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Nissan Leaf Electric Car

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Trevp666

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Dunno if this is the right place to post this, but had to share my despair with someone!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/7471643/Nissan-Leaf-to-be-built-in-UK.html
2010-nissan-leaf-pictures.jpg


When I was a kid I (long time ago) I used to see electric cars on Tomorrows World, but they were all a bit rubbish, but there was a promise of great things in the future, which I looked forward to, and I still think decent electric vehicles are desirable so I support it generally.
Now, it's nice to know that the UK will be producing the new electric car from Nissan, but I wonder just what planet these people are on when they talk about the range etc.

It's an average looking family car, but with these figures;

The Leaf is based on a special electric vehicle chassis and will have an average range of 100 miles and a top speed of 90mph, which Nissan claims will be sufficient for more than 90 per cent of UK car customers' daily journeys.
It also claims that the Leaf will be able to be recharged to more than 80 per cent of its capacity in just 30 minutes at special high-current charging stations

...Well that's just great - you can legally do 70mph on UK roads, so expect a range of about 120 miles. Factor in the recharge time, and hoping that there will be recharge points at suitable intervals to your destination (high charge sites = 80% capacity, but what about on a 'normal' plug??!) and I reckon that a 350 mile journey will take approx 7 hours. And if it's cold, dark and rainy, your car is loaded up for a holiday, and you fancy using your satnav and listen to music on that journey, then the batteries are going to be drained at a higher rate anyway.
I would say that a trip down to Cornwall from London would take, at best, about 9 hours.
Unless you only intended to use it around town, in which case you'd need a second car anyway (probably petrol) for those family holidays.

I wonder if Nissan will offer to exchange the weedy lithium-ion batteries for shinybright lithium-ion polymer units once they become fully available?.......

It's certainly no Tesla Model S, that's for sure!
http://www.teslamotors.com/
tesla_models_side.jpg


(Oh BTW it did also occur to me that if you were feeling particularly nutty in the 'Leaf' you could spank it, flat out up the motorway on a full charge, but only for about 45 minutes before 'low charge' warnings start appearing)
 
I don't think electric car technology is practical for most people, yet already manufacturers are bringing these cars to market.
Really, I think they'll only be of use for shopping trips. They're no good for a long regular commute. In my last job, I was doing 80 miles a day - that's close to the limit for the Nissan Leaf.
 
Electric cars, even those with a low range will be sufficient for the vast majority of local trips, and for some people, that's all they do. The Tesla Model S will do 300 miles (480 km) on a single charge and has a battery pack that can be changed in 5 minutes. Much cleaner and more efficient energy use (even if your electricity comes from coal burning power stations) and as we move to more renewable electricity generation, your electric car becomes automatically greener without you having to do a thing!
 
Unfortunately, only the most wealthy can afford a Tesla.
It's also not that practical, being a sporty car - some of us want vans or MPVs.
 
I heard the Nissan rep on the Today programme say (but don't quote me on this) that something like 95% of UK car journeys are under 25 miles. That would appear to make the Leaf a viable option for most.
 
The Leaf is based on a special electric vehicle chassis and will have an average range of 100 miles and a top speed of 90mph, which Nissan claims will be sufficient for more than 90 per cent of UK car customers' daily journeys.
Click to expand...
Fine. So buy one of these for all those ordinary trips, and hire a fossil-fuel car for the odd occassion when you do need a long-haul machine.

As battery technology gets better (and there are several novel types being developed now) an electric car makes even more sense.

And BTW, with modern electronics and hi-tech lamps, the in-car electronics and the headlights, etc, will only use a small proportion of the electric power.

I'm happy to see that the Leaf uses regenerative braking - way to go!
 
Mythopoeika said:
Unfortunately, only the most wealthy can afford a Tesla.
It's also not that practical, being a sporty car - some of us want vans or MPVs.
Click to expand...

Like all new technologies, they'll get cheaper as economies of scale kick in. I wouldn't say the Model S is impractical, or a sports car. The Tesla Roadster yes, but not the Model S. As for your van or MPV, it'll be a while before electrical engines can haul large loads. Meanwhile, if those of us that can switch to electric, there will still be enough affordable petrol for those vehicles that still need it.
 
DougalLongfoot said:
If you're interested in electric cars you may like to watch "Gearless" on Youtube, a web program by Robert Llewellyn:

http://www.youtube.com/user/GearlessUK
Click to expand...

Thanks for that link, I enjoyed it.
Interesting to see that mitsubushi have got their fast-charge down to a more reasonable level. He had drained quite a bit of charge (apparently) and quotes about 10-15 minutes eating his butty, I don't recall how far he had driven though.

I'm fairly certain that within the next 5 years we'll see one of the major manufacturers announce a "global electric car platform", upon which many different bodystyles can be mounted, which (hopefully) will have a 400+ miles range and a 5 minute full recharge. That is when we will really start to see the demise of fossil fuels.
My main worry though is that as soon as we all start buying electric vehicles that the government will (due to loss of revenue from fossil fuels) increase taxes elsewhere, or force up the price of recharging your car etc.....
 
trevp66 said:
I'm fairly certain that within the next 5 years we'll see one of the major manufacturers announce a "global electric car platform", upon which many different bodystyles can be mounted, which (hopefully) will have a 400+ miles range and a 5 minute full recharge. That is when we will really start to see the demise of fossil fuels.
Click to expand...

Rather than a 5 minute recharge, I envision a standardised swap-and-go system where the whole battery pack is changed (will be available on the Tesla Model S). Fuel/battery stations could then recharge at a more liesurely rate, and drivers could be assured that their battery pack was always the latest technology (increasing range each time you swap) and faulty batteries could be taken out of the system and recycled more conveniently. I'm actually writing a marketing essay using this concept at the moment.

If you liked Robert Llewellyn (Kryten from Red Dwarf, Scrapheap Challenge etc.) then he has a very active twitter account @bobbyllew and a great vodcast series Carpool
 
Yeah I also considered the 'swap' option. It does seem like a workable method. Obviously the infrastructure would have to be put in place to transport and store the battery packs, and you'd have to ensure that there was a supply in excess of demand, to account for peaks in usage.
I think it would probably be easier though to stick with home-charging, the electric points are already there and there would be no need to rely on a 3rd party to swap your batteries.

Now if there was only some way of producing almost limitless power from a teaspoonful of material.........of course, that's it, atomic cars!
Strap some kind of reactor to the back of a Tesla and I'm ready to go :eek:)
 
Nissan shows off prototype electric car Leaf

BBC 'Click' staffer, Spencer Kelly, takes a test drive of Nissan's prototype vehicle, called Leaf, that is due to go into production in December 2010.

(link takes you to video report - SK mentions practical issues with range and usability.... and then manages to drive into a track marker cone :lol: )

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/8652210.stm
 
What an abomination in form and function! Why do all electric cars with the exception of the Tesla and I include the Pious sorry Prius, look like something that was cobbled together from a childs Lego kit.... by a child? They use electricity from non-renewable power plants and contain massive batteries with a limited life that will need to be treated carefully as hazardous waste (no means of recycling or reuseing either) because of the really nasty chemicals they contain.
The only real and sustainable future for non-hydrocarbon personal transport is a renewable energy source to generate hydrogen for a fuel cell powered car. Of course you will still require the distribution and supply network to be established but the technology is here now. Would be of benefit to cash-strapped Iceland as well, they could use the massive amount of energy that is available free under the thin part of the earths crust they occupy.
 
millomite said:
They use electricity from non-renewable power plants and contain massive batteries with a limited life that will need to be treated carefully as hazardous waste (no means of recycling or reuseing either) because of the really nasty chemicals they contain.
The only real and sustainable future for non-hydrocarbon personal transport is a renewable energy source to generate hydrogen for a fuel cell powered car.
Click to expand...

You've been watching too much Top Gear. Due to the greater efficiency of power plants over combustion engines, the pollution at the power plant is miniscule compared to what comes out of a cars exhaust, and the cost is tiny, even with rising electricity prices. As the CEO of Tesla says, the day you drive your electric car out of the show room is the dirtiest it will ever be in terms of pollution. It is a heck of a lot easier to improve one power station than to fix hundreds of thousands of cars, and it is possible now to sign up to 100% renewable electricity deals.

The batteries are recyclable and reusable, so I've no idea why you're claiming they aren't http://tinyurl.com/275bfqu and Toyota offers an 8 year warranty on the batteries in the Prius.

As for hydrogen cars, they have been 5 years away for the last 50 years. I read a marketing article from the 1960's earlier this year, stating that the petroleum industry and electricty generators had backed themselves into a corner and were going into decline, because by 1970 our houses and cars would all be run on hydrogen fuel cells.

How are you going to produce the hydrogen? It will need massive amounts of electricity, which would be more efficient to put directly into the grid.

I'd rather have a battery pack in my car than a highly flammable gas like hydrogen.
 
Ignoring the implied insult that I get my information from Top Gear (where do you get yours from, Tesla website?). In my opinion, and that of the many environmental professionals I work with, I wouldn't profess to be green driving any of the current "electric cars" produced at the moment. I am aware that it is easier to control emissions from a point source like a power station but that plant still uses a non-renewable resource and only 4% of the total is from renewable sources.

The point I was making is that a truly renewable and sustainable source of energy (with trivial pollution) is hydrogen generated using renewable sources, which in the case of Iceland can come easily from the abundance of geothermal energy available to them. As for it has "been 5 years away for the last 50 years" (you have probably read that statement when applied to fusion power) the criticism is applicable to this case as well. Until it is seen by the commercial world we all live in as a potential source of revenue and is supported by a major government, it won't get the backing.

Buying one of the green cars for sale at the moment just assuages peoples guilt and lines the pockets of the car makers.
 
millomite said:
The point I was making is that a truly renewable and sustainable source of energy (with trivial pollution) is hydrogen generated using renewable sources
Click to expand...

Why bother using all the electricity to produce hydrogen when you can just use it to run the cars direct? You'd have to create a vast new infrastructure to manufacture/distribute/store/dispense the hydrogen, a highly flammable gas. By going directly electric, the distribution network is already there, and we lose far less of the energy available from whatever source we are using by cutting out two steps of energy conversion.
 
DougalLongfoot said:
millomite said:
The point I was making is that a truly renewable and sustainable source of energy (with trivial pollution) is hydrogen generated using renewable sources
Click to expand...

Why bother using all the electricity to produce hydrogen when you can just use it to run the cars direct? You'd have to create a vast new infrastructure to manufacture/distribute/store/dispense the hydrogen, a highly flammable gas. By going directly electric, the distribution network is already there, and we lose far less of the energy available from whatever source we are using by cutting out two steps of energy conversion.
Click to expand...

Aren't batteries terribly inefficient? First you've got to make them, and then you've got to charge them up. A lot of power and time is wasted in charging them up.

Hydrogen power is almost infinitely sustainable, whereas battery technology depends very much on decreasingly-available minerals mined at great expense.
 
Mythopoeika said:
Aren't batteries terribly inefficient? First you've got to make them, and then you've got to charge them up. A lot of power and time is wasted in charging them up.

Hydrogen power is almost infinitely sustainable, whereas battery technology depends very much on decreasingly-available minerals mined at great expense.
Click to expand...

Grid to Motor efficiency of an electric car using Li-ion batteries = 86%
Grid to motor efficiency of a hydrogen car using hydrogen from water electrolysis = 25%

Tesla Roadster = 1.14 km/MJ & 12.6 g/km of CO2
Honda Clarity = 0.35 km/MJ & 41.1 g/km of CO2 (worse than a current small diesel or petrol car)

Figures calculated assuming a natural gas fired power station for both vehicles.

Honda is planning on having a commercial hydrogen fuel cell car on the market by 2018 (the Clarity is NOT for sale, you can lease it for $600/month, if you live in southern California). I can drive my car an hour up the road today and get it converted to fully electric.

The Mitsubishi i-miev can get an 85% charge in 15 minutes, and the Tesla Model S has a battery pack that can be changed in 5 minutes.

As for the minerals needed, I've already shown that the batteries can be recycled, and what are you planning on making your hydrogen fuelled cars from? Wood and canvas?
 
Guess this fits here:

Renault 'green' advert rapped by watchdog

Renault said it expected to sell more vehicles in France than in the UK
A Renault advert has been banned in the UK by a watchdog after the car firm claimed it was reducing CO2 emissions using French electricity figures.

The advert said the electric Renault Fluence Z.E. would cut emissions by 90% compared with a diesel model.

But the Advertising Standards Agency upheld a complaint that the French electricity generation mix emitted less C02 than that produced in the UK.

Renault had rejected the claim that its advert had been misleading.

The advert in the national press ad had claimed that "the well-to-wheel efficiency of a Renault Fluence Z.E. will help reduce CO2 emissions by at least 90% compared to a current diesel model".

Its small print said the calculation was based on the "French average electric mix" - prompting a reader to complain to the ASA.

Renault insisted its figures were not misleading because it expected to sell significantly more vehicles in France than in the UK.

It also said there were a number of electricity providers in the UK which offered carbon-free or reduced-carbon tariffs, meaning consumers could buy energy with CO2 emissions similar to the French average mix.

But the ASA ruled that readers were unlikely to understand the difference between electricity generating mixes in France and the UK and how this would affect CO2 savings.

"Because the figure was not representative of CO2 savings typically available in the UK, we concluded that the ad was likely to mislead," the ASA said.

It ruled that the ad must not appear again in its current form.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8660423.stm

This article is not very illuminating unless you know that 78.8% of French electricity is generated by nuclear power!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France
 
DougalLongfoot said:
Mythopoeika said:
Aren't batteries terribly inefficient? First you've got to make them, and then you've got to charge them up. A lot of power and time is wasted in charging them up.

Hydrogen power is almost infinitely sustainable, whereas battery technology depends very much on decreasingly-available minerals mined at great expense.
Click to expand...

Grid to Motor efficiency of an electric car using Li-ion batteries = 86%
Grid to motor efficiency of a hydrogen car using hydrogen from water electrolysis = 25%

Tesla Roadster = 1.14 km/MJ & 12.6 g/km of CO2
Honda Clarity = 0.35 km/MJ & 41.1 g/km of CO2 (worse than a current small diesel or petrol car)

Figures calculated assuming a natural gas fired power station for both vehicles.

Honda is planning on having a commercial hydrogen fuel cell car on the market by 2018 (the Clarity is NOT for sale, you can lease it for $600/month, if you live in southern California). I can drive my car an hour up the road today and get it converted to fully electric.

The Mitsubishi i-miev can get an 85% charge in 15 minutes, and the Tesla Model S has a battery pack that can be changed in 5 minutes.

As for the minerals needed, I've already shown that the batteries can be recycled, and what are you planning on making your hydrogen fuelled cars from? Wood and canvas?
Click to expand...

I wasn't particularly thinking of fuel cell hydrogen cars - once again, they use rare, expensive minerals - I was thinking of cars that simply burn hydrogen.
 
All good points and very constructively researched and posted - thank you all.

Where does that put the 'Leaf' though? In my eyes, although a noble venture (inasmuch as Nissan are at least taking the first steps towards embracing a technology which will reduce the airborne pollution in our streets), it is still a long way off the ideal. -

A sub 5 minute recharge
A range in excess of 350 miles.
Recyclable construction for both vehicle and battery (or fuel cell).
Well designed, practical, and desirable aesthetically.
Affordable (cheaper than burning stuff at least)

It seems to me that seperately, all the ideal bits exist but need to be all put together in one unit.
I feel a mention towards the US prize thing that's been announced recently (flying car thing - is it DARPA or xprize? If someone wants to add a link, ta) is also required, as this is the sort of approach that would put some momentum into R&D of replacements for fossil fuels - offer a prize for fulfilling all those ideals.
 
trevp66 said:
A sub 5 minute recharge
A range in excess of 350 miles.
Recyclable construction for both vehicle and battery (or fuel cell).
Well designed, practical, and desirable aesthetically.
Affordable (cheaper than burning stuff at least)
Click to expand...

If all of that is possible, that would be ideal. Ah, if only...
 
Mythopoeika said:
I wasn't particularly thinking of fuel cell hydrogen cars - once again, they use rare, expensive minerals - I was thinking of cars that simply burn hydrogen.
Click to expand...

You have seen the footage of the Hindenburg haven't you? Where are you going to get all that hydrogen from? You either have to strip it from natural gas or use electrolysis on water. The first option, we might as well burn the natural gas anyway, and both options we would need more electricity than if we just used the electricity to charge the cars directly.
 
Just to throw in another problem with hydrogen, it has a very poor energy density by volume.

The problems of storage, transport and decanting are not inconsiderable.

Storage of cryogenic slush, keeping it cool in vehicle and the dangers of urban refuelling stations are just a few things that spring to mind.
 
Power density is the most important thing in a moving vehicle, which needs to economise on weight.

Burning a fuel halves the mass required to store energy because you get half of the reactant (oxygen) from the air. For this reason the most power-dense form of chemical energy storage is a hydrocarbon liquid, just like petrol, strangely enough. Instead of making hydrogen to burn in cars and planes, we should be concentrating on synthesising an energy-dense liquid fuel to burn in oxygen.
 
Leaf, whos going to buy a car named Leaf???

These cars are designed by car haters.
 
US: Hawaii named early launch state for Nissan Leaf

Hawaii has been selected as one of the initial markets for Nissan’s upcoming Leaf electric vehicle. The eco-friendly model is scheduled to arrive in the US starting in early 2011.

Nissan and the State of Hawaii are working to promote the development of an electric vehicle network. The state must import all of its gasoline and petroleum products, making for inflated fuel prices

etc...

http://www.automotiveworld.com/news...waii-named-early-launch-state-for-nissan-leaf

I'm assuming these will be made in the UK then shipped out there? That's not very eco-friendly.
 
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