Dick Turpin
Justified & Ancient
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Apparently, just on the south side of Southwark bridge there is a memorial to all the sex workers who died during the jack the ripper era, and someone has hung up an Orient scarf there.
What a bizarre thing to do, although we can be a bit eccentric over in Brisbane road..
What a bizarre thing to do, although we can be a bit eccentric over in Brisbane road..
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Its the Cross Bones Graveyard which was originally an unconsecrated graveyard where prostitutes were buried. Its a memorial to them not just the Jack the Ripper victims. Presumably the scarf is in memory of a more recent death.
Spookdaddy
Cuckoo
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- Midwich
I'm not a Rippernerd, and this may be something I've imagined or misunderstood - but I'm pretty sure I've read at least one reliable author on the subject who states that virtually the only tangible connection The Ten Bells ever had to the Ripper killings was its location; the idea that the pub was 'associated with several' victims being conjecture, rather than documented fact (or very much based on the looser end of the varying levels of connection the word 'associated' might imply).
One of the most memorable pints I've ever drunk in London - and I've had a few - was in this boozer.
Quoting myself from the A Good Read: Book Suggestions & Recommendations thread (#697):
It really was a pretty incredible scene - you couldn't have created anything more dramatic if you tried. It was early in the week, I seem to recall, and the pub was virtually empty - might be the last time I went, because it's always looked a bit rammed when I've been in the area more recently.
Also, I seem to recall that the gents toilets smell like they are actually underneath a leaking sewer.
Stormkhan
Disturbingly familiar
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I think you have it right.
Fact: The Ten Bells is a pub that was in the general area of the Ripper killings.
Fact (?): Many prostitutes of the time would either pick up clients at or outside pubs OR
Fact (?): Many prostitutes used to spend some or all earnings in a pub.
Therefore: There is a 'link' between the prostitute victims and the pub.
Alternatively ...
People are associating the pub with the Ripper because they've been told of the association? A self-fulfilling condition.
E.G.
A: "There's a rumour going around about Z!" (Statement)
B: "Oh, yeah? What is it?"
A: "Dunno. Just that there's a rumour."
Later ...
PRESS: "Person Z, apparently innocent, has had rumours spoken about them ..."
Fact: The Ten Bells is a pub that was in the general area of the Ripper killings.
Fact (?): Many prostitutes of the time would either pick up clients at or outside pubs OR
Fact (?): Many prostitutes used to spend some or all earnings in a pub.
Therefore: There is a 'link' between the prostitute victims and the pub.
Alternatively ...
People are associating the pub with the Ripper because they've been told of the association? A self-fulfilling condition.
E.G.
A: "There's a rumour going around about Z!" (Statement)
B: "Oh, yeah? What is it?"
A: "Dunno. Just that there's a rumour."
Later ...
PRESS: "Person Z, apparently innocent, has had rumours spoken about them ..."
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Ascalon
Justified & Ancient
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For anyone fond of a good podcast, a sub brand of the History Hit series is "After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds, and the Paranormal."
Often addressing topics and incidents of Fortean interest, this week they are tackling the cultural phenomenon of Jack the Ripper, as opposed to the a whodunnit approach.
Listen on any of the major podcast platforms.
Often addressing topics and incidents of Fortean interest, this week they are tackling the cultural phenomenon of Jack the Ripper, as opposed to the a whodunnit approach.
Listen on any of the major podcast platforms.
DrPaulLee
Justified & Ancient
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You've probably read this:
https://wiki.casebook.org/ten_bells.html
I knew the name "Ringers" was sometimes cited in 1888 and I thought this was "The Ten Bells" (bells = ringing) so I was a bit surprised to learn it was actually the now demolished Britannia, which got the nickname due to it's landlords surname.
https://wiki.casebook.org/ten_bells.html
I knew the name "Ringers" was sometimes cited in 1888 and I thought this was "The Ten Bells" (bells = ringing) so I was a bit surprised to learn it was actually the now demolished Britannia, which got the nickname due to it's landlords surname.
Ascalon
Justified & Ancient
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Currently reading Bruce Robinson's They All Love Jack.
It's a tough read.
His style is that of the Horrible Histories character Shouty Man.
He starts off near in a rage and only gets worse.
He also seems to think that repetition and forceful statements will make a flimsy assertion stand up on its own.
I'm only 20% in, but already from my meagre knowledge, there are substantive holes to be picked in his arguments.
Going to persevere, only out of bloody mindedness rather than scholarly value.
It's a tough read.
His style is that of the Horrible Histories character Shouty Man.
He starts off near in a rage and only gets worse.
He also seems to think that repetition and forceful statements will make a flimsy assertion stand up on its own.
I'm only 20% in, but already from my meagre knowledge, there are substantive holes to be picked in his arguments.
Going to persevere, only out of bloody mindedness rather than scholarly value.
Last edited:
Ascalon
Justified & Ancient
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- Jul 3, 2009
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- 1,476
Having consumed a good number of books on this topic recently, I've been having some thoughts on elements of the MO.
Just my musings.
Firstly, if one includes Martha Tabram (Turner) as the first victim, what appears to be a significant pattern emerges.
Martha's movements are fairly well known in the hours before her death. And without going into it all, it is highly likely that the murderer was not her last client with whom she was seen in public. In all likelihood, the murderer took advantage of an opportunistic encounter.
That supposition, along with the MO being underdeveloped compared to the other crimes, could indicate that the murderer wasn't actually posing as a john, but rather someone who knew the movements and habits of these kinds of sex workers and so took opportunistic advantage of them and their specific vulnerabilities.
Following on, Poly Nichols was found in a quiet, but exposed street, Bucks Row. Her injuries were far more extensive and horrific, but now more reflective of what was to follow. Annie Chapman, too, in Hanbury Street was even more secluded, though no less risky.
Liz Stride, in Dutfield's Yard again, risky but secluded. And even more so, Cathy Eddowes in Mitre Square. That location allowed a gloomy spot for unseen crimes.
Then, ultimately Mary Jane Kelly was indoors, the only instance of such in the series, of either the five or the six. Though it should be acknowledged that Martha Tabram was found on a stairwell landing, not on the street.
My instincts tell me that the murderer may well have been more opportunistic than first thought. I think the perpetrator may well have observed these women taking the risky action of taking a client to a secluded place, at which time he intervened to deadly effect.
Secondly, I think there is an escalation and development of the MO to seek more secluded places to facilitate the infliction of post mortem wounds which seems to have been the goal.
The implication of this is that all the eyewitness testimony of people supposedly seen in the company of a victim shortly before their discovery may well be useless.
The major flaw in this, is that none of the victims were reported to have had evidence of congress when examined. That said, there are other explanations for this which do not preclude the completion of some kind of transaction between the victims and their clients.
Another implication is that it increases the likelihood that the murderer had some kind of a relationship with Mary Jane Kelly. Hence the cessation in the immediately recognisable pattern.
Martha's movements are fairly well known in the hours before her death. And without going into it all, it is highly likely that the murderer was not her last client with whom she was seen in public. In all likelihood, the murderer took advantage of an opportunistic encounter.
That supposition, along with the MO being underdeveloped compared to the other crimes, could indicate that the murderer wasn't actually posing as a john, but rather someone who knew the movements and habits of these kinds of sex workers and so took opportunistic advantage of them and their specific vulnerabilities.
Following on, Poly Nichols was found in a quiet, but exposed street, Bucks Row. Her injuries were far more extensive and horrific, but now more reflective of what was to follow. Annie Chapman, too, in Hanbury Street was even more secluded, though no less risky.
Liz Stride, in Dutfield's Yard again, risky but secluded. And even more so, Cathy Eddowes in Mitre Square. That location allowed a gloomy spot for unseen crimes.
Then, ultimately Mary Jane Kelly was indoors, the only instance of such in the series, of either the five or the six. Though it should be acknowledged that Martha Tabram was found on a stairwell landing, not on the street.
My instincts tell me that the murderer may well have been more opportunistic than first thought. I think the perpetrator may well have observed these women taking the risky action of taking a client to a secluded place, at which time he intervened to deadly effect.
Secondly, I think there is an escalation and development of the MO to seek more secluded places to facilitate the infliction of post mortem wounds which seems to have been the goal.
The implication of this is that all the eyewitness testimony of people supposedly seen in the company of a victim shortly before their discovery may well be useless.
The major flaw in this, is that none of the victims were reported to have had evidence of congress when examined. That said, there are other explanations for this which do not preclude the completion of some kind of transaction between the victims and their clients.
Another implication is that it increases the likelihood that the murderer had some kind of a relationship with Mary Jane Kelly. Hence the cessation in the immediately recognisable pattern.
Just my musings.