field are reacting to the 1947 and 1948 military documents with an attitude reminiscent of the platitude, "don't bother me with the facts, my mind's made up." Ironically, this is the same type of mentality of which they are so quick to accuse their detractors.

Narrow-mindedness, however, can exist on either side of the fence. The facts are now clear. We can't simply refuse to acknowledge them because we don't like them.
(End)

The phrase, 'Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player', comes to mind.

For I merely bring this to light.

The entire, lengthy article is available within a copy of this issue, here:

www.forteanmedia.com/1997_06_MUFON_Journal.pdf

That's a very balanced piece which articulates quite a few of the issues we've been discussing in the past few pages. Jeffrey is careful to make the point that Marcel Sr was being honest - he was genuinely unable to identify the debris, and genuinely felt that his superiors had stepped in and taken control of matters (without implying anything as dramatic as a major conspiracy).
 
That's a very balanced piece which articulates quite a few of the issues we've been discussing in the past few pages.
Personally, I think it's without doubt the finest article ever written about the Roswell case.

Came across something else which is perhaps insightful.

It' from 'Unsolved Mysteries' and features some early interviews, notaby with Marcel and Haut.

Just to note, when Marcel recalls they could 'not put a dent in the material with a sledgehammer', elsewhere Marcel clarifies how that allegedly occured at the base, after he had returned with material collected.

It wa not, as depicted in the documentary, something which took place at the debris site and, of course, neither was there ever a large piece of actual metal, as they portray.

The Haut interview contains a profund remark - my emphasis:

"I took the releases into town and that was one of the things Col. Blanchard told me to do, because if there's any validity to this, he didn't want the news media to think we had jumped over their heads and we not cooperating with them".

So, Ramey wanted the press release issued in anticipation that it was actually a 'flying disc'?

It was never a case where this was already determined to be a fact. How could it be, the debris had still to investigated by those with sufficient experience of sifting through crash wreckage.

If accurate, then it wasn't the much maligned Haut who, "jumped the gun", as Marcel put it, the 'culprit' was Blanchard.

What made him believe so?

Would it be that from the outset, Brazel thought he might have discovered parts from one of these new 'flying discs' and so far, there was no indication the debris could be identified?

The Roswell incident is part 2 of the program and begins at 19:25 into the video:

Unsolved Mysteries with Robert Stack - Season 2, Episode 1

 
If accurate, then it wasn't the much maligned Haut who, "jumped the gun", as Marcel put it, the 'culprit' was Blanchard.

The air of obfuscation around whether Blanchard authorised the press release or not suggests to me that Blanchard did in fact authorise it. The reason you propose - that Blanchard, probably with little time to decide, thought it better to retain some control of what could be a developing story - sounds plausible. I don't see any way Haut could have issued the release alone, although he might have gone a bit overboard in the way he went about it.

Once it was realised that the debris were in fact 'one of theirs' and that the press release had been an error, there seems to have been a general agreement to blame Haut.
 
Robert Trundle’s book “ Is ET Here”, Robert talked to NASA’s Clark McClelland who had a good friendship with the German scientists at NASA.
According to McClelland, President Truman sent Wernher von Braun to the Roswell UFO crash site.
We've never really discussed McClelland in detail on this forum, so maybe it is time to do so. First of all, McClelland was never an astronaut.

McClelland was interested in UFOs from the age of eleven, and maintained this interest throughout his career. He worked as a contractor with NASA from the late 1950s till 1990, when he began training as a ScO (support officer) for the Shuttle missions. For reasons that are not clear McClelland was dismissed in 1992., apparently something to do with his security clearance. All that time he was active in NICAP, and seems to have 'leaked' several stories to them, all of which were more-or-less bunk.

McClelland met a lot of interesting and important figures from NASA's history and was photographed with them. He was also photographed seated inside the shuttle, but this was far from unusual. Jim Oberg has also been photographed with most of these people, and in Shuttle. Oberg analysed McClelland's account of a an alleged conversation between himself and von Braun, and found that it resembled a (somewhat dubious) article in an East German newspaper, so may have been a conflation on McClelland's part (to be generous).

McClelland also reported seeing an 8 foot tall alien inside the Space Shuttle via video feed, but no-one else seems to have seen this - once again, to be generous, this could easily have been an honest mistake in perception on a TV monitor (these cows are small, Dougal, and those are far away).

In short, McClelland seems to have been hanging around NASA in various capacities working for various companies for decades, while reporting anything vaguely mysterious to NICAP and other outsiders. He was very upset about not getting a pension from NASA, and consistently wanted payment for his 'revelations' after 1992, but the lack of a pension was not a particularly unusual state of affairs (Jim Oberg, also a NASA contractor, didn't get one either).
 
To be honest I thought the Roswell Crash was straight forward over these 70 years like the crash, remove evidence, and end of story.

From Witness to Roswell : Unmasking the 60 year Cover Up by Tom Carey and Don Schmitt

But then was President Truman sending Wernher von Braun to examine the crash which mean it must have been really unusual.

Kevin D. Randle while serving in the Army talked to the base Provost Marshal, Major Edwin Easter, who said he would not give out information but told Kevin to kept investigating the Roswell Crash.

Frankie Rowe who said her father firefighter saw the crash and the aliens.

CIA person Ben Smith who was sent to get the Ramey memo for the CIA.

Roswell Army Air Field Base Adjutant , Patrick Saunders, who seemed to have had scribbled a left behind found note about the Roswell Crash.

After all these years, the Roswell Crash has more moving parts than a plane.
 
Simply for information, this was an Associated Press news release, published by several local newspapers, on 1 July, 1947.

"A Lubbock couple said they saw a silver disc-shaped object flying through the air near Smyer, but in Fort Worth Army officials said all this talk about flying discs was "Buck Rogers stuff."

The Lubbock couple would not give their names for fear of ridicule, but they reported positively they saw a disc "about the size of the moon." They said they saw it Sunday, and it was moving in a southwest direction. Three El Paso residents Saturday told of seeing flying discs several times in the last few days. They were Mrs. W. B. Cummings, J. E. Shelton Jr., and Dr. G. Oliver Dickson. Shelton said it was "so bright it nearly blinded me." Dr. Dickson said the one he saw was traveling south.

Several such reports have been received from widely scattered parts of the West.

In Fort Worth, Col. Alfred F. Kalberer, intelligence officer of the 8th Air Force, said Monday that "it might be true, but I doubt it."

Brig. Gen. Roger Ramey, commanding general of the 8th, said he thought persons making the reports "have been seeing heat waves."

*Nine planes aren't likely to be doing formation flying at 1,200 miles an hour." Ramey added. He referred to an earlier report that nine discs flying in formation had been seen moving at supersonic speed.

Kalberer has 1900 flying hours to his credit. He admitted. that a saucer-like disc would be the ideal shape for a supersonic craft.

"It doesn't stand to reason, though, that any unannounced enemy of the United States, anywhere in the world, would be sending such experimental craft over this country on trial flights," he said. "That would be tipping us off too easily."

He added that he "liked the Buck Rogers stuff, and would like to believe that the United States had a craft of its own which would go that fast."

He said the estimated 1,200 miles an hour was probably wrong, and that the planes might have been jet propelled craft doing about 450.
(End)

I have never seen this before and maybe did not appreciate such a degree of skepticism, if not in fact ridicule directly from Ramey, already existed only a week after Kenneth Arnold's reported observation.

Presumably Ramey, only another week later, would have been looking forward to seeing one of the actual 'flying discs' himself!

Interestingly, Kalberer reportedly, "admitted that a saucer-like disc would be the ideal shape for a supersonic craft".

It's this misconstrued element of Arnold's report, which was, of course, to prove fundamental and 'saucer-shaped' - not what Arnold described, or ever sketched at all - become an accepted portrayal.

Which leads conveniently to the aforenoted sighting of a 'flying saucer', by Dr. G. Oliver Dickson.

Previously mentioned, was that I would try to find a better quality photograph of his own depiction - this being what surely is the first account of a 'saucer', which has a 'dome' above and below.

Here it is and personally, an immense surprise to see such a thing exist, really early. I had long wondered when and where this 'classic' profile had its origins and expected the single 'dome' on top, would have been a precedent.

Quite evidently, not so.

Screenshot_20220214-071012.jpg


This is the accompanying article:

The Austin Statesman
1 July, 1947

www.forteanmedia.com/1947_07_01_Austin_Statesman.pdf
 
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Here it is and personally, an immense surprise to see such a thing exist, really early.
This photograph was also published in several local newspapers on 1 July, 1947 and it would be fascinating to know if that inclided the 'Roswell Daily Record'.

Unfortunately, there are no 'Daily Record' archives from that era, available via newspapers.com and I can't locate a copy of the 1st July, 1947 edition elsewhere, at present.

Thought occurs that if Major Marcel had seen this photograph, it might have been influential regarding his conclusion why the debris must be unearthly in origin, no matter how 'flimsy' it all was.
 
According to the newspaper article transcriptions posted over at:

https://www.saturdaynightuforia.com/html/articles/articlehtml/itseemedimpossible-partone.html
https://www.saturdaynightuforia.com/html/articles/articlehtml/itseemedimpossible-parttwo.html

... Dickson's sighting in El Paso occurred on Saturday preceding the 1 July publication date. That would have been 28 June.

El Paso is about as close to Roswell as Albuquerque. Have you checked for El Paso newspaper stories during the week (or more) preceding 1 July?

Other transcriptions at the same site quote witnesses citing "flat disc" object sightings prior to Dickson's.
 
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