Jack The Ripper (Compendium Thread)

[Ascalon]

Perhaps this is by-the-by, but... how does one look 'local-ish'? How does one even look 'local'?

In the area at the time were numerous ehtnic minorities, with Eastern European Jews being an identifiable cohort, for example. By localish (my term) I would suggest that this was someone who looked like a labourer or semi-skilled worker from the area, as opposed to either someone from an ethnic minority or a specialist profession, such as a sailor.

A labourer in the fruit markets, a car man, a tannery worker, a brewery worker, etc, somone who would have looked part of the scenery on any street corner or public house, that did not immediately stand out as a member of a specific profession or line of work, or ethnic minority.

You know, local.

 

[Stormkhan]

London is fairly cosmopolitan, in most areas, but traditionally Golders Green has a large community Orthodox or Hussedic Jews*. So, if you witnessed a crime and the suspect looked like he was dressed as an Orthodox Jew, you'd assume he was local. He'd look local. Ish?

Like if you saw someone dressed as a barrister in one of the Inns of Court, you'd assume he worked there. Was local.

*No idea of data, just the impression I have.

 

[Cochise]

Have had a chance to peruse Casebook a bit, though not yet consulted Sugden, but I still can't see eye witness descriotiions with the oddly specific physical chareacteristics described.

The Yahoo article states:

"Witnesses described a man in his mid-thirties with a stiff arm and an irregular gait with bent knees, and Ms Bax Horton discovered that the medical notes of Hyams – who was 35 in 1888 – recorded an injury that left him unable to “bend or extend” his left arm as well as an irregular gait and an inability to straighten his knees, with asymmetric foot dragging. He also had the most severe form of epilepsy, with regular seizures."

If someone has a reference on this, feel free to jump in, I'm struggling to see where this came from.

And there is of course the question if ANY of the eyewitnesses actually saw Saucy Jack himself. I'm not convinced.

 

[catseye]

What if JTR was dressed as a policeman?

 

[Cochise]

What if JTR was dressed as a policeman?

Yes, a possibility. There is a short story which uses that premise.

The thing is, we really don't have a clue. If JTR happened a century later I have no doubt we'd have caught him, but back then they simply didn't have the tools. We don't know if anyone actually saw him, we don't know which murders are actually down to him, we have no forensics or DNA or anything we would now use.

As I have mentioned earlier I was for some years fascinated with JTR and had been an active contributor on a specialised forum, but I came to believe it is simply insoluble, no evidence can be trusted.

 

[catseye]

Yes, a possibility. There is a short story which uses that premise.

The thing is, we really don't have a clue. If JTR happened a century later I have no doubt we'd have caught him, but back then they simply didn't have the tools. We don't know if anyone actually saw him, we don't know which murders are actually down to him, we have no forensics or DNA or anything we would now use.

As I have mentioned earlier I was for some years fascinated with JTR and had been an active contributor on a specialised forum, but I came to believe it is simply insoluble, no evidence can be trusted.

Oooh, a short story, I'll have to hunt that one down.

I don't think it will ever be solved either. Not just because of the paucity of evidence, particularly over this temporal distance, but also because solving the case will take away the mystery and fun, and there's a whole industry built on that. It's not really in anyone's interest to solve.

 

[Cochise]

I'll try to remember the short story. The basic plot was a journalist who was trying to solve the case and working with a policeman friend, except when the journalist got too close the policeman strangled him.

 

[catseye]

I'll try to remember the short story. The basic plot was a journalist who was trying to solve the case and working with a policeman friend, except when the journalist got too close the policeman strangled him.

It just struck me that going out disguised as a policeman would work well for JTR. The women wouldn't be afraid of him approaching them (so wouldn't scream), anyone seeing the actual murder would just assume that a policeman was tending to a victim, and if he was caught he could just jump up and say he was going to find another policeman to assist... vanishing into the mist. Do people ever really 'look' at policemen? He'd just be another bloke in uniform. Easy to murder women under cover of a cloak and walk swiftly away with the excuse of going for help or to attend another case if seen.

 

[maximus otter]

Do people ever really 'look' at policemen?

maximus otter

 

[Erinaceus]

Look at policemen?

You'd have trouble finding one nowadays.

 

[catseye]

maximus otter

We all look at you, Max. Sometimes with our eyebrows raised, but we're looking...

 

[PeteS]

Look at policemen?

You'd have trouble finding one nowadays.

And when you do they have the generic look so well copied by 20/30 something blokes ie short hair (or bald), beard and tattoos, that you'd have difficulty distinguishing them.

 

[catseye]

And when you do they have the generic look so well copied by 20/30 something blokes ie short hair (or bald), beard and tattoos, that you'd have difficulty distinguishing them.

I usually find that the uniform saying POLICE all across their chest and back is a bit of a giveaway...

 

[Yithian]

Jack the Ripper?

 

[Stormkhan]

He's behind you ...

 

[PeteS]

I usually find that the uniform saying POLICE all across their chest and back is a bit of a giveaway...

What I meant was that I would have difficulty distinguishing them from each other.

 

[Stormkhan]

The only clue would be their warrant number.

 

[Ascalon]

It just struck me that going out disguised as a policeman would work well for JTR. The women wouldn't be afraid of him approaching them (so wouldn't scream), anyone seeing the actual murder would just assume that a policeman was tending to a victim, and if he was caught he could just jump up and say he was going to find another policeman to assist... vanishing into the mist. Do people ever really 'look' at policemen? He'd just be another bloke in uniform. Easy to murder women under cover of a cloak and walk swiftly away with the excuse of going for help or to attend another case if seen.

This has been floated many times and the simple truth of it is that it is highly unlikely.

While from our perspective it sounds like the perfect disguise, to dig a little deeper into Victorian, and particularly London's East End, culture of the time, it would be a liability.

Policing at the time relied heavily on visibility. A bobby had a beat and a frequency, and the people of the area were as familiar with them as they were with the bells of Bowes. Any one who was involved in anything even mildy frowned on by the law would have been accutely aware of any sign of a set of brass buttons and the appearance of same would usually cause a ripple of notification of same throughout a street. Hawkers, vagrants, street walkers, and anyone else who just didn't fancy explaining their movements to a copper would hear that and make themselves scarce, if at all possible — or at the very least, inconspicuous.

Also, any bobby encountering someone else in uniform they were not expecting would have caused a notable incident. This is due to the beat system, where if you saw a copper, as a copper, where you weren't expecting it, that was immediate evidence of something amiss.

Due to all of this, I sincerely doubt that JTR would have succeeded in being quite as invisible as he was, were he to be dressed as a law encforcement officer.

 

[catseye]

This has been floated many times and the simple truth of it is that it is highly unlikely.

While from our perspective it sounds like the perfect disguise, to dig a little deeper into Victorian, and particularly London's East End, culture of the time, it would be a liability.

Policing at the time relied heavily on visibility. A bobby had a beat and a frequency, and the people of the area were as familiar with them as they were with the bells of Bowes. Any one who was involved in anything even mildy frowned on by the law would have been accutely aware of any sign of a set of brass buttons and the appearance of same would usually cause a ripple of notification of same throughout a street. Hawkers, vagrants, street walkers, and anyone else who just didn't fancy explaining their movements to a copper would hear that and make themselves scarce, if at all possible — or at the very least, inconspicuous.

Also, any bobby encountering someone else in uniform they were not expecting would have caused a notable incident. This is due to the beat system, where if you saw a copper, as a copper, where you weren't expecting it, that was immediate evidence of something amiss.

Due to all of this, I sincerely doubt that JTR would have succeeded in being quite as invisible as he was, were he to be dressed as a law encforcement officer.

Ah well. It was just an idea.

 

[Frideswide]

Due to all of this, I sincerely doubt that JTR would have succeeded in being quite as invisible as he was, were he to be dressed as a law encforcement officer.

True.

Unless he wasn't dressed as one, he was one.

 

[Ascalon]

True.

Unless he wasn't dressed as one, he was one.

A fair point, but again, highly unlikely.

The beat system meant he would have had to have been on duty at every murder, otherwise he would have been conspicuous by his presence in mufti. Also the geographical spread, though physically small, covered several beats though mostly H Division, except for Catherine Eddowes in Mitre Square which encroached on City of London territory.

Again, it is not impossible., but a policeman in uniform either fleeing from, or just generally in the vicinity of, a murder that wasn't actively involved would have drawn attention, suspicion and inquiry, not least from colleagues and there has never been even slightest hint of it. In fact, there was more of the police turning a blind eye than anything else in perception of the time.

It can't be entirely ruled out, but it's likelihood is close nil, IMHO.

 

[Frideswide]

A fair point, but again, highly unlikely.

I'm not saying it was likely

 

[maximus otter]

I noted in a thread on charity shop finds that I’d picked up a copy of The London of Jack the Ripper Then and Now for just £2.50, and promised to give my thoughts on it when I’d finished it.

TLDR? I’d give it a 7/10.

Why only 7?

a) Although it gives good background information on the victims and the crimes, it wastes space on non-canon victims like Rose Mylett and the Pinchin Street Torso.

b) The “Now” photos, though good, are dated, being all from 2007. (There’s a 2013 edition on Amazon, but the photos are still the 2007 ones.)

c) There are several minor but annoying spelling errors which should have been caught by a competent editor.

d) My main niggle is the lack of modern maps and travel information, showing the Ripperologist useful information like the nearest Tube station, directions for pedestrians, What Three Words coordinates etc.

For £12.99 (new) it’s a solid, compact source of information, but it could have been so much better…

Recommended with reservations.

maximus otter

 

[Yithian]

I noted in a thread on charity shop finds that I’d picked up a copy of The London of Jack the Ripper Then and Now for just £2.50, and promised to give my thoughts on it when I’d finished it.

How does it compare with The East End: Then & Now?

https://forums.forteana.org/index.p...er-compendium-thread.993/page-60#post-1769186

 

[Ronnie Jersey]

I saw this a few weeks ago in our New York Post, and I don't see that anyone has commented on it.
It's just an item of interest, that a relative of the one of the original investigators on the case, has been doing her own research and come up with a new suspect for Jack The Ripper: (I wouldn't imagine that a person who had trouble walking would be able to run off, as JTR had to I'm sure, but it was just interesting that a relative was involved)

Relative of original Jack the Ripper investigator claims to know never-caught serial killer’s ID​

A relative of a former investigator of the Jack the Ripper case claims she knows the real murderer is.

Sarah Bax Horton, who is a relative to an officer who conducted the original investigation, claims a man named Hyam Hyams is the real mysterious serial killer who went on a spree in London in 1888.

Horton, a former police volunteer, said her detective work has led her Hyams, who lived in the area at the same time as the murderer, and that he was a cigar worker, therefore, would give him the knowledge of how to use a knife, the Telegraph reported.

In addition, Hyams had a dark past littered with alcoholism, epilepsy, and paranoia. He was also arrested after he attacked his wife and his mother with “a chopper,” the Telegraph said.

But what really convinced Horton that Hyams was the real serial killer was his medical records, which gave “distinctive physical characteristics.”

Jack the Ripper victims had described him has having a weird gait and a stiff arm and Hyams’ medical record showed the then-35-year-old had recorded an injury in his left arm that left him unable to “bend or extend” the limb and that he wasn’t able to straighten his knees, leading to foot dragging.

His injuries also coincided with Jack the Ripper’s killings, showing he declined mentally and physically around the time the murders were happening.

“That escalation path matched the increasing violence of the murders,” Horton told the Telegraph. “He was particularly violent after his severe epileptic fits, which explains the periodicity of the murders.

“In the files, it said what the eyewitnesses said – that he had a peculiar gait. He was weak at the knees and wasn’t fully extending his legs. When he walked, he had a kind of shuffling gait, which was probably a side-effect of some brain damage as a result of his epilepsy.”

https://nypost.com/2023/07/15/relat...claims-to-know-who-the-real-serial-killer-is/

 

[maximus otter]

I saw this a few weeks ago in our New York Post, and I don't see that anyone has commented on it.
It's just an item of interest, that a relative of the one of the original investigators on the case, has been doing her own research and come up with a new suspect for Jack The Ripper: (I wouldn't imagine that a person who had trouble walking would be able to run off, as JTR had to I'm sure, but it was just interesting that a relative was involved)

Relative of original Jack the Ripper investigator claims to know never-caught serial killer’s ID​

A relative of a former investigator of the Jack the Ripper case claims she knows the real murderer is.

Sarah Bax Horton, who is a relative to an officer who conducted the original investigation, claims a man named Hyam Hyams is the real mysterious serial killer who went on a spree in London in 1888.

Horton, a former police volunteer, said her detective work has led her Hyams, who lived in the area at the same time as the murderer, and that he was a cigar worker, therefore, would give him the knowledge of how to use a knife, the Telegraph reported.

In addition, Hyams had a dark past littered with alcoholism, epilepsy, and paranoia. He was also arrested after he attacked his wife and his mother with “a chopper,” the Telegraph said.

But what really convinced Horton that Hyams was the real serial killer was his medical records, which gave “distinctive physical characteristics.”

Jack the Ripper victims had described him has having a weird gait and a stiff arm and Hyams’ medical record showed the then-35-year-old had recorded an injury in his left arm that left him unable to “bend or extend” the limb and that he wasn’t able to straighten his knees, leading to foot dragging.

His injuries also coincided with Jack the Ripper’s killings, showing he declined mentally and physically around the time the murders were happening.

“That escalation path matched the increasing violence of the murders,” Horton told the Telegraph. “He was particularly violent after his severe epileptic fits, which explains the periodicity of the murders.

“In the files, it said what the eyewitnesses said – that he had a peculiar gait. He was weak at the knees and wasn’t fully extending his legs. When he walked, he had a kind of shuffling gait, which was probably a side-effect of some brain damage as a result of his epilepsy.”

https://nypost.com/2023/07/15/relat...claims-to-know-who-the-real-serial-killer-is/

View attachment 68150

Good to see you back and posting, Ronnie.

maximus otter

 

[PeteS]

I saw this a few weeks ago in our New York Post, and I don't see that anyone has commented on it.
It's just an item of interest, that a relative of the one of the original investigators on the case, has been doing her own research and come up with a new suspect for Jack The Ripper: (I wouldn't imagine that a person who had trouble walking would be able to run off, as JTR had to I'm sure, but it was just interesting that a relative was involved)

Relative of original Jack the Ripper investigator claims to know never-caught serial killer’s ID​

A relative of a former investigator of the Jack the Ripper case claims she knows the real murderer is.

Sarah Bax Horton, who is a relative to an officer who conducted the original investigation, claims a man named Hyam Hyams is the real mysterious serial killer who went on a spree in London in 1888.

Horton, a former police volunteer, said her detective work has led her Hyams, who lived in the area at the same time as the murderer, and that he was a cigar worker, therefore, would give him the knowledge of how to use a knife, the Telegraph reported.

In addition, Hyams had a dark past littered with alcoholism, epilepsy, and paranoia. He was also arrested after he attacked his wife and his mother with “a chopper,” the Telegraph said.

But what really convinced Horton that Hyams was the real serial killer was his medical records, which gave “distinctive physical characteristics.”

Jack the Ripper victims had described him has having a weird gait and a stiff arm and Hyams’ medical record showed the then-35-year-old had recorded an injury in his left arm that left him unable to “bend or extend” the limb and that he wasn’t able to straighten his knees, leading to foot dragging.

His injuries also coincided with Jack the Ripper’s killings, showing he declined mentally and physically around the time the murders were happening.

“That escalation path matched the increasing violence of the murders,” Horton told the Telegraph. “He was particularly violent after his severe epileptic fits, which explains the periodicity of the murders.

“In the files, it said what the eyewitnesses said – that he had a peculiar gait. He was weak at the knees and wasn’t fully extending his legs. When he walked, he had a kind of shuffling gait, which was probably a side-effect of some brain damage as a result of his epilepsy.”

https://nypost.com/2023/07/15/relat...claims-to-know-who-the-real-serial-killer-is/

View attachment 68150

Yet another suspect fitting the profile. Interesting but I guess there were numerous such characters inhabiting the area at that time.

 

[Stormkhan]

One of the factors in the failure of prosecution?

 

[maximus otter]

How does it compare with The East End: Then & Now?

https://forums.forteana.org/index.p...er-compendium-thread.993/page-60#post-1769186

Those two, plus Scenes of Murder Then and Now, are the three sources l own. There’s a lot of overlap between them, especially East End and Scenes of Murder, which are produced by the same crew.

ln terms of useful material, l’d rank them:

a) Scenes

b) East End

c) The London of JTR

- Though any would stand alone for a non-specialist looking for interesting information.

maximus otter

 

[Ascalon]

I saw this a few weeks ago in our New York Post, and I don't see that anyone has commented on it.
It's just an item of interest, that a relative of the one of the original investigators on the case, has been doing her own research and come up with a new suspect for Jack The Ripper: (I wouldn't imagine that a person who had trouble walking would be able to run off, as JTR had to I'm sure, but it was just interesting that a relative was involved)

Relative of original Jack the Ripper investigator claims to know never-caught serial killer’s ID​

A relative of a former investigator of the Jack the Ripper case claims she knows the real murderer is.

Sarah Bax Horton, who is a relative to an officer who conducted the original investigation, claims a man named Hyam Hyams is the real mysterious serial killer who went on a spree in London in 1888.

Horton, a former police volunteer, said her detective work has led her Hyams, who lived in the area at the same time as the murderer, and that he was a cigar worker, therefore, would give him the knowledge of how to use a knife, the Telegraph reported.

In addition, Hyams had a dark past littered with alcoholism, epilepsy, and paranoia. He was also arrested after he attacked his wife and his mother with “a chopper,” the Telegraph said.

But what really convinced Horton that Hyams was the real serial killer was his medical records, which gave “distinctive physical characteristics.”

Jack the Ripper victims had described him has having a weird gait and a stiff arm and Hyams’ medical record showed the then-35-year-old had recorded an injury in his left arm that left him unable to “bend or extend” the limb and that he wasn’t able to straighten his knees, leading to foot dragging.

His injuries also coincided with Jack the Ripper’s killings, showing he declined mentally and physically around the time the murders were happening.

“That escalation path matched the increasing violence of the murders,” Horton told the Telegraph. “He was particularly violent after his severe epileptic fits, which explains the periodicity of the murders.

“In the files, it said what the eyewitnesses said – that he had a peculiar gait. He was weak at the knees and wasn’t fully extending his legs. When he walked, he had a kind of shuffling gait, which was probably a side-effect of some brain damage as a result of his epilepsy.”

https://nypost.com/2023/07/15/relat...claims-to-know-who-the-real-serial-killer-is/

View attachment 68150

Hi Ronnie,
good spot.

It was refered to previously, from this post:
https://forums.forteana.org/index.php?threads/jack-the-ripper-compendium-thread.993/post-2276358

With some credulity at the eye witness testimony.

We are eagerly awaiting someone from this parish to review the book